Reverse Respiration

[Odd Duck]

@nabokovfan87Are you treating plain stone or with moss/plants on it?  I know you’ve been trying to treat some of both, just wondering which you’re needing to treat again.  If you’re treating plain stone, straight peroxide should work very well.  You can dilute up to 50% with water if your peroxide is fresh.  Then leave the stone soaking in it for at least 30 minutes since you’re having so many issues with your strain of the darn BBA.

If you’re working with anything with plants attached, I’d soak it in straight seltzer for at least 18 hours.  I just did 18 or so hours on some Anubias plants on lava rock and wood.  It’s too soon to know how much of the BBA will die from a single treatment but I have faith it will nearly all die and further treatments will be minimal especially if I repeat treatments in just a few days while it’s “weakened” if it hasn’t all turned red.

[dasaltemelosguy]

@Odd Duck, thanks for that info! I'm still unclear on timing so your tests with 18 hours will help a lot in understanding this better. 

This may not be relevant, but I thought I'd mention it just in case: 

My 1st RR treatment was with a sealed container for 12 hours. The plants liquified!

But if preserving plant life is not in the equation, sealed soaking really pumps up the intensity of RR. Like 1700% or so. 

Also, if saturation of wood is important, wood saturation will reach about 30% normally but if sealed, it reaches 100%.

The 2nd thing is the 2nd bath. Using alkaline water with a pH of 9-10 increases the pH shift 100X. Most alkaline waters in the supermarket have a pH of 9.5 but I've seen 8.8-10 too. 

When I was treating Marimo's, they resisted RR entirely. It took 4 consecutive RR treatments to kill one. However, 1 treatment with the 2nd bath being alkaline water killed the Marimo. 

Lastly about SodaStream's. I've noticed on mine; it requires 7 pumps to get to the pH level of bottled seltzer or club soda. On my model, SodaStream recommends 3 pumps. But 3 pumps are barely enough to effect RR.

I haven't been following this thread so none of this may be relevant! But I thought I'd mention it just in case. 

Holy cow, can you believe we're on Page 16!!!🤪

Edited December 20, 2022 by dasaltemelosguy

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/16/2022 at 12:20 PM, Odd Duck said:

nabokovfan87Are you treating plain stone or with moss/plants on it?

Removing the moss, treat that. Then treat the stone separately. I have 3 small rocks (one with each method) and then I have one bigger rock I'll just scrub by hand and try something. The moss is attached to the big rock, the three smaller ones have BBA all over.

On 12/16/2022 at 12:20 PM, Odd Duck said:

If you’re treating plain stone, straight peroxide should work very well.  You can dilute up to 50% with water if your peroxide is fresh.  Then leave the stone soaking in it for at least 30 minutes since you’re having so many issues with your strain of the darn BBA.

Will do. Need a good amount of peroxide. 😞

On 12/16/2022 at 12:20 PM, Odd Duck said:

It’s too soon to know how much of the BBA will die from a single treatment but I have faith it will nearly all die and further treatments will be minimal especially if I repeat treatments in just a few days while it’s “weakened” if it hasn’t all turned red.

Will do. I also have a method using easy carbon at a particular dose to try.

Last time it "worked" but the amanos just didn't get rid of it. Fry happened and so I can't siphon as much as I'd like. I'm sure that's not helping the phosphates.

[Odd Duck]

@dasaltemelosguy  I’m using a bucket with a lid, but this lid isn’t airtight even when snapped down and I’m not snapping it down since I don’t want to damage the plants.  This is a great point, though.  Snapping down an airtight lid would be a good way to treat really stubborn stone/wood with lots of crevices, or maybe @nabokovfan87’s very stubborn strain of BBA.

I didn’t have anything even slightly scientific about doing 18 hour duration other than I know 1i hours doesn’t always get BBA and I did some plants a while back for roughly 18 just because of the timing of the plants arrival vs when I could get them out and sorted.  Seemed like somebody mentioned something in this very long thread about doing 18 hours for BBA so I went with it. Seems to have worked reasonably well as the BBA has all turned at least somewhat red even if it isn’t the red that clearly shows it’s all dead.  It’s at least ailing.  😝  I’ll watch it for a few days and treat another 18 hours if necessary.

The Soda Stream I bought doesn’t have “pumps” but it has 3 options you can pick, lightly, medium, or highly carbonated.  I usually do medium, but when doing BBA I usually do at least partly more highly carbonated if I think the plants I’m treating will handle it.  Anubias appears to handle it fine, not all swords do (my ‘Marble Queen’ didn’t come through it well and I only did about 15% highly carbonated since it was swords - to be fair, it didn’t look as good when it arrived), and I would NOT do crypts or mosses, stems, or ferns that way.  Haven’t tried on buces but probably wouldn’t do high carbonation on them.  I guess I need to check the pH of my seltzer at each level plus my tap again, but my tap has always been very high - 8.4ish.  I also need to check my tank pH before adding the plants and maybe consider using straight tap for at least 30 minutes after an RR treatment since my tank pH tends to drop over time.

@nabokovfan87I’d like to see those results from Easy Carbon, too.  By chance have you checked the pH of Easy Carbon or does anybody know the pH of the solution?

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/17/2022 at 7:30 PM, Odd Duck said:

@nabokovfan87I’d like to see those results from Easy Carbon, too.  By chance have you checked the pH of Easy Carbon or does anybody know the pH of the solution?

I can check it.  I can share the video on the method.  You're asking about diluted or straight from the bottle?

[Odd Duck]

On 12/17/2022 at 9:41 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I can check it.  I can share the video on the method.  You're asking about diluted or straight from the bottle?

Straight from the bottle since mixing into water will likely change it significantly depending on the water’s pH, buffering capacity, etc.  Just interested in what direction it would tend to take the pH.

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/17/2022 at 8:11 PM, Odd Duck said:

Straight from the bottle since mixing into water will likely change it significantly depending on the water’s pH, buffering capacity, etc.  Just interested in what direction it would tend to take the pH.

Either an invalid test (no change) or it was 5.0-6.0 range. Very low, but only slightly lower than the scale shows on the ACO test strips.

I'll run one tomorrow using a dropper and make sure it gets on the pad effectively.

Edited December 18, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[Odd Duck]

On 12/17/2022 at 11:17 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Either an invalid test (no change) or it was 5.0-6.0 range. Very low, but only slightly lower than the scale shows on the ACO test strips.

I'll run one tomorrow using a dropper and make sure it gets on the pad effectively.

Thanks. @dasaltemelosguy, are you following?  Let us know what you think once we get more info.

[dasaltemelosguy]

Hi, @Odd Duck, sorry for the delayed response. I may have missed something coming in so late but is this about adding Easy Carbon to seltzer or peroxide to seltzer to work on hardscape? 

-If it's about peroxide, peroxide forms what is known as a piranha reaction with acids. With a more stable acid like sulfuric acid, adding peroxide gets very caustic, even explosive if not diluted enough but the right combination makes for a strong cleaner and would also become even more toxic.

-With seltzer, I'd have to run the numbers but in theory, adding peroxide to seltzer would most likely cause it to lose CO2. It's such a weak acid (carbonic), I think the peroxide would just make the seltzer go flat and revert to plain water. I'm not sure but seltzer may do the same to peroxide but in that case, releasing the excess O2. Combining them may just turn them both back into water. I'm guessing here but as the peroxide O2/water bond is much stronger than the seltzer's CO2/water bond, so most likely the seltzer will just bubble away. The best way to increase seltzer's potency is to seal the container. 

-If this is about saturating wood, it's governed by the equilibrium moisture content or EMC. Roughly (very) speaking, wood needs 5X the atmospheric pressure to saturate to 100%. Seltzer opened is about 300% but sealed, it's about 1700% so wood will easily reach 100% saturation if sealed. 

-If this is about adding Easy Carbon to seltzer, EC's two primary ingredients, glutaraldehyde and citric acid, have a very low pH, about 4. The CO2 EC normally generates can't add to seltzer as seltzer's CO2 level is so high because it's pressurized so adding more would require higher pressure. You won't be able to increase the CO2 level in seltzer without pressurization. 

Thanks so much for that plant data. That's the data we're most lacking. It would be fantastic if we eventually gather enough info to build a database on plant types and best times for RR-ing/types. 

Thanks too for the SodaStream info. That's probably worth quantifying as so many people use them. Very interesting to know if it can actually be too strong! Mine has no strength settings; you just pump more. I must have the cheap one! If I've missed something (like your point!) let me know!

Edited December 20, 2022 by dasaltemelosguy
Removed Dupe

[Odd Duck]

On 12/20/2022 at 12:12 AM, dasaltemelosguy said:

Hi, @Odd Duck, sorry for the delayed response. I may have missed something coming in so late but is this about adding Easy Carbon to seltzer or peroxide to seltzer to work on hardscape? 

-If it's about peroxide, peroxide forms what is known as a piranha reaction with acids. With a more stable acid like sulfuric acid, adding peroxide gets very caustic, even explosive if not diluted enough but the right combination makes for a strong cleaner and would also become even more toxic.

-With seltzer, I'd have to run the numbers but in theory, adding peroxide to seltzer would most likely cause it to lose CO2. It's such a weak acid (carbonic), I think the peroxide would just make the seltzer go flat and revert to plain water. I'm not sure but seltzer may do the same to peroxide but in that case, releasing the excess O2. Combining them may just turn them both back into water. I'm guessing here but as the peroxide O2/water bond is much stronger than the seltzer's CO2/water bond, so most likely the seltzer will just bubble away. The best way to increase seltzer's potency is to seal the container. 

-If this is about saturating wood, it's governed by the equilibrium moisture content or EMC. Roughly (very) speaking, wood needs 5X the atmospheric pressure to saturate to 100%. Seltzer opened is about 300% but sealed, it's about 1700% so wood will easily reach 100% saturation if sealed. 

-If this is about adding Easy Carbon to seltzer, EC's two primary ingredients, glutaraldehyde and citric acid, have a very low pH, about 4. The CO2 EC normally generates can't add to seltzer as seltzer's CO2 level is so high because it's pressurized so adding more would require higher pressure. You won't be able to increase the CO2 level in seltzer without pressurization. 

Thanks so much for that plant data. That's the data we're most lacking. It would be fantastic if we eventually gather enough info to build a database on plant types and best times for RR-ing/types. 

Thanks too for the SodaStream info. That's probably worth quantifying as so many people use them. Very interesting to know if it can actually be too strong! Mine has no strength settings; you just pump more. I must have the cheap one! If I've missed something (like your point!) let me know!

It was mostly about the pH of Easy Carbon and the chemical interaction its ingredients might have in combination with RR/seltzer treatments or with peroxide treatments.  Or before or after treatments - kind of like the discussion about pH changes and how much more effective seltzer is when then swapping after treatment to a higher pH solution (tank or tap water) afterwards as a final nail for BBA in particular.

I think you pretty much covered what I was looking for in regards to pH and expected interaction.  It’s been far too many decades to think I could figure out what gluteraldehyde is going to do with seltzer or peroxide even after all the chemistry classes I’ve taken.

I’m much too tired at this hour to be able to think smart.  I really need to get some sleep.  I’ve got a little old folks insomnia going tonight.  😆 

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/20/2022 at 12:15 AM, Odd Duck said:

It was mostly about the pH of Easy Carbon and the chemical interaction its ingredients might have in combination with RR/seltzer treatments or with peroxide treatments.

 

[DaveO]

This is the same java Fern I R.R.'d one month ago. It did not kill off all the bba, but maybe half of it. So I did it again. This time I left it in the seltzer for 15 hours. Also, I moved it to my 40b tank as I was rearranging it anyway. Let's see how it does this time.

[Guppysnail]

On 12/21/2022 at 3:56 PM, DaveO said:

This is the same java Fern I R.R.'d one month ago. It did not kill off all the bba, but maybe half of it. So I did it again. This time I left it in the seltzer for 15 hours. Also, I moved it to my 40b tank as I was rearranging it anyway. Let's see how it does this time.

If it is red it is dead. However the dead BBA if not enough critters eat it quickly provides fertile ground for new BBA spores in your tank to attach and grow. 
beautiful fern. 

[jwcarlson]

Has anyone done RR on Hygro?  I have done it on anubias, vesuvius, subwassertang, hornwort, wisteria... Probably others I am forgetting. No issues. 

Here's my hygro that I got a few days ago.  I don't think any of this will live and I am pretty bummed.  A couple of them had decent roots, so maybe they'll make it. 

Just curious if anyone else has had issues.  I thought maybe they got too cold in shipment, but they looked OK before RR.  And I included a sprig of my own cuttings and it looks the same amount of wrecked to me. 

I did miss the 12 hours by two (so more like 14).  Everything else in the batch was fine. 

Maybe this plant is just sensitive? 

 

[Guppysnail]

On 12/22/2022 at 11:34 AM, jwcarlson said:

Has anyone done RR on Hygro?  I have done it on anubias, vesuvius, subwassertang, hornwort, wisteria... Probably others I am forgetting. No issues. 

Here's my hygro that I got a few days ago.  I don't think any of this will live and I am pretty bummed.  A couple of them had decent roots, so maybe they'll make it. 

Just curious if anyone else has had issues.  I thought maybe they got too cold in shipment, but they looked OK before RR.  And I included a sprig of my own cuttings and it looks the same amount of wrecked to me. 

I did miss the 12 hours by two (so more like 14).  Everything else in the batch was fine. 

Maybe this plant is just sensitive? 

 

I did some type of Hygro I got from a girl at the club. It did fine. Did you have a lid on that when you did RR?  Not sure I can’t remember but maybe @modified lung did Hygro?

[jwcarlson]

@GuppysnailI use a gallon ice cream container with lid set over it, not snapped.  Then towel over it for darkness.  I have only done it a handful of times, but same way hasn't been an issue before.  Wondering if maybe this does just happen to be less tough.  It is certainly a thinner leaf.  But hornwort doesn't seem to skip a beat. 

Lesson learned, I guess.  If I do any more hygro it will be with no lid at all,see if that helps.

 

[Guppysnail]

On 12/22/2022 at 12:05 PM, jwcarlson said:

@GuppysnailI use a gallon ice cream container with lid set over it, not snapped.  Then towel over it for darkness.  I have only done it a handful of times, but same way hasn't been an issue before.  Wondering if maybe this does just happen to be less tough.  It is certainly a thinner leaf.  But hornwort doesn't seem to skip a beat. 

Lesson learned, I guess.  If I do any more hygro it will be with no lid at all,see if that helps.

 

I know a lid shut increases the pressure and crushes the plant. I wonder if a lid not snapped shut increased it just enough to crush the more delicate plant?  I don’t put anything on top just shut in a dark room. 
 

[jwcarlson]

On 12/22/2022 at 11:25 AM, Guppysnail said:

I know a lid shut increases the pressure and crushes the plant. I wonder if a lid not snapped shut increased it just enough to crush the more delicate plant?  I don’t put anything on top just shut in a dark room. 
 

That seems a reasonable assumption, but unsure how any appreciable pressure could build.  Now to hope some grows so I can try it again. 🤣

Or the nice guy in NY doesn't tire of sending me his cuttings! 

Edited December 22, 2022 by jwcarlson

[jwcarlson]

On 12/22/2022 at 11:36 AM, jwcarlson said:

That seems a reasonable assumption, but unsure how any appreciable pressure could build.  Now to hope some grows so I can try it again. 🤣

Or the nice guy in NY doesn't tire of sending me his cuttings! 

Geeeeze, basically totally gone as of today.  No survivorship at all.  I don't think I'll RR this plant again. Everything else in the same batch was fine.

[Odd Duck]

On 12/23/2022 at 8:06 PM, jwcarlson said:

Geeeeze, basically totally gone as of today.  No survivorship at all.  I don't think I'll RR this plant again. Everything else in the same batch was fine.

If you’re not worried about BBA and mostly worried about pests, you can try a much shorter time in RR with some of it and see if it handles it OK.  @dasaltemelosguy@Guppysnail, what’s the time for pests/snail eggs only?  I’m tired after my swing shift and can’t remember. 🤷🏻‍♀️ 

Edit to add: Found it: Snail eggs are likely sterile and non-viable after as little as 4 hours, but may not be killed until closer to 12 hours.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Odd Duck

[dasaltemelosguy]

@Odd Duck, @OnlyGenusCaps, @Guppysnail, Reverse Respiration is one year old today! 

[Guppysnail]

On 12/24/2022 at 7:19 PM, dasaltemelosguy said:

@Odd Duck, @OnlyGenusCaps, @Guppysnail, Reverse Respiration is one year old today! 

🥳🎉🎶

[Odd Duck]

On 12/24/2022 at 6:19 PM, dasaltemelosguy said:

@Odd Duck, @OnlyGenusCaps, @Guppysnail, Reverse Respiration is one year old today! 

Wow!  Who’d a ever thunk?

[KittenFishMom]

I have a bunch of duckweed/frogbit floating plants I want to treat. Any advice on how to submerge them?

[boylesdowntothis]

On 12/27/2022 at 8:42 PM, KittenFishMom said:

I have a bunch of duckweed/frogbit floating plants I want to treat. Any advice on how to submerge them?

perhaps a fish net or media bag?