From Tarantulas to Aquariums: Ethics and Sustainability

[Anon]

Hi guys,

 

I'm interested in your perspectives on the ethics and sustainability of the aquarium hobby. I understand that everybody's experience is unique, and I'm not here to judge anybody. I'm here to learn. 

 

I started keeping tarantulas around 2016. I was afraid of spiders, but I was fascinated with Youtube videos of tarantula keepers and wanted to conquer my fears. I bought a "curly hair" at an expo and my entire world became tarantulas for the next few years. I spent my free time answering questions on forums and learning everything I could. My second tarantula was a Brazillian "bird eater" I found for $10 at a local pet store. She's the only tarantula I have anymore, but to be honest I feel guilty for owning her... because she really shouldn't be here. 

 

In 2019, a species called Birupes simoroxigorum was poached from Malaysia and introduced to the tarantula hobby. Tarantula communities across the internet exploded into debates about wild-caught specimens. The hobby only existed because of wild-caught specimens, but it's becoming clear that the practice wasn't always sustainable. Most of these tarantulas takes years to mature and cannot be bred with siblings; males die from old age before females can breed. Specimen counts in Mexico, specifically, were starting to show dramatic declines in native tarantula populations from over-collection. Around this time I learned that Brazil had never allowed the collection of endemic tarantula species, implying that all Brazillian spiders in the hobby were poached at some point. I had to take a step back. 

 

I decided to transition out of the hobby and learn to be more careful with where my money goes in the future. I see exotic animals as pets while the majority of tarantula keepers I met see them as something to collect. I believe it's ethical to keep specimens bred by hobbyists, but I don't support poaching in any form. I feel guilty knowing that catching and exporting these animals is somebody's livelihood, but I believe it needs to stop. 

 

This brings me to fish. The things that happen on the lower end of this hobby are pretty shocking. I think this is because fish are much more accessible. For some perspective, the cheapest tarantula you can find is going to be about $15. And while tarantulas are much easier to care for, people are afraid of them so popularity is low. The diversity of species you can keep in the aquarium hobby is insane to me. And it seems that new species are being introduced at a steady rate.

 

It's concerning to see there's a shiny new pleco every other year, or is that just me? What do you guys think? Would you still keep fish if we stopped introducing new species? Do you personally keep wild-caught fish as pets? Do you see your fish as a collection and try to obtain the species newest to the hobby? 

 

Thanks for your time

 

[813aquatics]

I think it’s really hard to answer this objectively as a hobbyist but I do think it’s an extremely important and sobering conversation to have, especially in light of potential new legislative action in this realm. You framed the question really well in the context of your tarantulas and have given me a lot to think about. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by 813aquatics

[KatFish]

 

I think you summed up what I was trying to say in my own thread back in January  really well. 

Granted, I was more interested in the biology and breeding aspects from a hobbist level, based on learning about Greg Sage and what he's doing to help boost endangered species populations.
 

but let me go ahead and answer your questions from my Point of View: 

On 2/18/2022 at 8:59 AM, Anon said:

It's concerning to see there's a shiny new pleco every other year, or is that just me? What do you guys think? Would you still keep fish if we stopped introducing new species? Do you personally keep wild-caught fish as pets? Do you see your fish as a collection and try to obtain the species newest to the hobby? 

Would I still keep fish if we stopped introducing new species? 
Yes. Because I personally don't think of this as thing where completionism is required. 
I don't need every single fish ever. I just want the fish that will keep me happy. 
I think that if they're already available in the US via breeders or LFSs, then I'm gonna be happy. 
But I know not everyone is going to think that way.

Do I keep wild-caught fish as pets? 
No. But even though I am not going outside and catching my fish from my lake- it doesn't change the nature of these animals that are hard-wired into their minds. 

Is it concerning to see a shiny new pleco every other year? 
Possibly. The fact of the matter is, is that from a Hobbyist POV- we don't get to track the family tree's of these animals like we can with dogs or cats when they breed.
Well- that's not true. we can. and we do. We see it in the length of life, the colorations changes, etc.
     But with a new one coming around? It's hard to see how the "new" one compares to the "old". 
The Pro's? We see something "New".
Con's? Possibility to lose the "original" pleco's, with them becoming endangered. 
The "new" plecos become an invasive species here in the US. 
And probably more that I can't think of right now.

But all in all- we can't see those details until way far off in the future. And by that point? We've already bigger fish to fry (no pun intended) to worry about pleco breeding. 

[lefty o]

ethics are personal... i believe we should be good stewards, and care takers of the pets we keep, and that what we do should not endanger wild animals either. morality, and ethics are a big can to open.

[Goosedub]

I think it is unethical to abuse any animal. That being said, do I think fish keeping, and even keeping wild fish is unethical? Not if it is done correctly. 
 

There are many wild Caught fish that are caught in a sustainable way and their populations are nowhere close to in danger. Most of these species that are in danger are not because of the aquarium trade but rather because of deforestation and infrastructure. Project piaba works particularly with cardinal tetras. They work with fisher people to help them build a way of life around fishing for aquarium fishes and make a living sustainably harvesting these cardinal tetras without significantly impacting their numbers in the wild. One could argue that the aquarium trade helps prevent these fisher people from adjusting their way of life to more destructive practices such as deforestation and farming. 

On another note, many of the ornamental fish we keep today (betas, goldfish, koi, rams, angels,  some other cichlids) are so far removed from their wild origins they can be considered domesticated, much like many of the dogs, cats, and farm animals we have today.  They have grown and evolved into a way of life out of nature and putting them in the wild would be harmful to themselves as well as the habitats they would be introduced in to.

I am against harvesting fish in unsustainable ways, where over harvesting for the aquarium trade does impact their survivability in the wild. I am not educated enough to know exactly which species those would be but when I am considering a fish I want to keep, it is something to think about and research.

I am against keeping fish in unsuitable environments. When I ship fish poorly and they arrive dead, that makes me feel really terrible (I have had a bad streak lately shipping and is really disheartening). If I am neglectful on my maintenance and the water parameters suffer, that isn’t ok and I have to stop and change some things in my life, be that decreasing the number I am taking care of, decreasing the amount I am feeding, or whatever else I have to do, I need to be wary of that. These lives are entrusted to me to care for and help to thrive and it is my responsibility as a 

Fish can lead happy, healthy, full lives in a glass box and many do. They are isolated from the extremes of weather and climate change. They are fed well. They are generally relatively free from predation. If they get sick, they are isolated and treated, which definitely doesn’t happen in the wild. As long as they are fed appropriately and kept in clean water (sometimes cleaner than they would even experience in the wild), in an appropriately sized tank, I don’t think there is anything unethical about keeping fish.

[Patrick_G]

Interesting first post

 

[DaveO]

Your bias is obvious. You are addressing fish and aquarium lovers. 

[Zenzo]

I think @Goosedub summed it up quite well. 

FYI - I am keeping an eye on this post to ensure that things stay civil. 🙂

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

I think that there’s some nuance here. @Goosedubhas captured a lot of it. 

I had a friend in college that was in to turtles and tortoises and he had very similar feelings to what yours are regarding tarantulas.

In terms of wild caught I would recommend looking up Project Piaba as a source to show that the hobby can have a positive impact, be sustainable and make for an enjoyable and ethical hobby. 

Fish farms are a whole other subject and like many industries there are good and bad actors. Many of us only buy from fellow hobbyists, ethical online dealers and stores that have a solid reputation and I would say big box stores would not fit in that category.

[Biotope Biologist]

On 2/18/2022 at 9:52 AM, DaveO said:

Your bias is obvious. You are addressing fish and aquarium lovers. 

In this case I think it’s fine because it’s more a conversation and less a publishable document or scientific survey.

 

There are a few of us in this hobby who can (not just scientists) answer this as objectively as possible. Granted it doesn’t mean my opinion is any better.

 

I will try and address it as best I can without straying into the realm of politics as that tends to ruffle feathers. I believe that scientists should be able to conduct ecological surveys internationally on these habitats to prove beyond anecdotal evidence that not only collection from these environments is sustainable but also to establish a baseline. Which you are going to hear alot of ecologists say way too many times. It’s our buzz word. The problem with many of these species of fish is they are new to science and the hobby. This means that we don’t have a baseline population from which we can say definitively that the population is either stable or growing. The other issue is not knowing sexual maturity of these animals as OP stated with tarantulas this can make for some serious issues down the line.

 

Lack of funding seems to be the straw that breaks the fish trades back. Many of these countries do not have the money to finance scientific excursions and so rely on reputable colleges to conduct surveys and the good will of some very dedicated scientists who are willing to work for free.

 

On the flip side of that argument many fish we do not see in the fish trade are native species to where we live. They are strictly monitored and it is in most cases illegal to keep without obtaining permits or go aheads by local government and thus unattainable by most of us. The argument being that we may re-release the species at a later point and weaken their genetic pool or that we might exploit a free resource.

 

I do think that local governments and scientists need to strive to not only collect data on these species and invasives, but to ask native peoples what historic values might have been. That last point is rather difficult to come by for many reasons but is becoming more apparent that we do not have good baselines of populations because many of those baselines were established after exploitation of the resource.

 

I tried to keep that as succinct as possible but in so doing may have missed a few points.

[Anon]

On 2/18/2022 at 9:52 AM, DaveO said:

Your bias is obvious. You are addressing fish and aquarium lovers. 

What does this mean?

 

Thanks for the responses so far. Project Piaba is awesome and has exactly the kind of information I came here looking for. 

 

I remember Cory and Dean mentioning CITES for fish in a video. It's what got me thinking about this and why I posted here specifically, because CITES is a huge deal in the collection of tarantulas. 

[ACW]

On 2/18/2022 at 6:59 AM, Anon said:

It's concerning to see there's a shiny new pleco every other year, or is that just me? What do you guys think? Would you still keep fish if we stopped introducing new species? Do you personally keep wild-caught fish as pets? Do you see your fish as a collection and try to obtain the species newest to the hobby? 

When it comes to plecos, I, well, choose not to afford the particularly rare and "new" breeds. Once they are being tank-bred, the price comes down, and I get interested in getting them.

If new species of fish stopped appearing, that is not a big deal to me. There's a huge number of "known" species I've never kept, and a half dozen I've had and would love to keep again.

I personally have some wild-caught fish, but it isn't my preference--I'm a loach lover, and some aren't easy to breed, purportedly. If I have the choice of tank-raised or wild-caught, I pay extra for tank-raised.

My fish are pets. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by ACW
clarity

[darkG]

I don't keep fish (as of yet), just hobby bred invertebrates. One aspect, maybe a hair off topic, of the hobby that I find disturbing is the reckless use of chemicals and medicine. Flushing down live broad spectrum antibiotics should not be considered normal practice. IMO.

Edited February 18, 2022 by darkG

[Anon]

On 2/18/2022 at 2:08 PM, ACW said:

When it comes to plecos, I, well, choose not to afford the particularly rare and "new" breeds. Once they are being tank-bred, the price comes down, and I get interested in getting them.

I used plecos as an example because it seems they're being caught and introduced to the hobby without being formally classified first? It makes me wonder, how could we make assumptions about a species' habitat range and distribution if we don't even have a name for it yet? Or am I wrong about the "L" family plecos? Honestly, this isn't an easy topic to research. So please, correct me if I'm wrong. 

[David Retired LEO]

Very interesting conversation. It's something that I have pondered. I have goldfish, some of which were feeder fish. I have to believe the life and care that I am giving them is far better than being FOOD. I think as long as you are care for your pet and not abusing them it's ok. Should we look at dogs and cats the same way because my dog sure does seem happy.

[Guppysnail]

I have caught native fish and raised them as well as bought wild caught and domestically bred. Fish to me are my family and not looked upon any differently than my cats, frog, bearded dragon, the birds I kept years ago etc.  All my fish and snail pets have names and tanks designed for their specific comfort. Diets best suited to them etc. so they are safer than in the wild and are handed their food almost on a silver platter and do not have to work for it or feast or famine so probably live much longer than most wild fish (I’m guessing at that)  I do not “collect”  though some do view theirs as a collection or a challenge of breeding different species. Many folks even join in conservation efforts of endangered fish. I love and cherish each of my fish and invertebrate pets including my $2 mutt guppies and try to give them every comfort and nutritional need I can. I do sometimes wish I could give each fish a 500 gallon tank to enjoy and have occasionally wondered if they are missing out on a more full life however all my fish breed so I think they must be happy. 

[813aquatics]

On 2/18/2022 at 2:07 PM, Biotope Biologist said:

On the flip side of that argument many fish we do not see in the fish trade are native species to where we live. They are strictly monitored and it is in most cases illegal to keep without obtaining permits or go aheads by local government and thus unattainable by most of us. The argument being that we may re-release the species at a later point and weaken their genetic pool or that we might exploit a free resource.

What do you think is the best publicly available source for layman like myself to easily access information on native species? I have had an itch to collect many of the prolific pygmy sunfish and mollies we have here in FL but have always been unsure as to the legalities, despite it being extremely commonly done.

Edited February 18, 2022 by 813aquatics

[Minanora]

I feel that @Goosedub has summed up things pretty well.

I do my best to be responsible.

I personally try to buy fish that are tank bred as close to me as I can; so that way if I have fish shipped, they aren't traveling as far.

I'm careful with my water, I do not let my tank water from water changes leave my property, I use it in the yard. My plant trimmings either go to the LFS or are composted on my property. Snails, I dry them a bit and then compost them.

I do my best, but I'm sure I can do even better.

Like @Guppysnail said, fish are family

[Torrey]

On 2/18/2022 at 7:59 AM, Anon said:

Hi guys,

 

I'm interested in your perspectives on the ethics and sustainability of the aquarium hobby. I understand that everybody's experience is unique, and I'm not here to judge anybody. I'm here to learn. 

 

I started keeping tarantulas around 2016. I was afraid of spiders, but I was fascinated with Youtube videos of tarantula keepers and wanted to conquer my fears. I bought a "curly hair" at an expo and my entire world became tarantulas for the next few years. I spent my free time answering questions on forums and learning everything I could. My second tarantula was a Brazillian "bird eater" I found for $10 at a local pet store. She's the only tarantula I have anymore, but to be honest I feel guilty for owning her... because she really shouldn't be here. 

 

In 2019, a species called Birupes simoroxigorum was poached from Malaysia and introduced to the tarantula hobby. Tarantula communities across the internet exploded into debates about wild-caught specimens. The hobby only existed because of wild-caught specimens, but it's becoming clear that the practice wasn't always sustainable. Most of these tarantulas takes years to mature and cannot be bred with siblings; males die from old age before females can breed. Specimen counts in Mexico, specifically, were starting to show dramatic declines in native tarantula populations from over-collection. Around this time I learned that Brazil had never allowed the collection of endemic tarantula species, implying that all Brazillian spiders in the hobby were poached at some point. I had to take a step back. 

 

I decided to transition out of the hobby and learn to be more careful with where my money goes in the future. I see exotic animals as pets while the majority of tarantula keepers I met see them as something to collect. I believe it's ethical to keep specimens bred by hobbyists, but I don't support poaching in any form. I feel guilty knowing that catching and exporting these animals is somebody's livelihood, but I believe it needs to stop. 

 

This brings me to fish. The things that happen on the lower end of this hobby are pretty shocking. I think this is because fish are much more accessible. For some perspective, the cheapest tarantula you can find is going to be about $15. And while tarantulas are much easier to care for, people are afraid of them so popularity is low. The diversity of species you can keep in the aquarium hobby is insane to me. And it seems that new species are being introduced at a steady rate.

 

It's concerning to see there's a shiny new pleco every other year, or is that just me? What do you guys think? Would you still keep fish if we stopped introducing new species? Do you personally keep wild-caught fish as pets? Do you see your fish as a collection and try to obtain the species newest to the hobby? 

 

Thanks for your time

 

I am so glad you brought up this discussion, because with the recent discussions it has become very clear most of us are really not aware of the impact various decisions can have. 

My back history, to help put things in perspective:

I grew up in the Research Triangle Park in NC. My family was either religious (missionaries, ministers, bishops, etc) or hard science/ health sciences (nurses, doctors, research science, Fish & Wildlife, veterinarians, and field research).

Regardless of calling, the consistent message was similar to Cory's: leave the world a better place,  treat others with respect and compassion, be open to multiple realities being true.

I left NC when I was 20, and lived in meso & s. america working with Indigenous people in the Yucatan, Brazil, Costa Rica, Guatemala, Belize and a week in Honduras. 

I learned that there are *no* simple answers. There are layers upon layers of nuance. I have come to the point in my life that I have finally accepted that unless someone has a strong, ancestral relationship with the land they are standing on, any 'solutions' that are discussed are going to have a lot of unintended consequences. 

There are a lot of species that **only** exist right now, due to poaching/illegal collection. 

Who decides what is illegal to collect? Is it the people who depend on the rivers for life every single day, as the last 7 generations have and as the next 7 generations should be able to?

Are they even consulted?

It is a huge rabbit hole, and the reality is if we want to have a constructive conversation about animal trade, human rights, and environmental stewardship, we are going to have to be willing to be incredibly uncomfortable in a manner that is not necessarily beneficial to the forum being a safe place to talk about a mental health tool: keeping aquariums. 

@Zenzo and Cory, and the entire Co-op team have gracefully opened this space for us to support one another in our aquarium hobby. I have been taught by the Indigenous groups I work with, that it is very disrespectful to bring controversy to a host house.

Since I see Cory as our host, and I have watched him be attacked by people who didn't take the time to review his ethics in being very selective about which companies and families he works with for long term sustainability and good stewardship of the planet, I am going to follow his leadership here.

I have been in this forum for almost a year now, and I don't want to unintentionally bring up anything that may add to already existing trauma.

What I do want to uphold is the concept of "and": that multiple realities can all be true, at the same time. 

Poaching can be very harmful to the environment, *and* it may be the only option for getting food in a child's mouth *and* that poaching may be the only reason we were recently able to reintroduce 2 supposedly extinct species back into their environment. 

The aquarium hobby can have some unethical people who don't look at anything beyond costs and profits, *and* there are also responsible, ethical people like Candi Overhuls, Cory, Jimmy, Dean, Zenzo, Randy, and the rest of the Co-op crew.

The reality is that we are all in uncharted territory. We each have a responsibility to be good stewards, **and** we can't know what we don't know.

It is absolutely hope inspiring to read through your ethical crisis, self-reflection, and willingness to learn better so you can do better. 

I simply ask for the exploration of the *and*

It's very easy to be in a warm house, with access to good food, an education, and health care, and make decisions based on the headlines.

It is much more difficult to sit down with people who have never had any of the above, and listen to their solutions, and recognize that other people's decision making has never thought to ask these people what is healthiest for them and the earth they live on, the waters they protect, and the animals and plants that they have lived in relationship with since the beginning of The People. 

It's a whole different definition of responsibility, and an entirely different definition of *in relationship*

 

It's uncomfortable at the beginning... growing pains, so to speak.

Like everything else, it gets easier with practice. 

I look forward to more conversation, if you are willing. 

[Flumpweesel]

Ethics are tricky and slippery things to sum up in a few written words and in an generalised way.

Anything I keep I take responsibility for and know that I am supporting it's trade as an end user. Once it's in my care I have to do everything I can to keep it happy and healthy I have chosen to do this and this life is mine to protect now.  I don't seek out the rare or unusual fish I would worry I didn't have the skill to keep them.

I don't think fish mind being well fed and free from predators and would probably make the trade for the reduced living space so when I'm doing my job properly I don't worry.

This hobby helps people see the value in native species globally and if a fish you can't eat still has a value to the people in it's locality it stands a better chance of survival in the long run. The trip to Peru demonstrates that it is seen as potential revenue as tourism as well as an export so they know they need the fish to stay to keep the trade going.  

It is important that we keep educating  about the importance of our natural world and things will keep improving.

[Minanora]

Very well said, @Torrey. 

[Anon]

On 2/18/2022 at 4:19 PM, Torrey said:

 

There are a lot of species that **only** exist right now, due to poaching/illegal collection. 

This is a very good point that I couldn't find the words for in my original post.

 

And these exotic animal hobbies wouldn't exist at all without poaching. It's very easy for people to say they would never collect wild specimens now, but it was essential for the pioneers. 

 

Another good point I concede to is that collecting wild specimens, along with other activities we consider ecologically harmful like mining crystals, is somebody's livelihood. I've talked to a kid in Malaysia who would have seriously suffered without the opportunity to catch and ship spiders/scorpions. 

 

You're exactly right that this is the beginning of a new experience for me. I love to hear more from people with different perspectives. 

Edited February 19, 2022 by Anon

[BlueLineAquaticsSC]

I’m very thankful you posted this, these kind of discussions are my absolute favorite party of being on forums like this. I think everyone can agree that ethics comes into play in the hobby and there is definitely an unethical way to go about it. 

Also I’m very impressed you transitioned out of the tarantula hobby over your ethical view of it, it takes a lot of humility to decide that something you loved was wrong and to decide to walk away from it for the betterment of others (even if they are icky spiders). 
 

First off you mentioned poaching and I completely agree that poaching isn’t something to take lightly and can have negative impacts. Poaching is specifically the illegal killing, collecting, or transporting of animals, plants, etc. Collecting wild caught fish is often done by businesses and hobbiest alike and can be done legally, and the important part of that where ethics is concerned means it is regulated. Animal laws actually have some of the strictest legislation. I’m a law enforcement officer and know more  about the law than the average joe without a law degree, and I have never come across a law as fascinating as the Lacey Act, which basically states of it was done illegally anywhere, it’s illegal here.
 

Cory has plenty of videos of his trips to Peru where he catches wild fish and brings them back state side and he talks about some of those regulations in those.

As far as the impact on wild populations, collecting is rarely the culprit to drastically decreased population and climate change and habitat destruction have much more severe and broad spread implications. I would say the hobby actually does more good than bad a lot of times. As Carl Hammer said “The safest place for an animal to be is profitable.” At the end of the day the impact that humans have on animals is very much dictated on money, if we can make it more profitable for their habitats to be preserved and numbers kept up as apposed to the money earned from deforestation and hydroelectric dams then that’s what will happen. 
 

The hobby has also preserved many of these species. Most people don’t know that red tailed sharks are critically endangered because you see them at every big box fish store. Like wise the White Cloud Mountain minnow is actually extinct in the wild, but they are maintained within the hobby, so much so that they are even sold as feeder fish sometimes because they are so prolific (which I think is crazy to think about, using an extinct animal as a feeder). 
 

Am I concerned about the diversity of fish in the hobby, maybe partially. it certain makes it harder to regulate with the more species you bring in, however since most of our species come from the same places in the world protecting one habitat for one species usually  will impact many. If new fish stopped being introduced into the hobby would it bother me? Not really, I’ll never be able to keep all the ones in the hobby as it is. And do I keep any wild caught fish? Yes, specifically my Senegal Bichir, although Im. It sure about all of my Cichlids. Did I go through these ethical questions before I bought that fish? No, but maybe I should have, I know it comes from Africa, specifically the Congo which definitely is an area of the world where ethics are not always a concern. I am more like you were I view my fish as pets and not collectables, although for me it’s more like the aquarium as a whole is the pet not the individual fish. I know there are hobbiest out there who view it the other way and I’m sure it can be done in an ethical way too, as long as the welfare of the animals is put before the desires of the collector. 
 

I would highly suggest anyone interested in this read The Dragon Behind the Glass. It’s a narrative written by an NPR journalist who specializes in science and culture who traveled the world tracking the international trade of the Asian Arowana. 

Edited February 19, 2022 by BlueLineAquaticsSC

[Anon]

On 2/18/2022 at 5:31 PM, BlueLineAquaticsSC said:

Like wise the White Cloud Mountain minnow is actually extinct in the wild, but they are maintained within the hobby, so much so that they are even sold as feeder fish sometimes because they are so prolific (which I think is crazy to think about, using an extinct animal as a feeder). 

Woah! I had no idea! Thank you for your insight. The book sounds awesome; I'll check it out tonight. 

[laritheloud]

This is an amazing discussion and I'm learning so much just by reading along. Thank you for starting this topic, and thank you @BlueLineAquaticsSC and @Torrey for your incredibly nuanced and thoughtful input.