Reverse Respiration

[Guppysnail]

@Shadow you said the hornwort smelled. You will want to put the plants in water and aerate with an airstone for 30 minutes to kill any anerobic bacteria that may be causing the smell before returning to your tank. 

[Shadow]

@Guppysnail @dasaltemelosguy rinsing immediately in highly oxygenated water...that is water prepared with an air stone for a few hours, correct? 

On 5/10/2023 at 12:50 PM, Guppysnail said:

@Shadow you said the hornwort smelled. You will want to put the plants in water and aerate with an airstone for 30 minutes to kill any anerobic bacteria that may be causing the smell before returning to your tank. 

Yea that is the last part of the process after I pull from seltzer water in a few hours, correct? I have already started the water with an airstone, then planned on rinsing then soaking in there for 30-1 hour. 

[Guppysnail]

@Shadow that’s perfect. Yes it’s the second part but can be accomplished by just dropping the plants back in the tank. 
We recently experienced me dropping the plant into a container after without an airstone as just a holding spot until I could plant them. The anaerobic bacteria exploded. With yours already smelling we wanted to make certain you killed off the anaerobic bacteria before putting your plants in the tank in case any of it is harmful. 
 

Unrelated to RR is an odd tidbit I’m familiar with. Some bacteria that cause food borne illness. It is not the bacteria that causes the illness but rather a toxin of some sort released on death of the organism that causes problems. 

[Shadow]

On 5/11/2023 at 10:13 AM, Guppysnail said:

@Shadow that’s perfect. Yes it’s the second part but can be accomplished by just dropping the plants back in the tank. 
We recently experienced me dropping the plant into a container after without an airstone as just a holding spot until I could plant them. The anaerobic bacteria exploded. With yours already smelling we wanted to make certain you killed off the anaerobic bacteria before putting your plants in the tank in case any of it is harmful. 
 

Unrelated to RR is an odd tidbit I’m familiar with. Some bacteria that cause food borne illness. It is not the bacteria that causes the illness but rather a toxin of some sort released on death of the organism that causes problems. 

Gotcha, I am at 23 hours now...going to drop into oxygenated bucket shortly and let it sit for an hour with the airstone still in. Then rinse and add to the tanks. Should then be good to go I would imagine? 

[Guppysnail]

On 5/11/2023 at 11:54 AM, Shadow said:

23 hours now

That may be a bit long. I’m not certain how that length affects plants. 18 is as far as I accidentally went I think. If the hornwort throws a temper tantrum be patient. It does recover marvelously. 

[Shadow]

On 5/11/2023 at 10:56 AM, Guppysnail said:

That may be a bit long. I’m not certain how that length affects plants. 18 is as far as I accidentally went I think. If the hornwort throws a temper tantrum be patient. It does recover marvelously. 

Oops, I had in my head it was 24 hours to soak for some reason lol. I pulled and added to the oxygen bucket just now...plants have lost their smell already and also look great. Doesn't seem that anything has affected them. 

[Shadow]

Ok @Guppysnail @dasaltemelosguy DONE. Good thing I REALLY rinsed before putting into the tank cuz there are needles from the Hornwort all over(plants look super healthy still). If I hadn't I might have had a substrate of Hornwort needles! 😂

[Guppysnail]

@Shadow yep. The needles are how hornwort throws a temper tantrum. It hates change. Looks good!

[Shadow]

On 5/11/2023 at 3:40 PM, Guppysnail said:

@Shadow yep. The needles are how hornwort throws a temper tantrum. It hates change. Looks good!

Thx!!! I gotta fix the java ferns tho...as I am a noob at planted tanks, @Lennie caught that I planted these into the substrate. 😶

Edited May 11, 2023 by Shadow

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Reporting here “for the good of science”. I have been using Reverse Respiration on all my newly purchased plants. I have not purchased any new plants for my 29 gallon tank in at least a month (3/31). Just last week I discovered a living Malaysian Trumpet snail in the 29g during tank maintenance. Yesterday another. Seems RR doesn’t work on these. 

Another aquarist who has had them before says they live through anything by tightly shutting their trapdoors. I cannot confirm/deny that as fact.

Just reporting I have these snails now. I was suuuper surprised! Perhaps they will be good tank cleaners. Perhaps they will take over the world. We will find out! 🙃

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Guppysnail]

@Chick-In-Of-TheSea folks have tested on MTS and RR has killed them. I have done RR on club bought plants and found deceased MTS.  
Quite a few years ago I took down a tank that nothing new had been added to in roughly guessing over a year. I was shocked to find at least a quarter of my substrate was MTS.  I never seen and had no idea they were even in the tank. 
It’s possible they escaped RR but I would start stirring your substrate in case they have been in there much longer than you know. You could have many more than would be possible in a month. 
 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 5/14/2023 at 6:04 AM, Guppysnail said:

start stirring

Stirring? Not gonna happen, Gup. Plus there’s a retired UGF plate in there. They can do what they want. LOL. They are probably having a blast in my tank.

 

On 5/14/2023 at 6:04 AM, Guppysnail said:

I never seen and had no idea they were even in the tank

Kind of cool, actually. #ecosystem

My theory, and I may be totally wrong on this, is that people that see their MTS all over the walls etc is because they ran out of food and needed to come out to seek more.

[Guppysnail]

@Chick-In-Of-TheSea with that substrate MTS will benefit you greatly. 
I think you are on the right track. Tanks get over fed they overpopulate and run out of food, space air etc. 

My bladder snails go through this in tank I have a continuous fry population or have intermittent fry. 
Tank gets overfed for fry, bladders overpopulate, I get a boom of them on the walls. Once all that balances back out I rarely see more than one or two a day then the cycle begins again. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 5/14/2023 at 8:21 AM, Guppysnail said:

with that substrate

This is a hybrid Father Fish method tank. Dirty gravel (intentional), for plant roots to utilize and spread out into, with 2” sand cap, for extra filtration: to encourage both anaerobic and aerobic bacteria which cannot be accomplished with gravel. Told you MTS would have fun in there! 😂 🐚 

[dasaltemelosguy]

@Chick-In-Of-TheSea, thank you so much. This is exactly the type of feedback we need to help ascertain the limitations and efficacies of RR. 

Why I'm particularly interested in your results is we haven't yet seen any MTS survive RR so your findings may be important. 

Would you mind describing the procedure you followed, the type of seltzer you used and the timing? 

This was an example of MTS early in the thread:

https://forum.aquariumcoop.com/topic/24465-reverse-respiration/?do=findComment&comment=225805

What we assumed was the intense pressure overwhelmed the MTS operculum OR, the vibrational aspects of seltzer did much the same. 

One possible modification to the procedure might be that RR could be applied in a sealed container for the first 30 minutes and then remove the sealed cover for the remainder of the treatment. That's a 5-fold increase in pressure and there's a near certainty that would penetrate and eliminate most anything (I personally witness snails literally explode when RR was performed in a sealed container). 

Overnight sealed can also kill the plants but 30 minutes is not nearly long enough to damage the plants (that took several hours).

Thank you for this feedback. As usual, this forum is once again a fertile testing ground for our fully understanding RR, it's limitations and potential. 

 

[Guppysnail]

On 5/14/2023 at 11:40 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Told you MTS would have fun in there!

A bit retro but this is what I picture going on. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 5/14/2023 at 11:42 AM, dasaltemelosguy said:

@Chick-In-Of-TheSea, thank you so much. This is exactly the type of feedback we need to help ascertain the limitations and efficacies of RR. 

Why I'm particularly interested in your results is we haven't yet seen any MTS survive RR so your findings may be important. 

Would you mind describing the procedure you followed, the type of seltzer you used and the timing? 

This was an example of MTS early in the thread:

https://forum.aquariumcoop.com/topic/24465-reverse-respiration/?do=findComment&comment=225805

What we assumed was the intense pressure overwhelmed the MTS operculum OR, the vibrational aspects of seltzer did much the same. 

One possible modification to the procedure might be that RR could be applied in a sealed container for the first 30 minutes and then remove the sealed cover for the remainder of the treatment. That's a 5-fold increase in pressure and there's a near certainty that would penetrate and eliminate most anything (I personally witness snails literally explode when RR was performed in a sealed container). 

Overnight sealed can also kill the plants but 30 minutes is not nearly long enough to damage the plants (that took several hours).

Thank you for this feedback. As usual, this forum is once again a fertile testing ground for our fully understanding RR, it's limitations and potential. 

 

I do a 12 hour soak with Syfo seltzer. I keep the plants in a dark area during that time. I weigh the plants down, then I cover with an upside down cardboard box or a towel.

@Guppysnail is right though. These MTS could have been in my tank for a long time (from pre-RR days) and I was never aware of them.

Before the RR thread went up, I was doing a 15-20 sec salt dip on plants, but Nibbles survived that.

 

 

This particular tank has been running for 11 years.

On 5/14/2023 at 11:42 AM, Guppysnail said:

A bit retro but this is what I picture going on. 

That is perfect! 🤣😂

Edited May 14, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Guppysnail]

@dasaltemelosguy and @Chick-In-Of-TheSea I have never seen the words sparkling water on any of the bottles I used. When Das tested a few sparkling waters they were different enough not to work well. Could that be the difference here?

Nibbles 🥰🤗

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 5/14/2023 at 11:53 AM, Guppysnail said:

@dasaltemelosguy and @Chick-In-Of-TheSea I have never seen the words sparkling water on any of the bottles I used. When Das tested a few sparkling waters they were different enough not to work well. Could that be the difference here?

Above that it says seltzer.

confusing, no? The bubbles in it are very big (bigger than say, a La Croix) and the fizz sound is quite audible.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 5/14/2023 at 11:53 AM, Guppysnail said:

Nibbles 🥰🤗

The cutest ever 😍

Edited May 14, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[dasaltemelosguy]

On 5/14/2023 at 8:53 AM, Guppysnail said:

@dasaltemelosguy and @Chick-In-Of-TheSea I have never seen the words sparkling water on any of the bottles I used. When Das tested a few sparkling waters they were different enough not to work well. Could that be the difference here?

Good point and I think you've cracked the case. I just looked up Syfo Seltzer's pH and it's 6.26-4, the same as Perrier. That didn't work for me either. Normal seltzer's pH is 3, indicating far more carbonation. 

@Guppysnail, I think you're right when the words "sparkling water" are on the label, it becomes questionable. 

I've been compiling a table of carbonated waters that are usable or not for RR but as you might imagine, it's vast with so many brands out there and will take some time and probably never be exhaustive.

However, I have yet to find even one club soda that would not work as club soda seems to be highly consistent. Thanks guys, we know more today than yesterday thanks to you!

Edited May 14, 2023 by dasaltemelosguy

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 5/14/2023 at 12:03 PM, dasaltemelosguy said:

words "sparkling water"

That’s deceptive marketing!!!🥲

Look how much bigger the word seltzer is on that label! 😭

Well. Now we know! Lol

P.S. Syfo kills ramshorns. I will see if I can find the photo of that.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 5/14/2023 at 12:06 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

P.S. Syfo kills ramshorns. I will see if I can find the photo of that

Here is the green ramshorn snail that Syfo killed 💀 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Thanks for looking up the data on Syfo @dasaltemelosguy. 
 

Do ramshorns have operculums @Guppysnail?

[Guppysnail]

On 5/14/2023 at 5:57 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Thanks for looking up the data on Syfo @dasaltemelosguy. 
 

Do ramshorns have operculums @Guppysnail?

I had to look that up since I never kept ramshorn. Thought you would get a chuckle from the all knowing internet. 
 

Says LIKE ALL air breathing water snails no operculum. We know that to not be true based on mystery snails. But looking further it seems they do not.