Thoughts on keeping rare fish in the hobby?

[KatFish]

I ended up down a rabbit hole yesterday, and it's been itching my brain ever since. 

How many hobbyists (here) keep rare/endangered fish in their tank, and help scientists with their work on breeding and keeping off the natural issue of the population dying?

 Now I know this is a curveball question, because how do you even do something like that? Frankly, I have no idea, I just stumbled across the idea from watching a video on various livebearer illnesses. 
Obviously, I won't be providing a link to the site where I ended up going down this rabbit hole- since it'd go against guidelines, but I can message it to anyone who is curious.

I just thought that from this website, it was a neat discussion topic. 
Because, well- 

1. How many of us do it? 
2. Do you work with local schools/colleges/biologists on the studies of these animals?
3. Do you sell these fish? Or donate them to those places above if you work with them?
4. Do you find it harder than keeping a "regular" fish in the hobby? Do you find it easier?
5. Do you feel a sense of purpose when working with these animals?
6. What's the most challenging part of caring for these rare/endangered animals in general? for you?

 

for anyone who doesn't have any rare fish:

1. Would you be interested in doing so? Why or why not?
2. Do you think it would be a good/fun "challenge" for yourself/family? (if you're fish hobby includes your family)
3. Would you try to contact your local schools/biologists/colleges about your fish, and see if they'd be interested in having some (should they breed and produce fry)?
4. What do you think would be the hardest part about working with these rare/endangered would be in general? for you? 

Anyway, those are my questions for the forum!
Have a great day, and thanks for taking the time to read!

[BuzzDaddy21]

On 1/28/2022 at 7:09 AM, Swampbones said:

Would you be interested in doing so? Why or why not

No, I think you will need a special permit or license which would cost money, also you might need special equipment and maybe a real large tank. I think the whole process would be a nightmare.

What would happen if you killed the rare/endangered aquatic inhabitant`s.? 

Well, that's my two cents.😟

[OnlyGenusCaps]

On 1/28/2022 at 6:09 AM, Swampbones said:

Because, well- 

1. How many of us do it? 
2. Do you work with local schools/colleges/biologists on the studies of these animals?
3. Do you sell these fish? Or donate them to those places above if you work with them?
4. Do you find it harder than keeping a "regular" fish in the hobby? Do you find it easier?
5. Do you feel a sense of purpose when working with these animals?
6. What's the most challenging part of caring for these rare/endangered animals in general? for you?

As a biologist and aquarium hobbyist who has kept quite rare fish, I'd like to chime in if that's okay.

I think the first thing is that rarity in an aquarium and rarity in the wild can be quite different.  For example, Endler's (Poecilia wingei) are likely at high risk of extinction in the wild, but they are not particularly rare in the hobby (that said, they have not yet been evaluated by the IUCN).  Although, most Endler's in the hobby are hybrids, which mean they offer no value to conservation.  That kind of sums this up in a nutshell.  If a fish is in the hobby and not officially listed as "engangered" in your home country, or is unevaluated, you can, usually, keep it very easily.  But hobbyists tend to be pretty poor stewards of the genetic material that is the concern for conservation. 

I could go into more depth, but I fear it will become a detailed diatribe about the intricacies of legality and population biology.  But, hobbyists can make a difference, and have.  If you want to get into keeping rare fish, all you need to do is track down authenticated N-class Endler's.  I did so as an introduction to the area, and my little colony is still happily with me.  I've even shared them around to other interested folks (not on here though, and this is not an offer as that violates forum rules).  When you look around, we have a lot of "rare" fish in our tanks, the first step is learning about them, and then caring for them like they are. 

I hope this helps.  Good luck!  It's nice to see others interested in rare species preservation.

[gardenman]

The truly "rare and endangered" fish typically aren't readily available to hobbyists. They're often protected, and you need special permits/licenses just to possess them. Now, some of the regulations are a bit weird. There are more Asian arowanas alive today than at any time in the history of the world due to captive breeding, but you can't keep one in the US because they're endangered in the wild. I don't think any are being caught in the wild these days as there are so many being produced in captivity. Should captive bred ones be available to hobbyists? Sure. Why not?  But we have rules and regulations. Sure, they don't always make a lot of sense, but we've got them!

[OnlyGenusCaps]

On 1/28/2022 at 8:00 AM, gardenman said:

But we have rules and regulations. Sure, they don't always make a lot of sense, but we've got them!

Truer words and all that...  I couldn't agree more! 

On 1/28/2022 at 8:00 AM, gardenman said:

The truly "rare and endangered" fish typically aren't readily available to hobbyists. They're often protected, and you need special permits/licenses just to possess them.

I'm not trying to start a heated discussion in any way shape or form.  But I would like to politely disagree with this, a little bit at least.  Fish like the tequila splitfin (Zoogoneticus tequila), which was only just reintroduced to the wild in Mexico recently, are available for anyone who goes looking for them.  They are truly rare and endangered in habitat.  But they are truly rare and endangered in Mexico, which makes them legal in the States.  Now, there are far, far fewer tequila splitfin fish in the wild than there are Sonoyta pupfish (Cyprinodon eremus) out there, which though their original habitat is very much under threat, have many, many successful safe harbor introductions maintained by the USFWS.  They even have populations at community colleges and retirement homes in Arizona.  This is a fish I would love to keep, but because it is ESA listed, it's a non-starter even to discuss in a serious way.  This species happens to be endangered in the same country in which I reside, and that is the major stumbling block in this case. 

My point is simply that your Asian arrowana example is very apt.  The wild ones are fairly under threat, though not really more than many other fish, but because they were "listed" (in this case as CITES Appendix 1) keeping them has legal issues surrounding that.  Some places have obviously worked the details out for captive bred fish, but the US takes an all or nothing stance.  These conservation tools, while critical for not losing many species, are also blunt instruments - they don't offer easy flexibility on case by case basses.  By design. 

I didn't mean to go so far down the garden path here, and I certainly hope I didn't cause offense in any way.  I just wanted to make sure that folks interested in keeping, and propagating rare fish didn't feel too dissuaded to explore that.  Uncommon as it has been, it is true that dedicated hobbyists have saved species from extinction in the past, and I suspect this will happen again.  I'm not advocating anyone taking rare fish out of the wild, nor breaking any laws.  But if people are interested in dipping their toe in to see if they like keeping rare fish from becoming gone fish, it seems like a worthwhile endeavor to encourage this exploration.  I guess that's really all I was trying to say. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I have 6 Otocinclus O.Cocama and part of the reason I got them is others told me that they were endangered in the wild. While I'd rather not encourage wild caught endangered fish at the same time they were already there- so are they in my hands as someone who seems to be pretty good at Otocinclus or do I let someone who doesn't know them get them because they are rather cool looking? I find it a shame that the home country isn't doing more to protect them, I have no power there. It creates a big dilemma in my mind. 

Per Wikipedia "The zebra oto is listed as endangered by the IUCN Red List due to its limited range and overexploitation for the aquarium trade. Additionally, it is not protected in any part of its range, nor is it listed on CITES. The species has a decreasing population trend in the wild."

My goal is to try and get them to breed in hopes to trade with other Tiger Oto keepers for genetic diversity and maybe help fuel at least the local aquarium trade. Maybe demand can drop, maybe I can create a hearty aquarium fish, maybe it could help the wild fish in the future. 

Edited January 28, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Biotope Biologist]

I am going to abstain from this topic as I am afraid I can’t help myself from talking about politics and population biology, which are intrinsically linked. I know  I will publish a book before I’m happy and that both goes against guidelines and my poor peers’ brains. 

 

I do however want to offer this sentiment. Those who choose to follow this endeavor have my respect as it’s not just a matter of keeping these fish, but protecting their genetics for future generations to enjoy. Y’all are the link between scientists and the public and without the dedication, which no one asked of you, these species couldn’t be enjoyed as pets and wild inhabitants that we get to glimpse in nature. It’s the passion in this world that keeps it beautiful.

😊

[KatFish]

On 1/28/2022 at 7:13 AM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

As a biologist and aquarium hobbyist who has kept quite rare fish, I'd like to chime in if that's okay.

I think the first thing is that rarity in an aquarium and rarity in the wild can be quite different.  For example, Endler's (Poecilia wingei) are likely at high risk of extinction in the wild, but they are not particularly rare in the hobby (that said, they have not yet been evaluated by the IUCN).  Although, most Endler's in the hobby are hybrids, which mean they offer no value to conservation.  That kind of sums this up in a nutshell.  If a fish is in the hobby and not officially listed as "engangered" in your home country, or is unevaluated, you can, usually, keep it very easily.  But hobbyists tend to be pretty poor stewards of the genetic material that is the concern for conservation. 

I could go into more depth, but I fear it will become a detailed diatribe about the intricacies of legality and population biology.  But, hobbyists can make a difference, and have.  If you want to get into keeping rare fish, all you need to do is track down authenticated N-class Endler's.  I did so as an introduction to the area, and my little colony is still happily with me.  I've even shared them around to other interested folks (not on here though, and this is not an offer as that violates forum rules).  When you look around, we have a lot of "rare" fish in our tanks, the first step is learning about them, and then caring for them like they are. 

I hope this helps.  Good luck!  It's nice to see others interested in rare species preservation.

 

On 1/28/2022 at 11:24 AM, Biotope Biologist said:

I am going to abstain from this topic as I am afraid I can’t help myself from talking about politics and population biology, which are intrinsically linked. I know  I will publish a book before I’m happy and that both goes against guidelines and my poor peers’ brains. 

 

I do however want to offer this sentiment. Those who choose to follow this endeavor have my respect as it’s not just a matter of keeping these fish, but protecting their genetics for future generations to enjoy. Y’all are the link between scientists and the public and without the dedication, which no one asked of you, these species couldn’t be enjoyed as pets and wild inhabitants that we get to glimpse in nature. It’s the passion in this world that keeps it beautiful.

😊

Thank you so much to you both for chiming in on this thread! 
And please- by all means, give me the details! Even if we have to talk in personal messages. 
I have always been interested in marine biology, and biology as a whole- and it'd be a dream to have a career in it one day.
I do not find any of it boring at all, and frankly- you've only piqued my curiosity more! Especially at the idea of more reading material! 
 

[modified lung]

Until recently I bred refuge populations of threatened and endangered fish professionally and in my opinion we should absolutely be distributing these fish to hobbyists, no question.

In a hatchery setting at least some species of fish become domesticated enough only after the 3rd generation that their survival rate when released into the wild becomes extremely low. Not only that but the survival rate of offspring of the hatchery fish that do survive and breed with the wild population are cut in half. There are a few examples of release programs crashing fishery populations because these programs rarely, if ever, take evolutionary factors into consideration.

So what's the difference if hobbyists or a university or government agency domesticates these fish? The difference is if hobbyists were allowed these fish, then they could actually be enjoyed and appreciated by people instead of kept behind a locked gate, never seen by anyone but a select few.

Edited January 29, 2022 by modified lung
typoes

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

Greg Sage and other breeders have been doing this kind of work for years. Greg has a great collection of goodieds and other rare and some other species of endangered CARES fishes. The goodied working group and CARES are great sources of information. I plan to dedicate 2 tanks to CARES fishes after I’ve gotten it setup.