Clarification - are we allowed to post links to products?

[braids]

I find products at various places - usually Petco, Petsmart, and Chewy, and want to reference them in conversation specifically because of information contained within the listing, but I don't want to be in violation of the rules. Or in another case I found a website that provides information on native fish that also sells them for aquarists and pond stocking - can I post that kind of link?

 

From the guidlines:

"Links to competitors are not prohibited. Amazon, Ebay, and Aquabid are approved, as long as they aren't intentionally advertising."

The way this is written leaves me a bit confused because it says they aren't prohibited and the following are approved. I'm confused by that. If links of competitors aren't prohibited why would those three be approved? It almost sounds that those are exclusively approved but others aren't. I think it's the usage of language that is confusing.

This would clear it up [to me] if it is the intention:

"Links to competitors are allowed including Amazon, eBay, and Aquabid as long as they aren't intentionally posted for the purpose of advertising."

 

I would be interested in learning about other resources (of course I always shop the Co-op first lol!) that are perhaps a bit more obscure, geared to aquarists or regional.

 

I hope an admin/mod type will respond to this post! Thanks in Advance!

braids

 

[FrozenFins]

I beleive it is allowed, I have linked products in posts before.

I bet ya @Cory would know

Edited December 17, 2020 by James Black

[braids]

1 minute ago, James Black said:

I beleive it is allowed, I have linked products in posts before.

I bet ya @Cory would know

Lol - I'm sure he would - just didn't want to tag him for my petty confusion! Busy man!

[Cory]

Competitor links outside of the ones listed are prohibited. If we have too many links going out, we'll have to turn off all links. Currently I'd like to keep this forum informational. Linking to competitors products and leading people away from the site affects our bottom line unfortunately.

[Aubrey]

So the link is the issue? Could a screenshot be used instead? As long as it is purely for informational purposes and does not redirect anyone from this site? In @braids' case where it's only information about a product or fish could this be an acceptable work around?

 

 

 

[Cory]

The link is only part of the issue. This forum is to discuss the hobby. Specific websites shouldn't need to be referenced to do that. We are trying to strike a balance between letting people converse and having to crack down on things. We've been very lax thus far, it's much better when it's few and far between. 

Something as seemingly harmless as this without even posting a link can send business away.  It's disheartening when our employees here "I saw X on the forum so I bought it" then come into our store and ask for help regarding it and other things. I know these posts aren't made to lead people away and to help, however there is always a flip side as well. Then there are the unintended customer service questions, like I saw you posted that tanks were on sale at petco. My petco is sold out. When will they do the deal again?

 

[braids]

@Cory

I hope I can express this in a way to be understood as not trying to be argumentative because that is totally not my intention.  I just don't know how you can have an open forum and not end up with discussions with a larger scope.  This is a world wide platform.  Unless you take back to only locals can join and it's private. 

Here's an example of a situation I am in - I do go first to Aqarium Coops site,  but I can't always find what I need or what fits for my situation.

I'm prepping setting up my 125. I check AC - no heaters available.  I search forum - no discussion. I see the what's available on the afore mentioned sites.

Not familiar with what's there, and not crazy about the selection I'm looking for some direction.

So I come back here hoping to have conversation, share what I've seen, get feedback, learn what more experienced aquariusts experience has been - what they used,  the draw backs,  the success,  the failures in a respectful environment (that's a huge caveat!). How do we do that without discussing products that are not in the scope of what AC carries?

I'm trying to tread lightly here and do my best to explain - I don't want to get booted, because I have a HUGE appreciation for what Cory and Candi have built - and the WAY they've built the business,  and the VALUES behind those decisions and choices.  The healthcare benefit being provided for the employees+ is huge to me. That's the stuff that makes me choose to buy from a small, growing, independent owned shop and sing its praises every chance I get.

I value the videos, the product testing, the educating,  everything that embodies Aquarium Co-op. 

 

Thanks for reading my novel 🙂

*you could literally track my history and find that scenario.

**I don't shop ⅔ of the approved links.

[Brandy]

@braids I think I have seen some discussions of the type @Cory would prefer that would still get you the information you need.

I have seen numerous posts about favorite (or hated) heaters for instance, pros and cons of certain filtration methods and brands, lighting, etc. I recently asked everyone for suggestions on large wet-pet fish. I got tons of suggestions, but I never asked them where to find said fish, or where to get a good price on the fish. I know Aquarium Co-op mostly sells smaller community fish, so I will likely have to find my fish elsewhere, even though I am local. I think the point is talk about what you like, ask what other people like, but do your own shopping legwork. 

However, I admit I have made the mistake of letting people know about sales--the dollar per gallon sale Cory mentions above. My intent was a public service announcement, but I did not have any grasp of how that would have unintended consequences for the ACO customer service team. I appreciate knowing that, because it makes it easier to understand the logic behind the guidelines, and makes me hopefully better at making the right decisions to support the community.

[Cory]

I understand your position @braids. I still don’t see how linking to a competitors website will help you with heaters? I’ve never stated that products we don’t carry can’t be talked about. You just can’t link to them or mention competitors that sell them that are not approved.
 

You can talk about eheim heaters, fluval heaters, aqueon  heaters, unbranded heaters on amazon and eBay etc. You just can’t directly link to the heater on say petco.

This undermines the work we do. I’ve been testing heaters for the better part of a year with the team and making revisions and when it’s right we will release them to the world. In the meantime we don’t want a bunch of links to competitors selling heaters to undermine our efforts.

Also again, anything on our website, even the forum, the internet holds us accountable. So if the website says heater from website xyz.com is the best. And it cooks all of their fish. They will email our customer service saying they trusted us and will no longer shop with us for having misinformation on our website. It’s a unfortunate side effect for us. However I believe the forum helps many people and thus if we can avoid sending people away, we can at least offer the customer service level we do to them. Daily people ask for help because they bought products we carry from a competitor and they won’t honor a warranty or answer their questions. 

[Cory]

3 minutes ago, Brandy said:

@braids I think I have seen some discussions of the type @Cory would prefer that would still get you the information you need.

I have seen numerous posts about favorite (or hated) heaters for instance, pros and cons of certain filtration methods and brands, lighting, etc. I recently asked everyone for suggestions on large wet-pet fish. I got tons of suggestions, but I never asked them where to find said fish, or where to get a good price on the fish. I know Aquarium Co-op mostly sells smaller community fish, so I will likely have to find my fish elsewhere, even though I am local. I think the point is talk about what you like, ask what other people like, but do your own shopping legwork. 

However, I admit I have made the mistake of letting people know about sales--the dollar per gallon sale Cory mentions above. My intent was a public service announcement, but I did not have any grasp of how that would have unintended consequences for the ACO customer service team. I appreciate knowing that, because it makes it easier to understand the logic behind the guidelines, and makes me hopefully better at making the right decisions to support the community.

Not to worry, we realize that everyone is trying to help. The dollar per gallon sale plagued our customer service long before the forum. It was merely one example. It just changed from people emailing asking to when the next one was, to ask  if us how often they restock and when the next one will be lol.

[Levi_Aquatics]

Sorry @Cory, I did not realize my post was hurtful to the Co-op. I totally understand where you are coming from and will try in the future to not do that again.

[Ken]

10 hours ago, Cory said:

I’ve been testing heaters for the better part of a year with the team and making revisions and when it’s right we will release them to the world.

I'll bet I'm not alone in hoping this happens before I need another.🙂

[Jollypop4321]

Ran into the heater situation a few months back.  I went to the co-op first but they were out.  Had to get it elsewhere but was not happy about it.  I’d rather support the coop when I can

[braids]

11 hours ago, Ken said:

I'll bet I'm not alone in hoping this happens before I need another.🙂

You are not.  I can guarentee you that! Heaters are a major frustration and exactly why I went to thre Co-op site first. Because I trust Cory in product design and choice. Because he sciences! 😁 I begrudgingly looked elsewhere.

[Alison]

On 12/17/2020 at 11:49 AM, Cory said:

Not to worry, we realize that everyone is trying to help. The dollar per gallon sale plagued our customer service long before the forum. It was merely one example. It just changed from people emailing asking to when the next one was, to ask  if us how often they restock and when the next one will be lol.

Every retail establishment has their thing. I used to work at Walgreens and people would come in and ask me how much something cost at Meijer or if Walmart carried such and such.... Well I just don't know that as I'm not an employee at either location lol. Some people were rude and a lot were just... surprised when I couldn't quote prices from another store.

 

[Aubrey]

4 hours ago, Alison said:

people would come in and ask me how much something cost at Meijer or if Walmart carried such and such....

Yes! I worked retail for 10+ years, and the general public expects the person with a name tag and uniform to know everything about everything. If I had time I would just look things up on my phone or call another store, but then tell them that they should factor in time and gas prices to go somewhere else. I mean, I guess there is no harm in asking and you can't know until you ask, but c'mon people if I could look something up or find out with a phone call then you could have also.

[Hobbit]

I have a question along these lines. What about links to educational articles and videos? Should we be limiting our educational links to the co-op, or is it okay to link to other youtubers and bloggers and forums and such?

[Alison]

7 hours ago, Aubrey said:

Yes! I worked retail for 10+ years, and the general public expects the person with a name tag and uniform to know everything about everything. If I had time I would just look things up on my phone or call another store, but then tell them that they should factor in time and gas prices to go somewhere else. I mean, I guess there is no harm in asking and you can't know until you ask, but c'mon people if I could look something up or find out with a phone call then you could have also.

Right? It drove me mad. I was generally always over worked and understaffed so I didn't look stuff up for them. Partly because thr Walmart and Meijer were literally less than 2 miles away like really?  I'd call other walgreens to chase down stock but I'm not calling other retailers. I stayed in retail for almost 20 years to the day before switching to a credit union. Odd change but its ever so much better than retail retail.

[Patrick M. Bodega Aquatics]

So I have another question, can we ask for how someone felt about a thing the the co op doesn't offer? For example if I wanted to know how someone thought of buying driftwood off of ebay would I be allowed to do that?

[braids]

@Cory

We need help Batman. We don't know what is allowable and what isn't. Following is kind of a summary of the questions people are posing:

The guidelines are confusing.

From the guidlines:

"Links to competitors are not prohibited. Amazon, Ebay, and Aquabid are approved, as long as they aren't intentionally advertising."

Is it supposed to say:  Links to competitors are prohibited. ? As in links to competitors are prohibited except Amazon, eBay, and Aquabid.

(Which I personally find confusing given the small business gobbling machine that Amazon is, and how contrary they are in their business practices to the values that AC represents)

From your comment above:

Quote

Cory: "You can talk about eheim heaters, fluval heaters, aqueon  heaters, unbranded heaters on amazon and eBay etc. You just can’t directly link to the heater on say petco."

That's a direct conflict of what the guidelines say. The guidelines read "links to competitors are not prohibted".

The reason I link to a specific product is so there is no confusion as to what product and features it has. I abhor having my time, and other peoples time wasted because of assumptions, misunderstandings, confusion or labeling differences. Similar to providing a citation.

@Patrick M. Bodega Aquatics asked about things AC doesn't carry. At first I thought well that would be okay because its on eBay. But you'd have to site a specific seller because lots of people sell that product.

But then I would site what you said previously about the heaters - because we don't know what you're working on in the Batcave - so to speak. So we could be unknowingly be referencing a product or resource in development.

Keeping in mind we don't know what you have going on behind the scenes or because it gets mentioned in one social media form, does not mean we all know about it.

 

Quote

Cory: This undermines the work we do. I’ve been testing heaters for the better part of a year with the team and making revisions and when it’s right we will release them to the world. In the meantime we don’t want a bunch of links to competitors selling heaters to undermine our efforts.

 

I have the same question as @Hobbit about referencing educational works, documents, comments of other youtubers, vloggers, etc. 

For instance: I found a fantastic plant deficiencies chart - I can't remember if I ended up posting it or not. Because not crediting the source is like stealing. I post links to your videos all over the internet whenever I say "Cory from Aquarium Co-op says..."

If we can't site data then anyone can say anything without having to or being able to back it up. If we can't reference other ideas, concepts, etc people have to operate in an echo chamber of sorts. And there will be debates and back and forths (which can be carried out in a respectful way), but people are certainly going to have a difference of opinion.

I know raising questions like this is not comfortable for everyone, but neither is being unsure of what is allowed and not allowed. And conversely seeing people posting links to competitors and siting other vlogs and sites/data that may cause debate among folks is probably unpleasant as well.

We need to flesh this out. We just need to know what the rules are so we can play by them.

 

🥚I feel like I'm typing on eggshells. This makes me sad.

 

 

 

[Taco Playz]

@Cory would saying the name of a website and not using the link be bad. 

[Mr. Ed's Aquatics]

I've mentioned a product that is aquarium related and nothing close to what the Co-op sells and my posts vanished. (No link btw, just a mention)

I asked if they were censoring content after the 1st time and they played like they didn't do anything and didn't know what I was talking about. When it happened again (I clarified what was allowed) I just assumed they do and don't want to admit it. Kinda why I hadn't posted in a month.

I think the safe bet is if it's not a Co-op link, don't post it. 

[Daniel]

I think the best evidence of lack of censorship on this forum is to look back at all the posts since that first day on July 14th, and look at all the links that have been posted and all the products that have mentioned and ask yourself, does this look like a forum that is trying censor a free discussion?

It can be tricky to the keep a place like this as kind and helpful as it has been since that first day July 14th, but I think it has worked amazing well.

 

 

 

[Ken Burke]

I think the real trick is to remember @Cory is our host.  Through his business, he has invested both time and money to set up this forum in hopes that it build interest in the hobby, resulting in more hobbyists, and in turn building his business.  That is not the sole reason for his investment, evidenced by his personal efforts to help individuals with their issues and questions, but definitely a part of it.  
 

if he is our host, then we are guests, and we should keep that in mind when post things.  He has been very gracious, and is very understanding when we slip up.  Certainly we can reciprocate.

[Cory]

2 hours ago, Taco Playz said:

@Cory would saying the name of a website and not using the link be bad. 

I think it would be the same as using the link. 

The goal is to not have to define everything. Every time we are asked to define something, we are going to go with the side of caution.  I try to be as hands off as possible. If I'm forced to pick A or B, there is no room in between. A good example is, talking about goodieds, Greg Sage has been mentioned. He is a competitor to Aquahuna. We earn commissions often when people purchase from Aquahuna. We don't earn anything from Greg. Not that I would want to. I do like him and his business.

 

I look over that knowing it would have a very minimal impact on our business. Now if someone says, well you let that link or businesses be mentioned, and therefore I'm going to mention liveaquaria.com This has no upside to us as they are a direct competitor and don't have the track record that Greg does with our business.  

The goodied has a lot of great discussion in that thread that is of benefit to hobbyists.  This is completely opposite to XYZ company shipped me fish and they died, and should I fight them in email for a refund etc. That advertises the company and brings nothing good to the hobby.  One could argue that it's beneficial to know the companies that are not good. However who gets to be the judge on who is good or not? I don't a few instances would be a good representation. There are whole dedicated websites to reviews of companies, where people can find that information if they wish. 

I like to think we are a good honest company. I'd like to highlight why we make some choices. one being not being able to talk good or bad about our competitors. 

Here is a review that was left for us this month. 

Now, if this was a post on a forum somewhere, this is the one side of the story people would see. I don't wish this upon my competitors even. 

This is the initial contact that came in. 

A couple hours later we responded with:

7 days go by without a response from the customer. Then we get this.

We ask some more questions and offer a video to watch after identifying the algae. We respond within 1 hour and 50 minutes.

This is the next and last contact we got from the customer. 

 

So as you can see, it wasn't 24 hours for a response, we were trying to get to the root cause of the problem, making suggestion to help. This person if they spent $1,000 the majority wasn't with us. We tried helping, a week between responses initially didn't help. 

Trust me, I want to stifle the hobby the least amount possible and focus on the positive. While doing this I also need to make sure we remain profitable as we do spend money on this forum, mods, and more. If a good argument on why specific links are needed that are from a competitor help the conversation, I'm willing to entertain it. However I believe that the goal of this forum is discussing the hobby, which would be fish tanks, plants, science, scaping etc. Shouldn't need direct links to a competitors site to reference something that could be said. I'd use X filter, or Y heater. Not needing the site or name to be linked. Instead of I read or watched video on website X, you juts say, I read somewhere else that this is a thing, what are your experiences?

By no means are we perfect. I honestly still don't know what happened to Ed's Aquatics posts. I don't know if a different mod deleted, it was a forum bug when it was new etc. There is no record of it in the deleted content logs. We can try and do our best and offer what we can to the hobby, I understand if someone is doing it better than us out there and you'd rather spend your time there. For those that stay here, I will still post in the forum every day as I have been and helping as many as time allows me.  I hope this will clear up some things and not lead to more confusion. Know that I try to make the best decision with the information I have at my disposal.