Reverse Respiration

[Guppysnail]

On 2/20/2023 at 7:20 AM, Theplatymaster said:

ah, so this is done in the dark, so the plant consumes oxygen and releases C02 creating a heavy C02 enviroment with extremely low oxygen,

so why does this kill algaes? algae is very similar to plants, and  its less demanding in its parameters then plants.

If you read the article it explains all this. Algae has no vascular system to protect it. 

[dasaltemelosguy]

Hi @Theplatymaster, in the full experiment, you may dig deep into the proofs and theories of how each of your questions are addressed by RR as each of these questions are answered there, in perhaps too much detail! But there is photographic, video and microscopic evidence provided in there for every assertion unless it's marked as hypothetical or theoretical. But I'll summarize for you below:

On 2/20/2023 at 4:20 AM, Theplatymaster said:

ah, so this is done in the dark, so the plant consumes oxygen and releases C02 creating a heavy C02 enviroment with extremely low oxygen,

so why does this kill algaes? algae is very similar to plants, and  its less demanding in its parameters then plants.

Right. Part of RR being performed in darkness is to prevent plants from creating O2 which in theory, could inhibit it as a pesticide. In further testing it seems unlikely any O2 can escape a plant in that the pressure of the CO2 solution is so great, it may not ever truly see any O2 escape even in the light. But as RR in darkness improves it's algicidal effects and ensures 0% O2 present, it will improve the odds of success for both processes. 

Algae as @Guppysnail said, has no vascular/'circulatory' system. Water and nutrients flow directly into the cells vs via a root system in rooted plants-which takes time. This amongst other things makes the metabolism of many algae about 50X faster than that of rooted plants.

In essence, as @Odd Duck first observed, RR denatures the contents of the algae cells in 5-12 hours but the same damage for plants would take over 4 days. It's time and light make this work.  

On 2/19/2023 at 6:04 PM, Theplatymaster said:

@dasaltemelosguy@Odd Duck

would this method work for killing diseases like ick and bacteria?

im wondering for collecting some plants (invasive) from a local lake, but dont want to spread disease to my tank.

Somone earlier in the thread asked this so I copied that answer below:

On 2/12/2023 at 8:59 AM, dasaltemelosguy said:

We did not test everything you cited but I’ll try to address your questions.

We did not test for antiseptic qualities aside from that we had seen no bacteria in the solutions after treatments. However, most of the soda companies have studied this in great detail. There are volumes of data on this but in brief, they found only two forms of bacteria that survived the pH of seltzer, an acetic acid based and a lactic acid-based species as well as some yeasts.

Bacteria_Control_in_Soft_Drink_Production (criticalprocess.com)

There are many encysted parasites of course but insofar as ich is concerned, it’s survival in pH and CO2 levels has been not only been studied but in fact, exploited. You’d unfortunately need a subscription to read this entire study but there’s a summary available from the link. To try to summarize their findings:

Ich cannot survive/reproduce in a pH under 5.5, nor can it survive in an anoxic state. Ich requires at least 0.6 PPM of O2 in the water and there’s literally 0PPM of O2 in seltzer.

In fact, what’s really cool in this study below is they actually treated an entire lake full of carp for a massive ich outbreak simply by slowly reducing the pH! They very slowly (2 weeks) acclimated the fish to a pH of only 4. When the pH reached somewhere between 4-5, in just 1 hour, the ich stopped reproducing and became infertile!  

Effects of pH on free-living stages of a Nordic strain of the economically important freshwater fish parasite Ichthyophthirius multifiliis - ScienceDirect

 

Good luck.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Think RR would have worked for that zebra mussel issue that happened awhile back? I mean, the whole tank would have had to be RR. Thoughts?

Edited February 21, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Guppysnail]

On 2/21/2023 at 11:30 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Think RR would have worked for that zebra mussel issue that happened awhile back. I mean, the whole tank would have had to be RR. Thoughts?

@dasaltemelosguy I think did look into this and I believe it does work. 

[Theplatymaster]

On 2/21/2023 at 11:30 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Think RR would have worked for that zebra mussel issue that happened awhile back. I mean, the whole tank would have had to be RR. Thoughts?

im not sure. i heard the story that the mussel was dead anyway.

[dasaltemelosguy]

On 2/21/2023 at 8:30 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Think RR would have worked for that zebra mussel issue that happened awhile back? I mean, the whole tank would have had to be RR. Thoughts?

On 2/21/2023 at 8:31 AM, Guppysnail said:

@dasaltemelosguy I think did look into this and I believe it does work. 

You guys are right about this.  Hyper-CO2 treatments are used to eradicate zebra mussels from marimo's when they don't wish to destroy the marimo. 

In 2021, the USGS released a study where they found the CO2 treatment with only 75% of the pressure of seltzer reached a 100% kill-off in 48 hours.

At 90% of the pressure of seltzer, 100% kill-off was under 24 hours. So, it's safe to assume seltzer would reach 100% kill-off in less than a day. 

The USGS found the CO2 treatment to have higher kill efficacy than even bleach. This is probably due to the pressure, not unlike what we saw with MTS's.

The red circle is where they saw 100% kill-off at just 75% of the pressure of seltzer. the red, vertical line is seltzer's pressure, which is considerably higher. 

Oddly, despite being algae, marimos are one of the few algae that tolerate RR. I had to treat a marimo with RR four times to see any damage.

       

Edited February 21, 2023 by dasaltemelosguy

[Jeff]

What's the consensus on plant growth after doing this? From the first post, am I reading correctly into this -  6 months? Just did this last night, and plants are back in my tank. If this doesn't work; I'll implement Cory's suggestion of Flag Fish and Maracyn next time.

 

[Odd Duck]

It seems to cause some stimulus and increased plant growth over the first month, then it returns to normal and the overall growth seems to be close enough to equal to not make much of a difference in the long run.  But the plants should be cleaner of algae and free of prasites.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Odd Duck

[Odd Duck]

Well, I can pretty definitively tell you that Reverse Respiration does NOT kill duckweed or Wolffia.  Even if you use a tightly sealed container to hold CO2 in the air above the water and change out the seltzer water 3 times.  Over the course of 10 days.  In the dark the whole time.  Did not phase any of it one bit.  I was rather surprised but only about the susswassertang and the Fissidens doing fine through the whole thing.

The good news is that it didn’t kill the suswassertang or the Fissidens moss, either.  Plus it kept the pest plants on the surface so they were rinsed away more easily.  🤦🏻‍♀️ 🤷🏻‍♀️ 

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 3/4/2023 at 8:10 AM, Odd Duck said:

Well, I can pretty definitively tell you that Reverse Respiration does NOT kill duckweed or Wolffia.  Even if you use a tightly sealed container to hold CO2 in the air above the water and change out the seltzer water 3 times.  Over the course of 10 days.  In the dark the whole time.  Did not phase any of it one bit.  I was rather surprised but only about the susswassertang and the Fissidens doing fine through the whole thing.

The good news is that it didn’t kill the suswassertang or the Fissidens moss, either.  Plus it kept the pest plants on the surface so they were rinsed away more easily.  🤦🏻‍♀️ 🤷🏻‍♀️ 

They are plants after all. Hopefully someday someone will find a tropical fish that can live in a 20 gal and eats duckweed. 🤷‍♂️

[Guppysnail]

On 3/4/2023 at 3:52 AM, TheSwissAquarist said:

They are plants after all. Hopefully someday someone will find a tropical fish that can live in a 20 gal and eats duckweed. 🤷‍♂️

Guppies and mystery snails

[jwcarlson]

I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong... if anything.  I trimmed some plants: guppy grass, PSO, hornwort.  They're all in new tanks and have hair algae on them.  I thought I'd give RR a shot at killing the hair algae.  Old ice cream bucket, put the plants in, a quart of seltzer water which covers the plants, weighed down with a small dish, and left for 12 hours covered with a towel.  After 12 hours drained the plants, filled with tank water, and bubbled for several hours until I replanted them.

I don't have "before" pics, but you can clearly see the before in the after pics.  These pics are about 36-40 hours after treatment was completed. I thought maybe more of it would be red after some more time, but it looks basically unchanged from I put them back into the tanks.

Any ideas? 

[Cinnebuns]

I apologize if this has already been answered. 

Can this work for a full tank treatment?  I might have to pre-order that much seltzer if so lol. 

I have no problem with regular ramshorn snails. I actually love them. Mini ramshorns however I cannot stand. @Theplatymaster you a mad man for envying them!  Anyway...I got rid of a ton of them using RR on all of the plants. The population took a massive decline but of course they came back. Not as strong tbh, because I haven't been feeding as much, but I still want to end them as much as possible!  I recently dosed the tank with both noplanaria and fenbendazole. It's only been 2 days but I still see many alive. I considering maybe it's time to try full tank RR. 

My thought would be to just stick the filter and media submerged in the seltzer in the tank. This would kill the snails in the filter as well as keep the bacteria alive so I don't crash my cycle. 

Anyone ever tried this?

[Guppysnail]

On 3/6/2023 at 9:57 PM, jwcarlson said:

I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong... if anything.  I trimmed some plants: guppy grass, PSO, hornwort.  They're all in new tanks and have hair algae on them.  I thought I'd give RR a shot at killing the hair algae.  Old ice cream bucket, put the plants in, a quart of seltzer water which covers the plants, weighed down with a small dish, and left for 12 hours covered with a towel.  After 12 hours drained the plants, filled with tank water, and bubbled for several hours until I replanted them.

I don't have "before" pics, but you can clearly see the before in the after pics.  These pics are about 36-40 hours after treatment was completed. I thought maybe more of it would be red after some more time, but it looks basically unchanged from I put them back into the tanks.

Any ideas? 

I have circled dead algae. It looks like a success to me. RR kills algae but does not clean it from the plants. That takes time, snails or shrimp. Sadly without snails and shrimp to clean the dead remains they can become a nutrient rich fertile breeding ground for be algae to grow. 

On 3/7/2023 at 2:12 AM, Cinnebuns said:

My thought would be to just stick the filter and media submerged in the seltzer in the tank. This would kill the snails in the filter as well as keep the bacteria alive so I don't crash my cycle. 

RR will kill your beneficial bacteria. Whole tank will be just like you set up the tank new.  Whole tank is an option for the snails. Do you have a tank you can seed a sponge filter or other media in to use when done. 

[jwcarlson]

@Guppysnail Yes, I know that's dead, but why didn't all of it die? 

[Guppysnail]

On 3/7/2023 at 6:21 AM, jwcarlson said:

@Guppysnail Yes, I know that's dead, but why didn't all of it die? 

The red indicates a form of either BBA or staghorn. Some of the green still left is another type of algae. I would have to view it under a microscope to determine if it is dead. Many of the green algaes still look viable and live to the naked eye after treatment but are in fact dead.  Algae in the marimo family are the only ones that we have found that require more treatment or use of alkaline water vs tap. 
Guppy grass is one of the more delicate ones that I’m not certain could withstand back to back treatments though. 
 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Guppysnail

[jwcarlson]

On 3/7/2023 at 5:26 AM, Guppysnail said:

The red indicates a form of either BBA or staghorn. Some of the green still left is another type of algae. I would have to view it under a microscope to determine if it is dead. Many of the green algaes still look viable and live to the naked eye after treatment but are in fact. Algae in the marimo family are the only ones that we have found that require more treatment or use of alkaline water gems tap. 
Guppy grass is one of the more delicate ones that I’m not certain could withstand back to back treatments though. 
 

Well, I've got a decent microscope and am curious.  Might have to take a look at some tonight! 

[Guppysnail]

On 3/7/2023 at 6:28 AM, jwcarlson said:

Well, I've got a decent microscope and am curious.  Might have to take a look at some tonight! 

Please Post your scope pictures if you can. I would love to see them. 

[jwcarlson]

Here you go, @Guppysnail! 

The RR treated hair algae:

 

Video of RR treated hair algae... Something is moving around there, might be hard to see. Sadly it uploaded as a "short". 

Untreated hair algae... Pics washed out badly for some reason. 

Edited March 8, 2023 by jwcarlson

[Guppysnail]

On 3/7/2023 at 8:00 PM, jwcarlson said:

The RR treated hair algae:

 

Video of RR treated hair algae... Something is moving around there, might be hard to see. Sadly it uploaded as a "short". 

Untreated hair algae... Pics washed out badly for some reason. 

I do see damage. This may be a variety closer related to marimo. The cells look different than the hair algae I worked with. Thank you for taking time to post these. 

[jwcarlson]

Any suggestions for dealing with it?  I am not too worried about it as in the past it has kind of resolved itself with trimming.  Was just trying to salvage some trimmings. 🙂

[Guppysnail]

On 3/7/2023 at 8:06 PM, jwcarlson said:

Any suggestions for dealing with it?  I am not too worried about it as in the past it has kind of resolved itself with trimming.  Was just trying to salvage some trimmings. 🙂

Funny thing I grow my hair algae intentionally. It makes homes for microfauna for fry to eat and my fish adore laying eggs in it. So outside of testing RR and occasionally grabbing an unruly chunk out I have no clue. 🤣 some folks say a soft bristle toothbrush is great. 

[jwcarlson]

On 3/7/2023 at 7:08 PM, Guppysnail said:

Funny thing I grow my hair algae intentionally. It makes homes for microfauna for fry to eat and my fish adore laying eggs in it. So outside of testing RR and occasionally grabbing an unruly chunk out I have no clue. 🤣 some folks say a soft bristle toothbrush is great. 

Oh, so do I... Just don't want it on some of these plants. 🤣

I guess I could assemble another algae ball. 

 

[Odd Duck]

On 3/4/2023 at 4:11 AM, Guppysnail said:

Guppies and mystery snails

How do you convince them to eat it?  I would have to skip feeding entirely to get the guppies to eat the duckweed in my tanks.  🤷🏻‍♀️ 🤦🏻‍♀️  I’ve got a 10 gallon chock full of guppies and duckweed.  Plus I had guppies in my 20 long trying to have them be dither fish for the Betta persephones and there’s duckweed in there for the taking but nooooOOOOOoooo.  Plenty floating around.  But the Wolffia might be gone from that tank.  Maybe.

I’ve got another 10 that has my favorite moss back up stash that has been infested with Wolffia and more recently with duckweed.  [Hubby decided to help me out and top off tanks and I’m pretty sure he dragged the duckweed around from the just mentioned tank. 🤦🏻‍♀️]  I have weeks occasionally where the fish don’t get fed for a couple days and it’s never cleared the Wolffia despite being full of guppies.  I guess I’m feeding too much!  The Wolffia has gone down since there’s guppies in there, but definitely far from clear.

I know you have great big girls, but mine are “normal” size.  Maybe I need to get some girls that are Amazon goddess sized?  😆 

[Guppysnail]

On 3/8/2023 at 9:16 AM, Odd Duck said:

How do you convince them to eat it?  I would have to skip feeding entirely to get the guppies to eat the duckweed in my tanks.  🤷🏻‍♀️ 🤦🏻‍♀️  I’ve got a 10 gallon chock full of guppies and duckweed.  Plus I had guppies in my 20 long trying to have them be dither fish for the Betta persephones and there’s duckweed in there for the taking but nooooOOOOOoooo.  Plenty floating around.  But the Wolffia might be gone from that tank.  Maybe.

I’ve got another 10 that has my favorite moss back up stash that has been infested with Wolffia and more recently with duckweed.  [Hubby decided to help me out and top off tanks and I’m pretty sure he dragged the duckweed around from the just mentioned tank. 🤦🏻‍♀️]  I have weeks occasionally where the fish don’t get fed for a couple days and it’s never cleared the Wolffia despite being full of guppies.  I guess I’m feeding too much!  The Wolffia has gone down since there’s guppies in there, but definitely far from clear.

I know you have great big girls, but mine are “normal” size.  Maybe I need to get some girls that are Amazon goddess sized?  😆 

I did nothing to encourage the consumption. My guppies and mysteries demolish all duckweed no matter how hard I try to grow it. I switched to salvinia minima and once the duckweed was gone they started in on the salvinia. 
Neither of the would eat live algae but after RR it was like giving a kid a Halloween pumpkin fill with candy. 
The most notable was shrimp. Mine totally ignore algae. After RR there is not a spot of dead algae without a shrimp attached until it’s gone or a snail bulldozes them out of the way.