Reverse Respiration

[Andy's Fish Den]

On 11/15/2022 at 1:18 PM, Andy's Fish Den said:

@dasaltemelosguyI have had some of the same thoughts that you laid out there as far as the seltzer water being pressurized and the darn snails being able to survive pretty much anything. I think that MTS would survive a nuclear attack. I am not sure that I want to buy enough bottles of seltzer to fill a 40 gallon tank to try to eradicate the  snails. I had the thought of covering the tank tightly with plastic wrap and even taping it along the edges so that it would hopefully hold in any co2 that didn't dissipate into the tank, and ended up making it to the surface and going into the air. That way, if the snails made their way up to the surface to try to breathe air, instead they would be breathing in co2. 

So, I was able to do this experiment while I was off work for a week around Thanksgiving time. I got a full 10lb bottle of co2, a roll of plastic wrap, and some painters tape. I took the couple of fish that were in the tank out, along with some of the shrimp that I could find and catch (it's used as a tank to throw culls from my colonies but has some nicely colored ones after all). I covered the tank with the plastic wrap, and made sure to tape down all the edges good, and especially around the co2 tubing going into the tank. I disconnected the air lines going to the sponge filters in the tank, turned the lights off over the tank, and turned the co2 up so that it was a steady stream of bubbles going through the bubble counter, and left it for an hour. I came back and checked on it, there were some snails that had climbed the glass to the water surface, which is why I had tightly covered the tank thinking that any co2 that didn't dissolve into the water would be trapped above the water and the snails would then breathe that in if they went to the surface to try to breathe. 

I ended up leaving the tank in the dark, with co2 pumping in for four hours, then turned the co2 off, but kept the plastic wrap on the tank and light off for another hour. When I turned the light back on after the five hours, I noticed several dead shrimps, and some snail shells on the substrate surface. I took the plastic wrap off the tank, but did not turn the air back on to the filters yet. 

The next morning, so approximately 20 hours from when I initially started the experiment, I went into the fish room, and looked in the tank, I didn't notice any snails crawling on the glass. I turned the air back on to the sponge filters, and did a 50% water change, left the tank alone for the rest of the day. 

Two days later, I was feeding all of my tanks, and look in that tank, and noticed there was a MTS crawling on the glass, so later that night, after the lights had been off for a bit, I went downstairs, and shown a flashlight in the tank, and lo and behold, quite a few MTS crawling on the glass and substrate. There definitely was not as many as I had observed before, maybe as little as 25% as before, so some snails got wiped out by the excess co2. 

My thoughts are that because the co2 couldn't be pressurized into the water, like a seltzer that it couldn't be "forced" into the snail. 

The few plants that were in the tank, a swordplant, some crypt wendtii and jungle val, appear to have not suffered at all from the experiment, all have had new leaves coming out and the jungle val has sent a couple of runners out. 

 

[JJenna]

I used RR on my 2 most affected plants, Crinum and Java Moss. I thought I took a pic of my Java Moss, it looked like Algae Moss but was gone after 12 hours submerged in seltzer and in the dark. I'm just posting my observations from the crinum. After soaking in water after the seltzer bath, a good 2-3 inches of most spears of each crinum lost their 'ruffle edge' and were black. I trimmed the black tips and placed it in the tank and after an hour I now see this red algae...I'm not well versed in algae, but reading some of the posts in this forum could it be BBA? Should I just trim or do another round of RR? 

Is the group going to collate the separate experiences from the posters into some type of readable grid? It was tough reading 17 pages with multiple quotes. 

Edited December 31, 2022 by JJenna

[Guppysnail]

On 12/31/2022 at 1:33 PM, JJenna said:

I used RR on my 2 most affected plants, Crinum and Java Moss. I thought I took a pic of my Java Moss, it looked like Algae Moss but was gone after 12 hours submerged in seltzer and in the dark. I'm just posting my observations from the crinum. After soaking in water after the seltzer bath, a good 2-3 inches of most spears of each crinum lost their 'ruffle edge' and were black. I trimmed the black tips and placed it in the tank and after an hour I now see this red algae...I'm not well versed in algae, but reading some of the posts in this forum could it be BBA? Should I just trim or do another round of RR? 

Is the group going to collate the separate experiences from the posters into some type of readable grid? It was tough reading 17 pages with multiple quotes. 

Red is dead BBA or staghorn.  They don’t usually attach to healthy parts of leaves. I trim my crinum after RR to remove the dead bba since that part of the leaf is most likely not healthy to begin with. 

[Bev C]

i would try a  media bag for the floating plants 

[John Henry]

RR worked great for my Java Fern and various species of crypts but was not tolerated by my Vallisneria.  A 15 hr treatment of corkscrew val  resulted in total plant death in 72-96 hr.  With the Italian val I reduced the treatment time to 7 hr but all the leaves were brown within 3-4 days.  The Italian vals are sprouting new green leaves so I am hopeful they will survive.  Val seems to be a very sensitive plant not liking Excel or even spot H2O2 treatments.  Has anyone had similar experiences with RR and Val species?  Maybe a short 2 to 3 hr treatment would be effective and tolerated.

[Guppysnail]

On 1/13/2023 at 4:33 PM, John Henry said:

RR worked great for my Java Fern and various species of crypts but was not tolerated by my Vallisneria.  A 15 hr treatment of corkscrew val  resulted in total plant death in 72-96 hr.  With the Italian val I reduced the treatment time to 7 hr but all the leaves were brown within 3-4 days.  The Italian vals are sprouting new green leaves so I am hopeful they will survive.  Val seems to be a very sensitive plant not liking Excel or even spot H2O2 treatments.  Has anyone had similar experiences with RR and Val species?  Maybe a short 2 to 3 hr treatment would be effective and tolerated.

I’ve done Italian, spiralis, corkscrew and jungle Val.  The ones that melted were growing algae on tips or showing fading etc   indicating those leaves not to be in prime condition/ optimal health. The rest all loved RR. I only used 9-12 hours each time as a disinfectant to introducing purchased plants to my tanks or relocating val to tanks I did not want my bladder snails in. 
 

All the Val in every tank has been through RR at least one time.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Guppysnail

[Odd Duck]

Hmmm. I wonder if Val needs to be quarantined to stabilize and do it’s melting first, then RR before going into tanks.

Vals can be so very fickle. It can also melt at the drop of a hat even when it looks like the plants are OK. I haven’t RR’s much Val but what I have has been inconsistent in response just like Val always behaves when being moved. 

[dasaltemelosguy]

@Guppysnail has far more experience than I do with a large variety of plants, but I can add a little something for what it's worth. Early on I treated Val spiralis and indeed they completely melted but all of them did grow back. I have no experience with them beyond that though.

@John HenryI did want to mention that if the goal is only disinfection and not as an algicide, we did not find any surviving pests or viable eggs after only 30-minute treatments. It's the algicidal effects that take much longer as it's asphyxiation with the pests but it's a chemical reaction time for the algae. Thanks for the input. 

[John Henry]

@Guppysnail Thanks for demonstrating Vallisneria can tolerate RR,  your vals look great!  My vals were new purchases with healthy roots and no visible algae but apparently were significantly stressed.

[Guppysnail]

On 1/13/2023 at 5:06 PM, Odd Duck said:

quarantined to stabilize

 

On 1/13/2023 at 5:20 PM, John Henry said:

My vals were new purchases

All my new purchased Val melts with or without RR. I do allow it to stabilize first. Moving Val stresses it. I have come to the conclusion if I look at my Val incorrectly it melts 🤣. 
It most definitely hates new water and melts consistently when I purchase. The only new to me ones that did not melt were grown be local to me hobbyists at my club. 

[dasaltemelosguy]

Hi Everyone,

I just wanted to mention that we're in the process of editing down Reverse Respiration to hopefully see formal publication. In doing so and revisiting my notes, I found a chapter I had written on how Reverse Respiration destroys algae using Einstein's earliest equations. In trying to keep this brief (believe it or not!), the current version was incomplete and not well explained. As it turns out, the original I just found was quite a bit better and far more comprehensive in explaining Reverse Respiration's algicidal effects. If you have a moment, please go to Page 1 and scroll down to the Relativity section entitled "Nothing and Something Create Each Other" to see the new content. I think it's a more lucid description of how this whole thing works. I hope you like it. 

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 1/25/2023 at 1:01 AM, dasaltemelosguy said:

Hi Everyone,

I just wanted to mention that we're in the process of editing down Reverse Respiration to hopefully see formal publication. In doing so and revisiting my notes, I found a chapter I had written on how Reverse Respiration destroys algae using Einstein's earliest equations. In trying to keep this brief (believe it or not!), the current version was incomplete and not well explained. As it turns out, the original I just found was quite a bit better and far more comprehensive in explaining Reverse Respiration's algicidal effects. If you have a moment, please go to Page 1 and scroll down to the Relativity section entitled "Nothing and Something Create Each Other" to see the new content. I think it's a more lucid description of how this whole thing works. I hope you like it. 

It's great how you keep on revisiting the project, and I'm so pleased for you that it's going to be published!

[boylesdowntothis]

better. much. i can see how the light interference led you to that conclusion now. it wasn't that clear in your first draft. incorporating the tpe can lead you to no other conclusion. although i can now see that aluminum lattice may be even more active than magnesium ----- but does algae have any aluminum or enough to care i wonder. i also wonder if einstein knew his work would help kill algae 😆🤣 😂

[OnlyGenusCaps]

On 1/25/2023 at 11:00 AM, boylesdowntothis said:

better. much.

Agreed!  Well done on the revision @dasaltemelosguy! 

On 1/25/2023 at 11:00 AM, boylesdowntothis said:

but does algae have any aluminum or enough to care i wonder.

There is likely to be some Al (though I am not aware of any Al accumulators in algae - there are a range of metal accumulators in vascular plants however, but topic for another day).  I suspect, if I am following your train of thought here, perhaps the more salient issue is that the Mg plays a critical role in the metabolic processes in the algae. 

[dasaltemelosguy]

On 1/25/2023 at 7:06 PM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

There is likely to be some Al (though I am not aware of any Al accumulators in algae - there are a range of metal accumulators in vascular plants however, but topic for another day).  I suspect, if I am following your train of thought here, perhaps the more salient issue is that the Mg plays a critical role in the metabolic processes in the algae. 

That's exactly how I saw it as well. Aluminum was the only metal with more chemical attraction than Magnesium in this environment and to add to the confusion, Aluminum and Magnesium flame tests are very difficult to tell apart as they both exhibit white flames in these tests.

However, in my (very) limited understanding of the metabolism of most algae, Aluminum didn't seem to have nearly the importance, if any, as Magnesium to the survival of algae. Thanks so much as your confirming this improves the likelihood that the hypothesis is correct. 

It almost seemed that algae acted more as an Aluminum scavenger rather than it being an important component of its metabolic process so, it appears there is a much higher probability of it being the Magnesium stripped from the algae. When I was looking into this, I even saw a study where Aluminum powder was introduced into the Cuyahoga River as an algicide!

Calcium attraction as shown in the new chart also seemed highly probable, but Calcium would present a strong, orange flame yet it barely, if at all showed up in the flame tests, so it looks like the ball went back into Magnesium's court.  

Edited January 26, 2023 by dasaltemelosguy
Dupe removed

[Odd Duck]

On 1/25/2023 at 11:00 AM, boylesdowntothis said:

 i also wonder if einstein knew his work would help kill algae 😆🤣 😂

From everything I’ve read about him, I think he would be highly amused at the least.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Odd Duck

[dasaltemelosguy]

On 1/26/2023 at 2:08 PM, Odd Duck said:

From everything I’ve read about him, I think he would be highly amused at the least.

@Odd Duck, Looks like you're right!

[OnlyGenusCaps]

On 1/26/2023 at 3:02 PM, dasaltemelosguy said:

That's exactly how I saw it as well.

Oh good!  That means I didn't get too lost.  🤪

[TheSwissAquarist]

Where’s RR being published @dasaltemelosguy? 

[dasaltemelosguy]

On 1/29/2023 at 8:38 AM, TheSwissAquarist said:

Where’s RR being published @dasaltemelosguy? 

If they like it, it would be in Amazonas. I have to try to reduce its size from 40 pages to 5 though! 🪓

[Bev C]

@dasaltemelosguy wonderful job  ,,  the rewrite is perfect if you need a place to publish it Wordpress.com allows free blogs and pages comes with the free blog ,,  the free blog can look like a website with pages I made this offer to Guppysnail before but i will make a offer to you too 

if you decide to  go with  free Wordpress,com  or a website and need help putting together please let me know i would be glad to help I have 3 blogs of my own ( non fish )  and one web site and i have put together a few blogs a few website’s for other  people  too 

I think this study and Experiment is wonderful and it deserves to be published and other and all Fish people to needs to see   I have not had algae on my plants since i did my RR  i still have algae on glass that my pelco and snails take care of but not on the plants i am very happy camper i had algae for a year ,. but not any more I do keep a extra bottle of seltzer in case i get new plants to rid of pest snails 

@Guppysnail your Vals looks beautiful i killed mind (without RR )  matter fact grass plants or moss does not do well only grass i can keep alive is Guppy Grass ,,for me if they say easy plant i kill it mostly i am retrying swords and anubias  they are not dead yet but still not looking good 😅😥💦

 

[JJenna]

I have a conundrum that you might be able to figure out for me. As you may know, I bought several plants at local club swap this weekend. They were never put in my tank until after RR. I brought them home, examined for any visible snails or anything else, removed pots and rinsed roots clean from debris prior to performing RR. The 12 hour soak in Seltzer Water took place over night. After rinsing in R/O water in AM I planted them in the tank. In the evening I found Red Algae covering the edges of the crypt. Didn't freak out, knew it was dead and would fall off. Happened to have the seller's e-mail and sent him a courtesy email about the crypt.  He wrote back and said he checked his tank that the crypt was in and there was no sign of algae. My question is...where the heck did it come from? 

Here is a pic of crypt before and after. 

[Guppysnail]

On 1/31/2023 at 11:28 AM, JJenna said:

I have a conundrum that you might be able to figure out for me. As you may know, I bought several plants at local club swap this weekend. They were never put in my tank until after RR. I brought them home, examined for any visible snails or anything else, removed pots and rinsed roots clean from debris prior to performing RR. The 12 hour soak in Seltzer Water took place over night. After rinsing in R/O water in AM I planted them in the tank. In the evening I found Red Algae covering the edges of the crypt. Didn't freak out, knew it was dead and would fall off. Happened to have the seller's e-mail and sent him a courtesy email about the crypt.  He wrote back and said he checked his tank that the crypt was in and there was no sign of algae. My question is...where the heck did it come from? 

Here is a pic of crypt before and after. 

I hate being disparaging but that much would not grow so quickly. It had to have been there from the seller. Maybe they cannot see it or that was the only plant it was on to give benefit of the doubt. 

I can see it in your original photo

[JJenna]

On 1/31/2023 at 12:28 PM, Guppysnail said:

Maybe they cannot see it

Thanks Guppy, I should have enlarged my starting picture to see what you pointed out. The guy seems genuinely concerned over it. It might be just a case of old eyes like mine 😉

[Guppysnail]

On 1/31/2023 at 2:42 PM, JJenna said:

Thanks Guppy, I should have enlarged my starting picture to see what you pointed out. The guy seems genuinely concerned over it. It might be just a case of old eyes like mine 😉

You can always tell him about RR 😉