Reverse Respiration

[Guppysnail]

NEW INFORMATION CONTENET

Hi folks.  As this progresses and we and forum members find new information we will be adding it to the article so first time readers can easily see all the information in one place. 
 

This is the ADDENDA section located after the part 2 growth preview and before the Cinema section.  It will host all new content.

Being involved in high end radios he has access to microphones etc of all types. He used a special one to collect data on the oscillation of the seltzer treatment.  
 

There were some expressed question about the potential for having trapped air pockets. This shows why it is unlikely vs a static cleaning method as well as other fantastic info.  I’m not even going to attempt to summarize this. You folks know me and the detailed science stuff…I’ll make a mess of the explanation 🤣 So check it out…very cool.

@modified lung has graciously consented to allowing us to use his fantastic microscope before and after leaf pictures  we are still looking for plant biology/physiology explanations for any differences seen or things we don’t know to look at by folks with education in that highly specialized field.  As soon as we find it we will add his info with full credits into the addenda section and I’ll post to let you folks know it’s there.

As more folks try this we hope to add lots of new contented that we and forum members find to make the article more complete.  We will ask your permission directly before we include your content and give full credit of course.  Forum collaboration in a true sense.  

When I read the preview of this it dawned on my this is the most likely explanation for my Christmas moss mat becoming less densely tangled and knotted but still a mat that I mentioned previously in my post here on cleaning oddballs from a club swap.  When moss mats grow they grow so thick and tight the bottom and deep center do not get enough light and those areas brown.  It also traps tons of debris and fauna. 
 

After treatment I was able to gently “stretch” the mat so was not as thick or dense. I was able to maintain the look but expose areas not getting enough light. I say maintained the look … this was before I pulled it apart and glued it into different tanks 🤣 tons of gunk, debris and fauna were left settled on the bottom of the dish, that moss mat had a lot of gunk in it  

Enjoy the Addenda.  It is crazy fun what science and technology can uncover. 

[Wet Elbows]

This is very interesting! Having a diatom issue that is covering all my plants. I'm willing to try anything at this point to save what I have left. I don't have a ton of plants so I will remove them and let them soak. Excited to give this a try!

[Guppysnail]

On 7/7/2022 at 5:41 PM, Wet Elbows said:

This is very interesting! Having a diatom issue that is covering all my plants. I'm willing to try anything at this point to save what I have left. I don't have a ton of plants so I will remove them and let them soak. Excited to give this a try!

I hope you share before and after pics. I discovered diatoms are affected by accident. I had a plant covered I was removing bladder snail eggs from. My diatom turned green 😲. I was shocked but the brown did not come back and the plant thrived. Dasaltemelosguy checked killing it under the microscope and it indeed turned green and died. also any time I change things in my tanks I have diatoms. It’s in my water  

Edited July 7, 2022 by Guppysnail

[Wet Elbows]

On 7/7/2022 at 6:38 PM, Guppysnail said:

I hope you share before and after pics. I discovered diatoms are affected by accident. I had a plant covered I was removing bladder snail eggs from. My diatom turned green 😲. I was shocked but the brown did not come back and the plant thrived. Dasaltemelosguy checked killing it under the microscope and it indeed turned green and died. also any time I change things in my tanks I have diatoms. It’s in my water  

Just got some seltzer water! I will definitely do before and after pics. Do you think it's ok to keep my Anubias attached to my driftwood and just soak the whole thing?

[Guppysnail]

On 7/7/2022 at 6:58 PM, Wet Elbows said:

Just got some seltzer water! I will definitely do before and after pics. Do you think it's ok to keep my Anubias attached to my driftwood and just soak the whole thing?

Sure is. It will dislodge all debris from the wood. 

[modified lung]

One week update (1 of 3)

Keep in mind all these plants were engulfed in hair algae and not the all that healthy before the CO2 treatment (except for the dwarf sag and weeping moss)

For each picture:

top row = before treatment

middle row = after 12 hour treatment

bottom row = 7 days after treatment 

Rotala

Leaves continuing to disintegrate 

Parts of the stem are blackening but there's new root growth

 

Bocapa

Leaves are noticeably thicker. It was hard to find a leaf thin enough for light to shine through under the microscope.

The stem and leaves are very firm.

 

Hornwort 

The 7 day picture looks very different and there looks like bubbles in the leaves? I'm not sure what to make of that.

However, this variety of hornwort develops a thick red stem when outdoors in the sun. Indoors under an aquarium light their stem is always green and thinner. This bunch of hornwort was from an aquarium and did not have a red stem before the treatment despite remain indoors under an aquarium light. Both the leaves and stem are noticeably thicker. Also, new growth at the end and a new branch is developing.

 

Weeping Moss

Looks a little brighter green. Not much else.

 

Edited July 8, 2022 by modified lung

[modified lung]

One week update (2 of 3)

 

Ludwigia

This plant is loving it.

The plant rooted to the soil already and I didn't want to pull it out. Leaves are noticeably bigger. A big new branch and new roots are circled.

 

Brazilian Pennywort 

Original leaves continuing to disintegrate.

But lots of new leaves started coming out a few days ago.

 

Dwarf Sag

These were looking pale for most of the week. I thought these were going to die but they started to make a comeback the past couple days. Only one leaf didn't recover.

Guppy Grass

Another plant I thought was going to die but it seems to be making a slow recovery.

An untreated plant is on the left and treated plant on the right. The treated guppy grass is still more pale but new leaves started growing by the base of the old making them look more bushy than the untreated grass.

 

Hair Algae

The dark hair algae that didn't die last week, after a few days it died. I think those are diatoms in the picture as well. Those came back.

 

Any plant that I listed in my post last week that were not listed this week (like ambulia and four leaf clover) were lost. I don't know if they disintegrated or floated up from the substrate and got lost in the other plants.

Edited July 8, 2022 by modified lung

[Patrick_G]

@Guppysnail, could you post a short description of this technique for myself and others who are intrigued about the science but really just want to kill some algae? I have pure soda water and a medium sized clump of algae covered anubias nana. What next? TIA!

[modified lung]

One week update (3 of 3)

 

Greenwater 

On 6/30 I added 2.5 mL of seltzer to six 5 mL samples of greenwater/microalgae. Two of the six were infested with zooplankton that were feeding on the microalgae (V and VA on the graph). After treatment the zooplankton disappeared in these two and the concentration of greenwater went way up. However, the 2.5 mL treatment wasn't enough to kill the eggs and the zooplankton returned 3 or 4 days later.

 

Nitrifying Bacteria

The bacteria was thoroughly murdered dead. That's impressive. Also murdered dead, the planaria on the media.

In the photos: ammonia tests for CO2 treated media (left), untreated media (middle), control water with no media (right).

Two days after treatment: treated @ 1.0 ppm, untreated @ 0.25 ppm, control @ 0.5 ppm.

Seven days after treatment: treated @ 2.0 ppm, untreated @ 0 ppm, control @ 0.5 ppm.

 

 

[modified lung]

On 7/7/2022 at 8:13 PM, Patrick_G said:

@Guppysnail, could you post a short description of this technique for myself and others who are intrigued about the science but really just want to kill some algae? I have pure soda water and a medium sized clump of algae covered anubias nana. What next? TIA!

It's in there right after the picture of a 2 liter bottle of seltzer water. It would definitely be easier if the original post was edited so the description of the technique is at the beginning instead of hidden after all the technical speak. I almost didn't try this because I had trouble finding it as well.

Edited July 8, 2022 by modified lung

[Patrick_G]

Ok thanks @modified lung! 

[Guppysnail]

On 7/7/2022 at 11:13 PM, Patrick_G said:

@Guppysnail, could you post a short description of this technique for myself and others who are intrigued about the science but really just want to kill some algae? I have pure soda water and a medium sized clump of algae covered anubias nana. What next? TIA!

Submerge the plant fully in seltzer.  Weight it down if needed.  Place in the dark in a container that is not tightly sealed (leafy plants may be negatively affected by a tight seal). Remove after 9 -12 hours and drop directly into a tank or aerated water.

[Guppysnail]

@modified lung Thank you again for all this. 
You are seeing the things I have seen over the past 6 months. 
Your bacopa looks identical to the way my algae covered moneywort did. The things I noticed on my before and after was the internal movement.  The leaves that were stripped had significantly less internal activity than the healthy leaves. 
Over the course of months the treated grew significantly more shoot from the bare stem that my untreated group and at a faster pace. Sitting side by side in a tank the untreated continued to be consumed by algae until only the top new growth remained poking out of the algae mass. 
This held true for groups of ludwigia as well. 
In both groups the end results were the treated grew more shoots and became bushier. The untreated continued to decline and grow profuse algae. Even sitting side by side (occasionally touching thanks to critter redecorating) The treated did not get hair algae again. Those with BBA side by side took several months before the treated would show any signs of being reinfected with BBA. 

Even though we ran tons of tests it is so comforting to have someone else see some of the things we saw. Especially since it deals with plants. They have such minds of their own and mileage on them varies so widely with each grower and plant. 
 

Off murdering bacteria.  Perhaps our sadistic streak is rubbing off 😉🤣
 

 

[Patrick_G]

On 7/8/2022 at 2:56 AM, Guppysnail said:

Submerge the plant fully in seltzer.  Weight it down if needed.  Place in the dark in a container that is not tightly sealed (leafy plants may be negatively affected by a tight seal). Remove after 9 -12 hours and drop directly into a tank or aerated water.

 Thanks! I have about an hour left in the first stage. 

[Guppysnail]

On 7/8/2022 at 11:11 AM, Patrick_G said:

 Thanks! I have about an hour left in the first stage. 

Before and after pics???  Or at least after? 🙏 please

[Patrick_G]

On 7/8/2022 at 8:21 AM, Guppysnail said:

Before and after pics???  Or at least after? 🙏 please

Shrimp appeared seconds after I put the plant in a tank. It’s like a Vegas buffet line!

Guppies and Chili Rasboras are also going crazy

[Guppysnail]

@Patrick_G my kids do the same to the algae treated plants. The new plants with no algae after treatment they snub as if to say “hey mom, what’s this? there are no yummies 😡” 

[modified lung]

On 7/8/2022 at 3:18 AM, Guppysnail said:

@modified lung Thank you again for all this. 
You are seeing the things I have seen over the past 6 months. 
Your bacopa looks identical to the way my algae covered moneywort did. The things I noticed on my before and after was the internal movement.  The leaves that were stripped had significantly less internal activity than the healthy leaves. 
Over the course of months the treated grew significantly more shoot from the bare stem that my untreated group and at a faster pace. Sitting side by side in a tank the untreated continued to be consumed by algae until only the top new growth remained poking out of the algae mass. 
This held true for groups of ludwigia as well. 
In both groups the end results were the treated grew more shoots and became bushier. The untreated continued to decline and grow profuse algae. Even sitting side by side (occasionally touching thanks to critter redecorating) The treated did not get hair algae again. Those with BBA side by side took several months before the treated would show any signs of being reinfected with BBA. 

Even though we ran tons of tests it is so comforting to have someone else see some of the things we saw. Especially since it deals with plants. They have such minds of their own and mileage on them varies so widely with each grower and plant. 
 

Off murdering bacteria.  Perhaps our sadistic streak is rubbing off 😉🤣
 

 

Btw, I originally got most of those plants as trimmings without IDs, so let me know if any of them look misidentified.

[Guppysnail]

On 7/8/2022 at 2:47 PM, modified lung said:

Btw, I originally got most of those plants as trimmings without IDs, so let me know if any of them look misidentified.

Sure will but I can’t remember the names of the ones I bought last week that were labeled 🤣. Hopefully some of our plant ID folks will chime in if they are not what’s labeled. 

[Its Hutch]

Sorry for the delay. I could not find Seltzer in stock anywhere and finally found some at Walmart. 

 

I've got the plants in a dark 5 gallon bucket, covered with Seltzer and a plate for weight, wrapped in a towel and a box to keep the light out. Will be removing them in the morning and observing for the next week. 

 

[Its Hutch]

After 12 hours I moved the plants to aerated water. I did a visual inspection while moving and didn't notice anything on the frogbit. I did notice lots of snail eggs on the anubias that look normal/unchanged. I will have additional updates later today.

[Ken Burke]

On 7/10/2022 at 8:09 AM, Its Hutch said:

After 12 hours I moved the plants to aerated water. I did a visual inspection while moving and didn't notice anything on the frogbit. I did notice lots of snail eggs on the anubias that look normal/unchanged. I will have additional updates later today.

Got pictures?

[Its Hutch]

Picture of some eggs on the anubias after about 30 minutes into aerated water. They look solid white now and are easy to see.

 

Picture of the bucket after math. Some dead bladder snails for sure and quite a bit of free floating snail egg masses that you can't really see in the picture.

[Guppysnail]

On 7/10/2022 at 9:09 AM, Its Hutch said:

After 12 hours I moved the plants to aerated water. I did a visual inspection while moving and didn't notice anything on the frogbit. I did notice lots of snail eggs on the anubias that look normal/unchanged. I will have additional updates later today.

My bladder snail eggs always look normal. I had a piece of hornwort with hundreds of eggs sacs out of my Snailtopia tank. So many it was killing the hornwort.  None ever hatched in a separate container and after a month my hornwort not only recovered but was thriving. Let us know how you make out. 

[Its Hutch]

Will do. Thank you for the information. I will post updates for sure.