Reverse Respiration

[Guppysnail]

On 3/29/2023 at 8:48 AM, DaveO said:

Back in November I RR'd a Java fern infested with black beard algae. I treated it for 12 hours then  put it back in the tank. The algae was only half gone. Unsatisfied, I retreated it again, one month later. This time for 16 hours. That did the trick. Here's  the fern three months later.

This is one of the most lush windelov java ferns I have seen. Just stunning. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Agreed! Whenever I see them they are always so scrawny looking.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Thanks @DaveO and @Guppysnail for your responses. Well, I can say the lighting is crappy in my post respiration container pic so the color of the algae is only slightly darker, it's already pretty dark algae. I'm hesitant to say what is underneath the algae is an uhealthy leaf- granted it's probably not doing well but even trying to pull and scrape off the algae the leaf is holding fast to the plant and seems healthy in the areas I can still see (under/stem). I'm wondering if it would be bad to run it through again so soon? Maybe trimming the leaves most effected would be best. I don't know. I would like to put it back in the tank. For now it sits in a container awaiting my decistion. 

[DaveO]

On 3/29/2023 at 12:27 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

Thanks @DaveO and @Guppysnail for your responses. Well, I can say the lighting is crappy in my post respiration container pic so the color of the algae is only slightly darker, it's already pretty dark algae. I'm hesitant to say what is underneath the algae is an uhealthy leaf- granted it's probably not doing well but even trying to pull and scrape off the algae the leaf is holding fast to the plant and seems healthy in the areas I can still see (under/stem). I'm wondering if it would be bad to run it through again so soon? Maybe trimming the leaves most effected would be best. I don't know. I would like to put it back in the tank. For now it sits in a container awaiting my decistion. 

I can only guess if it's harmful to retreat this soon, because I haven't done it . I think anubius are tough enough it wouldn't matter. If it were me I would wait a week then redo it. @Guppysnail may have the real answer.

[Guppysnail]

On 3/29/2023 at 1:27 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

Thanks @DaveO and @Guppysnail for your responses. Well, I can say the lighting is crappy in my post respiration container pic so the color of the algae is only slightly darker, it's already pretty dark algae. I'm hesitant to say what is underneath the algae is an uhealthy leaf- granted it's probably not doing well but even trying to pull and scrape off the algae the leaf is holding fast to the plant and seems healthy in the areas I can still see (under/stem). I'm wondering if it would be bad to run it through again so soon? Maybe trimming the leaves most effected would be best. I don't know. I would like to put it back in the tank. For now it sits in a container awaiting my decistion. 

I would just wait a day let it soak in water for one day and then drop it right back in reverse Respiration and maybe hit it 18 hours

[Torrey]

On 3/8/2023 at 7:16 AM, Odd Duck said:

How do you convince them to eat it?  I would have to skip feeding entirely to get the guppies to eat the duckweed in my tanks.  🤷🏻‍♀️

@Odd Duck due to my health problems, I don't feed fish regularly. Instead, I seed tanks with blackworms and microfauna, and plants like duckweed.

I believe underfeeding/not feeding during a birthing boom in a new tank trained endlers in one tank to eat duckweed. Their offspring will eat duckweed (learning from elders, maybe?)

Meanwhile, I have several tanks that grow duckweed faster than I have use for... Separate strains of endlers who never learned that duckweed could be food. However, I am selling duckweed to aqua farmers, because it is one of the few plant sources of complete protein. My dogs and turtle eat duckweed, I clean it and use it in place of sprouts... it's even decent in green smoothies.

Not my favorite on salads, but a good addition in stir fry and soups.

Who knew our aquarium nemesis was being researched as a solution to world hunger?

[dasaltemelosguy]

On 3/28/2023 at 10:26 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

OK y'all, advise please. I pulled this Anubias Nana out of my Medieval Tank and put it in a vat of Seltzer along with a Java fern for 12 hours last night. It looked like this as I was pulling it out of the tank: 

It's a particularly nasty hair algae in that it REALLY sticks to things- I would not be able to toothbrush this off. So this morning I pulled it out and put it in the clean water bath with an airstone. I actually left it there all day. It doesn't look a whole lot different to me AND the hair algae is still SUPER stuck on the plant. Looks like this: 

What should I do?!

I'm arriving a little late, but I thought I'd mention this in case not. Since RR kills algae by a dramatic shift in the pH, you could also use any common alkaline water as the second bath. One of these would increase the degree of the pH shift that seltzer to water had by about 100X.

Although @Guppysnail has more experience and she finds a second RR session will probably do it. In any event, any of the below would work as Bath-2:

 

 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@dasaltemelosguy thanks for that! I think I'm going to try another soak in Seltzer water tonight. The algae has progressed to being a little darker but stubbornly hanging on to the leaf. I would like to see what a second soak does, sadly though I won't have alkaline water available this time but I will keep that in mind. I think if it doesn't work the 2nd time I'll just be cutting off the affected leaves. 

[DaveO]

Guppysnail said somewhere in this topic that the dead algae will still cling to the plant after RR. And indeed I found that to be the case. No problem though, as all my shrimp and some snails had a feast and remove it all in about a week.

[Odd Duck]

On 3/31/2023 at 10:11 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@dasaltemelosguy thanks for that! I think I'm going to try another soak in Seltzer water tonight. The algae has progressed to being a little darker but stubbornly hanging on to the leaf. I would like to see what a second soak does, sadly though I won't have alkaline water available this time but I will keep that in mind. I think if it doesn't work the 2nd time I'll just be cutting off the affected leaves. 

I also would wait and see what any snails and shrimp do to the remaining algae after the second RR treatment.  Make sure you are covering the plants and keeping them in the dark during the seltzer step of RR.  Then rinse (tap is fine for the rinse) and straight into the lighted tank, hopefully one with a fairly high pH (at least 7.0 if possible) for optimal algae killing.

[Cinnebuns]

Is club soda different from seltzer?  I ordered grocery delivery and they gave me club soda instead....

@Guppysnail

A search of this thread shows it does say seltzer or unflavored club soda but I wanna make sure. I'm not thinking very clearly today. Sorry. 

Edited April 2, 2023 by Cinnebuns

[Guppysnail]

On 4/2/2023 at 5:14 PM, Cinnebuns said:

Is club soda different from seltzer?  I ordered grocery delivery and they gave me club soda instead....

@Guppysnail

A search of this thread shows it does say seltzer or unflavored club soda but I wanna make sure. I'm not thinking very clearly today. Sorry. 

There is a bit of salt in club soda. For most plants I doubt it makes a difference. Maybe for a very few that are super sensitive to salt but I know others have used it with success. 
Seltzer was tough to get before. Now that I’m sharing RR at local club meetings it is becoming impossible. Last time they had it I bought 2 cases 🤣

[Odd Duck]

On 4/2/2023 at 4:51 PM, Guppysnail said:

There is a bit of salt in club soda. For most plants I doubt it makes a difference. Maybe for a very few that are super sensitive to salt but I know others have used it with success. 
Seltzer was tough to get before. Now that I’m sharing RR at local club meetings it is becoming impossible. Last time they had it I bought 2 cases 🤣

You created your own competition.  My hubby is enjoying the Soda Stream I bought for the aquarium plants.  😉 😝 😆  Of course I bought him some flavors to go with his seltzer.  Mine gets used plain nearly all the time since I don’t drink much soda.  😂 

[NanoFishNut]

I haven't read through the 21 pages of comments etc, but is anyone putting together a list of plants that have been tested and the effects witnessed? I feel like such a list will be quite important, people tend to reject things that are new out of hand. If they have a negative experience early on, especially right out of the gate, then all the testing and scientific rigor in the world won't convince many people. Anticipating these issues is important.

For example, Aegagropila linnaei (Marimo) is listed as "static entities" that were tested, but with almost no info on the effects on this algae. I'm also particularly interested in how mosses have been affected. I have some Fissidens fontanus that's infested with a particularly troublesome algae that I'm still trying to identify. The current contenders are Cladophora, Pithophora, Rhizoclonium, and Vaucheria. I'm suspecting, given my experiences below, that the Fiss may not tolerate RR.

Personally, I've had the following results using club soda:

• Alternanthera reineckii var. 'Ocipus' - no issues
• Anubias barteri var. nana f. 'Broad White' - no issues
• Anubias barteri var. nana f. 'Jade' - no issues
• Bucephalandra sp. 'King tetana' - widespread melting, about 60% of leaves lost the next month*
• Bucephalandra sp. 'Mini Blue Arrogant' - widespread melting, about 80% of leaves lost the next month*
• Bucephalandra sp. 'Blue Sekadau' - widespread melting, about 80% of leaves lost over the next month*
• Ludwigia repens var. 'Some Ditch Behind My House' - turned pale and leaves wilted, new growth is fine**

* None of these Buce were new arrivals and I've moved them in the past with no melting. The fertilization, light, and CO₂ all remained constant. The only variable that changed was the RR. They just a tiny bit of BBA (Andouinella), Staghorn (Compsopogon), and GSA (Choleochaete) that built up a long time ago and had been stalled for quite a while. I thought it might be nice if it cleans up the older leaves rather than being forced to trim them. Instead, I've lost almost all of the leaves, including leaves that had no algae.

**The Ludwigia isn't a valid test of RR because I dosed H₂O₂ first, then later decided to do a round of RR. Thus, the result is likely influenced by the H₂O₂.

The tests that I've seen so far have all been on common, hardy plants in low-tech setups. I have 40 species of plants just in my 75 gal alone, many of which are rare, finicky plants, in a high-light, high-CO₂, aquasoil, and rich fertilization, Garden Style environment. My tanks also run highly acidic, which could theoretically affect how RR works. My typical pH levels in my tanks are 5.8-6.2 before CO₂, and 4.8-5.0 during the day with CO₂.

Once my busy season is over with work I have some plans to perform controlled testing with trimmings of my plants. My plan is to set a couple stems of each plant into two containers, one with tapwater, one for RR, together in the same location (so the same light, etc), treat them the same, and then replant them in the same tank they came from to see if there's any difference in how they do. I won't be able to test this with ever plant that I have (there's no way I'm gonna trim my Hygrophila araguaia f. 'Chai" for this, or subject my rarer Buceps to such treatment).

It would be nice if there was a location I could post the results so they could be compiled into a single location. I doubt I'll have the time to do it myself.

Edited April 5, 2023 by NanoFishNut
Edited for formatting

[Guppysnail]

@NanoFishNut many plants were tested and the results are throughout the thread. Thank you for sharing your results trying club soda rather than seltzer. I know a few folks asked about the affects of the salt in club soda and I did not test club only seltzer. 
There is a section throughout the thread also on the Marimo algae family. It takes repeat treatments or using seltzer and alkaline water instead of seltzer and aerated tap water to kill the marimo family. 
The section describing Ph pruning may explain some of your Buce melt for you. My Buce all loved RR I only had one melt that was ailing and had algae before treatment. Algae does not normally attack leaves with healthy vascular systems. The vascular reduction can only be seen on a microscope and the leaves may look healthy to the naked eye but already ge in decline noticeable only by algae growing on them and they become ph pruned. 
Thank you for sharing your results. 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Guppysnail

[JJenna]

On 4/2/2023 at 5:51 PM, Guppysnail said:

Seltzer was tough to get before.

Psssst...Amazon Fresh has 1 liter bottles for .89. I haven't placed a fresh order since they put in new fees for delivery, but it was pretty nice to have 10 liters delivered for free (if you have Prime that is). 

[NanoFishNut]

On 4/5/2023 at 4:30 PM, Guppysnail said:

@NanoFishNut many plants were tested and the results are throughout the thread. Thank you for sharing your results trying club soda rather than seltzer. I know a few folks asked about the affects of the salt in club soda and I did not test club only seltzer. 
There is a section throughout the thread also on the Marimo algae family. It takes repeat treatments or using seltzer and alkaline water instead of seltzer and aerated tap water to kill the marimo family. 
The section describing Ph pruning may explain some of your Buce melt for you. My Buce all loved RR I only had one melt that was ailing and had algae before treatment. Algae does not normally attack leaves with healthy vascular systems. The vascular reduction can only be seen on a microscope and the leaves may look healthy to the naked eye but already ge in decline noticeable only by algae growing on them and they become ph pruned. 
Thank you for sharing your results. 

I'm aware of the pH pruning. As I said, the algae had only attacked a few very old leaves. For more context, this happened when I rescaped the tank over 6 months ago and nothing that had grown during that time had any signs of algae. Healthy, algae-free leaves that had grown since then also melted. Conversely, a couple of the leaves that didn't melt were algae-infested. Something else seems to be at play in my instance, but I don't know enough variables to say what. The amount of salt in Club Soda seems negligible, but since it seems to compromise comparability, I'll switch to seltzer for future experiments. I'm not sure that my cheapo microscope is up to the task of examining healthy leaves without damaging the plant, so I'll just have to be careful with Buceps in the future.

For the other info I guess I'll continue wading through the thread.

Thank you for all the work you've done on the subject. I'm impressed with the amount of testing and research that has gone into this, I just wish the information was compiled into a better format. It seems like the summary post has some very basic information missing and lots of overly technical detail is spread throughout, but I'm an accountant. I'm used to condensing information down into tables as much as possible, lol

 

[Odd Duck]

On 4/5/2023 at 2:32 PM, NanoFishNut said:

I'm also particularly interested in how mosses have been affected. I have some Fissidens fontanus that's infested with a particularly troublesome algae that I'm still trying to identify. The current contenders are Cladophora, Pithophora, Rhizoclonium, and Vaucheria. I'm suspecting, given my experiences below, that the Fiss may not tolerate RR.

I have done some mosses and they have come through with no apparent ill effects.  I have done some Fiss that I have unfortunately lost track of which species of Fiss.  I treated it alongside some susswassertang.  I had the misfortune of getting some Wolffia into a tank that has some of my favorite mosses in it and I’ve been battling it for months, the stuff is more insidious than duckweed.  Speaking of duckweed, the same tank recently got contaminated with duckweed (hubby was helping with top-offs).  The Wolffia was nearly clear, too.  I wanted to see if I could clear the Wolffia and duckweed using RR.  Neither the Wolffia or duckweed dies but it is lifted up out of the moss to where it can be rinsed away more easily.  So doing the treatment in a shallow container where it can be rinsed by overflowing was helpful.

I treated the container of Wolffia, duckweed, Suss, and Fiss 3 separate times, even tightly sealing the container, to see what would happen.  Everything was fine after treatment.  Everything.  🤦🏻‍♀️ Which is both good and bad.  Good because the moss is fine and when I finally rinsed the moss the duckweed and more importantly, the Wolffia all floated away.  I quarantined the treated Suss and Fiss for another month with no duckweed or Wolffia appearing.  So lifting away all the duckweed and Wolffia was at least a nice side bonus effect even if it didn’t kill it.  The Fiss and Suss are now in my new 3 G shrimp tank and doing well.

I’ve recently treated some giant willow moss (Fontanalis antipyretica ‘Gigantea’) and some Hooker’s moss (Physcometrium hookeriaceae).  I was very lucky and got a great price in an online auction with a single bid!  It’s still in quarantine because a single pair of duckweed leaves floated loose during treatment.  But the moss is looking good and it’s been a couple weeks now.

I have plans to start working my way through the mosses in the duckweed/Wolffia tank with treatments but there’s only just so many containers I can have sitting around with quarantined mosses and other plants.  😆 😂 🤣  My hubby is very tolerant of moss containers and various aquarium antics.  🤣 

 

I think that’s a great idea about a list of plants that have been treated and the various outcomes - did well, did poorly, lots of melt, mixed responses, etc.  It should have a link to this main RR thread, obviously.  We should do a separate pinned thread with only a few that can post on it so the list doesn’t get buried - like the instructions threads on the “Fish Swap - Buy, Sell, Trade” forum.  Original poster, plus moderators/admins, of course.  Hmm, someone that was part of the team, on the forum often, stays really on top of posts in the RR thread, hmm, sound familiar @Guppysnail?  I nominate you!  😘 🤗 😆 😉 

Also a good idea to fill in any blanks in the modified first post of this thread.  I think I’m too close since I’ve followed along from the beginning and I’m not seeing the gaps.  @NanoFishNut, can you be more specific about the gaps you see?  I’m sure @dasaltemelosguywill be happy to make edits to tighten up the instructions and recommendations based on any issues people can spot.

[Guppysnail]

On 4/6/2023 at 1:21 PM, Odd Duck said:

someone that was part of the team, on the forum often, stays really on top of posts in the RR thread, hmm, sound familiar @Guppysnail?  I nominate you!  😘 🤗 😆 😉 

Thank you but I must decline. I’m computer illiterate and really detest lists and reports as well as being incredibly bad at it. Basically I would rather be bludgeoned and tortured. 

Once the patent became pending we did release the website that puts everything into a more user friendly format. Many folks asked for a more user friendly format so it just needed to be done.  

We didn’t post a link because we were not sure about the guidelines of no self promotion and if it was a conflict but it’s not different than posting a link to an information blog or a YouTube video I suppose because that’s all it is. It just happens to be forum members that created it.  
 

We are not selling anything it’s just information so maybe it is ok to post?
 

 https://reverserespiration.com/

 

@Streetwise if this is a conflict please let me know and I will edit the post and remove the link  I just don’t want to have such a useful thread shut down if I made a mistake by posting the website  Thank you 🤗

 

 

[Odd Duck]

On 4/6/2023 at 12:43 PM, Guppysnail said:

I’m computer illiterate and really detest lists and reports as well as being incredibly bad at it. Basically I would rather be bludgeoned and tortured. 

😆 😂 🤣 While I don’t think it would be quite that bad I certainly understand the sentiment. 😉  I don’t want to be the original poster on the list since I’m sporadic about getting on the forum at best.  My work weeks are short but my shifts are long (sometimes very long) and often very intensive, so I rarely stay on top of the forum posts and am often not on for days at a time.

So, we’re looking for a true volunteer vs a “voluntold” person if anyone is available.

[Guppysnail]

On 4/6/2023 at 2:41 PM, Odd Duck said:

I don’t think it would be quite that bad

Extremely high pain tolerance…Zero boring stuff tolerance 🤣

[jwcarlson]

On 4/5/2023 at 2:32 PM, NanoFishNut said:

I haven't read through the 21 pages of comments etc, but is anyone putting together a list of plants that have been tested and the effects witnessed? I feel like such a list will be quite important, people tend to reject things that are new out of hand. If they have a negative experience early on, especially right out of the gate, then all the testing and scientific rigor in the world won't convince many people. Anticipating these issues is important.

I've had good luck on all the anubias I've done RR on.  And now on some java ferns and some java moss seems to have made it through.  RR brutally murdered PSO, guppy grass, giant hygro, vesuvius, hornwort and probably some others that I'm forgetting.  I'm talking 100% kill within ~2 days (usually less) of removing it from the seltzer.  The algae on said plants just seemed to laugh it off.  

I don't doubt the success people have had on here, but it really feels like I've got to be doing something wrong, but I can't pick it out.

Edit to add: one thing that I've thought about is the fact that my water is so incredibly hard and the pH is 8.3.  But some of these plants are from my apisto tanks and it's much softer 1-2 dKH and 4 dGH and had the same issue.  Another thought is that I've been mainly doing this on trimmings as something to kill the algae off.  Is it possible that being trimmed and basically immediately RR'd is too stressful?  But I have also done it with established plants (hygro, vesuvius, hornwort, guppy grass) with the same dying off effect.  Overall, I don't know what to make of it.  

Edited April 6, 2023 by jwcarlson

[Guppysnail]

On 4/6/2023 at 3:45 PM, jwcarlson said:

I've had good luck on all the anubias I've done RR on.  And now on some java ferns and some java moss seems to have made it through.  RR brutally murdered PSO, guppy grass, giant hygro, vesuvius, hornwort and probably some others that I'm forgetting.  I'm talking 100% kill within ~2 days (usually less) of removing it from the seltzer.  The algae on said plants just seemed to laugh it off.  

I don't doubt the success people have had on here, but it really feels like I've got to be doing something wrong, but I can't pick it out.

I’m not certain what went wrong other than perhaps your plants were failing before RR. 
Forgive that nothing is planted. I’m attempting alternative floating cover on most. 
All of these have been through RR at least one time and some several. 
the pogo octopus you can see only 2 leaves are being ph pruned the rest is flourishing. RR was 3 -4 weeks ago. 
Hygro sp unknown(forgotten) RR same time. 
guppy grass in the 29 RR on purchase. Now threatens to take over the world. I give buckets full away. 
Guppy grass in the bowl RR 2 weeks ago. Looking for a home for it so it lives on my windowsill with some Java babies. It came from the 29 into a QT tank so RR. 

Ludwigia RR maybe a month ago. Happy and growing. 
Hornwort big clump  poor stuff RR so many times I lost track through testing. I just RRed again when I redid this tank last month. 
the small clump RR last week given to me by @TeeJay

These are all the crypts and stryrogene reopens I brought back from the swap a few weeks ago I posted photos of them in RR @jwcarlson

[jwcarlson]

@Guppysnail I'd be willing to say that the plants might not have been in perfect condition.  However, some of the ones it has flattened were in fabulous shape.  Now... some were a shipped plant.  However, I included some of my tank-grown plants in these same treatments and it leveled those as well.  

 

I want to be clear that I'm not complaining or anything.  I typically do not do anything like this if I am not willing to lose it.

 

Your results make me wonder if I'm actually living in another dimension.  Those are all 12 hour soaks?

 

Here's a couple of results/aftermath for me.

I don't have a before for this guppy grass, and honestly I could burn a glob of guppy grass this big almost daily and it wouldn't bother me.  This was trimmings that had a decent amount of algae, from this same tank, actually, just the other side of it.  I decided to see if I could clean it up a bit because I was already RRing something else.  I don't have a before pic, but you can see some GG in the foreground that wasn't quite as bad as the GG that melted.  This was poor timing as these fish just spawned now, so I haven't even had a chance to slurp out the 'soup' 😄  She's in the cave right next to the mess.  The GG was probably 8" tall when I planted it.

 

These plants were a mix of shipped plants and home grown plants.

This is immediately after RR:

 

About 24-36 hours later:

 

Even the stems and "woody" parts of the plants melt for me.  Again, I do mean this to be "mean" or confrontational.  I hope I am not coming off that way.  Sometimes it's difficult to convey that on the internet. 😄  Plus, I can't be TOO mad about it, because I continue to do it! haha  

I do think I will do my next batch split in half - half RR and half some sort of peroxide 'dip'.  The other moderately confusing part is that I almost never get the algae to look dead (by nature of changing color).  I have noticed that these same algaes will turn pink/red if I let them dry out for a bit outside of the tank (on driftwood or a part of a filter for instance).  But the stuff I RR seems to stay green.  But perhaps they aren't the exact same types of algae?  

Edited April 6, 2023 by jwcarlson

[jwcarlson]

One more note... these are typically going into warmer water and that very much might be part of the problem as well.  Apisto tanks are 77 and discus tank is 85, but to be clear anything I've put in my discus tank at 85 has been something I got from another discus keeper who also keeps their fish at similar temps (perhaps a couple degrees cooler, though).  I've got some hygro that won't grow in my hard water that I want to transfer over to one of the apisto tanks and see if it takes off in softer water.  So if I can get it to take off, maybe I'll experiment with that a bit.

Edited April 6, 2023 by jwcarlson