Clarification - are we allowed to post links to products?

[Cory]

4 hours ago, braids said:

@Cory

We need help Batman. We don't know what is allowable and what isn't. Following is kind of a summary of the questions people are posing:

The guidelines are confusing.

From the guidlines:

"Links to competitors are not prohibited. Amazon, Ebay, and Aquabid are approved, as long as they aren't intentionally advertising."

Is it supposed to say:  Links to competitors are prohibited. ? As in links to competitors are prohibited except Amazon, eBay, and Aquabid.

(Which I personally find confusing given the small business gobbling machine that Amazon is, and how contrary they are in their business practices to the values that AC represents)

From your comment above:

That's a direct conflict of what the guidelines say. The guidelines read "links to competitors are not prohibted".

The reason I link to a specific product is so there is no confusion as to what product and features it has. I abhor having my time, and other peoples time wasted because of assumptions, misunderstandings, confusion or labeling differences. Similar to providing a citation.

@Patrick M. Bodega Aquatics asked about things AC doesn't carry. At first I thought well that would be okay because its on eBay. But you'd have to site a specific seller because lots of people sell that product.

But then I would site what you said previously about the heaters - because we don't know what you're working on in the Batcave - so to speak. So we could be unknowingly be referencing a product or resource in development.

Keeping in mind we don't know what you have going on behind the scenes or because it gets mentioned in one social media form, does not mean we all know about it.

 

 

I have the same question as @Hobbit about referencing educational works, documents, comments of other youtubers, vloggers, etc. 

For instance: I found a fantastic plant deficiencies chart - I can't remember if I ended up posting it or not. Because not crediting the source is like stealing. I post links to your videos all over the internet whenever I say "Cory from Aquarium Co-op says..."

If we can't site data then anyone can say anything without having to or being able to back it up. If we can't reference other ideas, concepts, etc people have to operate in an echo chamber of sorts. And there will be debates and back and forths (which can be carried out in a respectful way), but people are certainly going to have a difference of opinion.

I know raising questions like this is not comfortable for everyone, but neither is being unsure of what is allowed and not allowed. And conversely seeing people posting links to competitors and siting other vlogs and sites/data that may cause debate among folks is probably unpleasant as well.

We need to flesh this out. We just need to know what the rules are so we can play by them.

 

🥚I feel like I'm typing on eggshells. This makes me sad.

 

 

 

I feel like this is becoming too difficult. Where are you seeing that it says links to competitors are not prohibited? This was corrected the first time you brought it up. Is there somewhere else besides the guidelines it's showing?

If you want to link to a heater on amazon or ebay, just link the specific link. There is no need to say who is selling it.  this is the first example of heater on ebay. 

25/50/100/200/300/500W Aquarium Heater with Cover Guard Anti-Explosion Fish Tank

WWW.EBAY.COM

---

Plastic cover protects fish, turtles, frogs, etc from burning. Also protect heater from accidental breakage. Length of Heater. 1 piece of Aquarium Heater Cover Guard. The use of multiple heaters in larger aquariums can allow...

 

Educational blogs and other sources are fine as long as they are a competitor to the products we sell. The same goes for youtubers. So linking to bulk reef supply's youtube isn't allowed. Linking to an education study from a school would be allowed. Linking to say a different website that sells dry goods with a blog wouldn't. 

Also your comment about the echo chamber is exactly what we do want. You want like minded people around as that's a forum. We've already done this by saying it's about aquariums, with respect. 

Again if you feel like this too confusing, unwelcoming or something else there are thousands of other communities online. It's not my goal to make the perfect forum for each and every aquarist. It's to make something I can maintain and help people.

[Ken Burke]

4 minutes ago, Streetwise said:

I like being a part of this forum. I try to share my experience, and I don't feel like I have anything to prove. @Cory, thanks for hosting.

I’ll second that.  

[Aubrey]

I think some rules have to be confusing. They serve their purpose, but allow for some interpretation and leeway. Clarification wouldn't allow any leeway. This may be semantics, but they are labeled guidlines not laws.

I think our perspective is what might be confusing some of us. In the scope of fish tube, Aquarium Co-Op is a big fish in a small pond. In the scope of major aquarium related retailers, I can't really speak definitively on this only speculatively based on the fact that there is only one warehouse and Cory is using his home for storage, Aquarium Co-Op is a small fish in a big pond. I think at their current stage and with goals of staying true to hobbyists and growing the hobby, things on this forum can't be as free as we all might like. But this is the cost of doing things differently and right, and how they are growing to be a big fish in a big pond.

And I was trying to find items I have purchased from other retailers that aren't also available on Amazon or eBay and could not do it. One example that I think would be against the guidelines is that aquatic arts sells on Amazon, yet I imagine is a competitor. Clearly having a guideline protecting Aquarium Co-Op's bottom is important, but being completely definitive in regards to acceptable links would be next to impossible or at the very least not worth the time writing it all out.

All in all, I really enjoy this community. I like being able to interact with other Aquarium Co-Op fans and employees and share my hobby with them. 

 

[Hobbit]

Thanks for those clarifications Cory. As a forum manager myself I know it’s really hard to create rules that get at what you want while also being consistent, easy to understand, and specific enough that people know what to do. The forum I manage has been running for three years and we’re still constantly adjusting the guidelines, which by now are pretty long with links to further FAQ pages. But we are a paid program dealing with teenagers, and if they don’t have specific rules they ask me one million questions until I make something specific.

I think as an open forum of mostly adults we won’t need that level of specificity, but we may still ask a bunch of questions once in a while. 😉

I asked my question because I really just want to do what you want. I know people post to educational articles and link to products and such all the time, but I don’t just want to follow the crowd if it goes against your vision for this place. Like @Daniel said, you really don’t seem censor heavy so I didn’t want to assume something just based on crowd behavior.

What I *do* assume based on crowd behavior is that this is a super positive, welcoming, helpful community where we can come and have fun sharing stories about our fish. And I hope that sort of echo chamber of kindness continues for many years!

[ChefConfit]

@Cory I think you and the team at the coop are doing an amazing job with the forum, and it has helped my hobby more than I could have ever thought. And I can't thank you enough for all you do. The rules have been clarified multiple times now in multiple posts(including one of my own where I asked for clarification), so if people are still confused after being pointed to those posts this may not be the right forum for them. As you've said there are plenty out there. 

@braids and anyone else who is confused by the rules. Heres ways I'd deal with needing to direct people to a specific product when it is relevant to a post. 

1 just say the name of the product and let people google it if they don't already know what it is. 

2 find a product page and zoom in on the relevant info for a screenshot (so that you aren't showing what website the info comes from) and add it to the post.

3 if you absolutely feel a link to a product page is necessary for the post, find a product page on a non retail website (one where you can't actually purchase the product) such as the manufactures website and post that link. 

What you can't do is post a link to that product on petcos website.

There's also some common sense to use. Links to retail sites are perfectly acceptable in the things you've bought recently that you recommend thread in the non aquarium related section of the forum. 

The only grey area I can really see some confusion in is websites that are affiliated with the coop in some capacity but are technically competitors such as a brand ambassadors website. 

That's just my way of laying it out as plainly as possible in my understanding of the rules.

[Mr. Ed's Aquatics]

8 hours ago, Daniel said:

I think the best evidence of lack of censorship on this forum is to look back at all the posts since that first day on July 14th, and look at all the links that have been posted and all the products that have mentioned and ask yourself, does this look like a forum that is trying censor a free discussion?

It can be tricky to the keep a place like this as kind and helpful as it has been since that first day July 14th, but I think it has worked amazing well.

 

 

 

I'm not trying to be difficult, but this reply kinda implies I'm full of S*** and this didn't happen.... then in Cory's reply, he mentioned the situation, and mentioned deleted posts. I know I'm not crazy, I legit had posts (mid conversation) deleted and don't know why I'd make that up. I stopped posting regularly when it happened again (and I was sick w/ CV19 and a little worried I was going to die).

Now, I am not trying to slam the Co-op or Cory. I buy quite a bit from them, I'm a member of his channel and I regularly donate on his streams. I'm a fan and recommend both his website and brick and mortar to my own customers. 

At the end of the day, the content here is moderated (they have mods), posts can and are removed (for whatever reason) and in my personal experience, content with links to other companies can go "missing" without explanation. 

I don't care though, I only asked about it after the 1st time it happened so that I could follow any rules and not upset anyone from the Coop. I continue to try to help when I can and share neat ideas or projects now that I'm feeling better. I even altered my own behavior and only posted a picture of what I was talking about in my newest post DIY light screen instead of direct links.

I still think you're better off not posting direct to other companies. Whether or not it's "against the rules".

[Daniel]

@Mr. Ed's AquaticsI have no doubt the post you mentioned disappeared. My intent is not and was not to say or imply you aren't trustworthy or that what you mentioned about a deleted post wasn't true. Anyone who reads this forum knows that you post high quality, helpful material.

And yes the content here is lightly moderated. I think my intent is summed up by the old maxim "never assume malice when incompetence will suffice." Meaning, whatever mistakes are made in the moderation the intent is good, even if the execution can flawed.

At the end of day, the primary rule for this forum is to be kind and helpful. This is what makes the forum the safe and inviting place that it is.

 

 

 

 

[Mike_M]

I think people might not fully recognize that this is a business's forum. Cory's decision to create this forum was no doubt, at least in large part, a business decision. He has people contacting the coop all the time saying "my neon tetras look weird! Are they dying? What's going on??" Etc. With this forum they can direct this sort of thing here. We can answer these types of questions for these people, and also discuss all kinds of other things related to our hobby/obsession and have a good time. What I think he wants to avoid is it becoming counter productive for him by it getting loaded with what basically amounts to advertisements for other retailers, or for products he doesn't recommend or sell. This is the aquarium coop forum. Obviously we shouldn't say "hey they have a sale on vallisneria on blankety blank.com go get some!"

Not having very clearly defined rules is going to be tough. It's the internet. People need rules or things can get crazy. 😄

[Tanked]

There is a little bit of fuzz on the guide lines. A little common sense will keep you inside the lines.

Intentionally or otherwise, a link to another retail site that sells fish/aquarium products, or mentioning that company's name, is promoting the other guy.  It is not fair to your host. It is that simple.

 

 

[pedrofisk]

It's a tricky balance between a pure corporate forum only about the companies products, think Quickbooks, and a pure hobbyist run forum, like say a model train forum. I appreciate that @Cory is trying to find that balance. However there is always going to be confusion and these questions will keep coming up as new people join. It's just going to be an ongoing thing and confusion should be expected. The "seasoned" members should try to help clarify for the new members whenever we can.

[TheDukeAnumber1]

4 hours ago, Daniel said:

And yes the content here is lightly moderated. I think my intent is summed up by the old maxim "never assume malice when incompetence will suffice." Meaning, whatever mistakes are made in the moderation the intent is good, even if the execution can flawed.

 

I frequently remind myself to use Hanlon's Razor too 🙂

[Brandy]

😄I think I am a living breathing example--not a malicious bone in my body but SEVERAL stupid ones.

[braids]

On 12/21/2020 at 11:02 PM, ChefConfit said:

@Cory I think you and the team at the coop are doing an amazing job with the forum, and it has helped my hobby more than I could have ever thought. And I can't thank you enough for all you do. The rules have been clarified multiple times now in multiple posts(including one of my own where I asked for clarification), so if people are still confused after being pointed to those posts this may not be the right forum for them. As you've said there are plenty out there. 

@braids and anyone else who is confused by the rules. Heres ways I'd deal with needing to direct people to a specific product when it is relevant to a post. 

1 just say the name of the product and let people google it if they don't already know what it is. 

2 find a product page and zoom in on the relevant info for a screenshot (so that you aren't showing what website the info comes from) and add it to the post.

3 if you absolutely feel a link to a product page is necessary for the post, find a product page on a non retail website (one where you can't actually purchase the product) such as the manufactures website and post that link. 

What you can't do is post a link to that product on petcos website.

There's also some common sense to use. Links to retail sites are perfectly acceptable in the things you've bought recently that you recommend thread in the non aquarium related section of the forum. 

The only grey area I can really see some confusion in is websites that are affiliated with the coop in some capacity but are technically competitors such as a brand ambassadors website. 

That's just my way of laying it out as plainly as possible in my understanding of the rules.

I was only confused about the guidelines because they were written in a confusing way. Which is why I asked for clarification. Clearly I was not the only one who was confused.  I repeatedly mentioned my desire to follow guidelines. I'm deducing, since not outright mentioned, that they have since been edited. I have spent plenty of money with Co-op myself - somewhere in the neighborhood of $400-$500 in the last 3 orders, and shared link upon link upon link to videos and Co-op products, and sung praises elsewhere.

Like Hobbit mentioned, I too, was seeing other people posting links, and it made me question if this was okay or not. Which is why I asked. But as so often is the case, the messenger is shot. Cory's suggestion that I am not a good fit for this forum was not lost on me. It actually broke my heart a little. I hope that this will benefit future people that join this forum.

There certainly are other communities and other businesses I can support.

The revised guidelines:

Care stands for Community Aquarists Respect Each Other.

• First and foremost, be kind and helpful to one another on the forum.
• Use language that is suitable for a young hobbyist.
• Profanity is prohibited.
• We don't discuss Race, Religion, or Politics.
• We don't discuss other aquarium related companies both positively or negatively. 
• Don't self promote your Social media sites, brand or business.
• Links to competitors are prohibited. Amazon.com, Ebay.com, Aquabid.com, and Aquahuna.com are approved.
• No selling or giving away aquarium related supplies or animals.
• Don't "bump" a post to the top of the forum.
• Write meaningful replies, instead of writing "cool" or "lol" write something that contributes to the thread. You can always thank someone by giving them reputation.
• If you have a problem with an order from Aquarium Co-Op, contact customer service. The forum isn't the avenue for order help.
• Moderators will be forced to make judgement calls. Prior actions on the forum will be taken into account. This will allow someone to slip up and use profanity, without getting banned. However a pattern of slipping up while advertising, more than once is a track record that would result in a Ban.

Edited December 25, 2020 by braids

[Mike_M]

20 hours ago, braids said:

I was only confused about the guidelines because they were written in a confusing way. Which is why I asked for clarification. Clearly I was not the only one who was confused.  I repeatedly mentioned my desire to follow guidelines. I'm deducing, since not outright mentioned, that they have since been edited. 

He said they have been edited.

On 12/21/2020 at 6:57 PM, Cory said:

I feel like this is becoming too difficult. Where are you seeing that it says links to competitors are not prohibited? This was corrected the first time you brought it up. Is there somewhere else besides the guidelines it's showing? 

If that isn't "outright mentioning" I don't know what is.

[lefty o]

i would tend to think that one should shy away from things that could potentially take sales away from the forum owner/sponsor. to me , that means dont directly mention competitors, and dont link to competitors sites. i see it as common courtesy to the owner of the site. fact is, if you mention a product by name/model, we can all google it in seconds and see exactly what it is, and all the many places that sell it.

[starsman20]

Not sure if this will help or not and I certainly don't want to stir the pot any more but  I have had a few post disappear as well and I have identified which ones and why.  It only happens when I post or reply from my phone using the My Communities App.  If I am in a browser, whether on the phone or PC,  they always work.   I think when I loaded the app there was something about it being in beta release, I don't fully remember but could this be the issue? or at least an issue?  Buggy App?