The Accidental Oto Keeper

[Henry the fish keeper]

Noooo! 😞

[Odd Duck]

I’m so sorry for your loss.  That’s so rough.  I bought 10 orange laser cories a while back and I’m down to only 2.  Both seem healthy enough now and the last passed over a month ago, now, so these 2 are either immune or cured.  The ones that passed had zero symptoms and appeared completely normal.  I suspect they are using some kind of chemical to catch them or they have some kind of toxic exposure that affects their liver or kidneys and they pass eventually.  Water parameters were completely normal all the way through without even a wiggle on anything.  They still got water changes but nothing made any difference.

[Hobbit]

Ugh I’m so sorry for your losses. 😞Still, I don’t think this was a bad idea—with the information you had at the time, it was a really cool idea. Can’t blame yourself for something you didn’t know (and couldn’t have known). ❤️ I feel like if you couldn’t keep these guys alive then pretty much no one could.

[CT_]

On 3/31/2022 at 4:41 AM, Hobbit said:

Still, I don’t think this was a bad idea—with the information you had at the time, it was a really cool idea. Can’t blame yourself for something you didn’t know (and couldn’t have known). ❤️ I feel like if you couldn’t keep these guys alive then pretty much no one could.

^This.  seems to me its 99.9% probably some disease they picked up in the wild and the stress of shipping weakened them.

Edited April 1, 2022 by CT_

[Colu]

Sorry to hear your still losing Otto's I would consider doing a course of NALADIN as a last ditch effort at this point what have you got to lose 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Colu

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I appreciate very much everyone's support ( @Henry Li @Odd Duck  @Hobbit @CT_ @Colu ) . 

I am down to 1 Oto. Other than Salt and IAL, I've ceased medicating. Honestly I've not seen any of them eat anything I've offered them- I suppose they can be subsisting on biofilm and algae but it would be very hard to say.  I offered them zucchini, greenbeans, cucumber, spinach, repashy, wafers of all sorts, not a nibble. I just change out the food every day. Every one that has died has looked physically perfect with no outward signs of disease other than they're not fat but not totally wasted away. My clue to the "next death" is when they spend more time at the bottom of the tank. Today the last Oto was still hanging onto the side.

Colu, I thought about the Naladin but it said 1 dose should do it and did not recommend another. 

I can't tell you how much this has pretty much crushed my motivation with the hobby for the moment, just makes me sick. 

[Odd Duck]

I know how much this can beat you down and I’m so sorry for your losses.  I’ve been a bit off the hobby since I had that whole cluster of losses - Bad Pea Daddy, BB (Betta) practically right on top of each other, then gradually most of the orange laser cories, then the rescued angelfish.  Even though they weren’t all the same circumstances, it wears you down.  It’s rough when you’re trying to do what you can to save fishes and yet they still pass.  Many times it’s the things that happen to them well before they get to us that causes their demise, especially with imported fish.  I know you did all you could and will continue to do everything you can to take excellent care of your fishies.

The angelfish tank feels like it’s turned that slump around for me.  There’s nothing like a new project blooming and coming together to help me get back on track.  Maybe something like that will help you?  Even a mild revamp of a tank can help me look on the positive side and get back in the swing of things.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Odd Duck you are not wrong, however as you might remember this latest Oto project was to make up for my last huge Oto fail with the Patient. Now I'm headed towards 11 dead Tiger Otos- so it's a bit of a blow to the fish keeping ego.

At least for now there are no "new" projects on the horizon other than my previous mention, if/when this Oto dies this tank will be broken down. I have plans to gradually move Otos from the Accidental Tank to the Parent tank which I could have started doing this week but again, zero motivation. I think it's time to just scale back and step away for a minute. 

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

@xXInkedPhoenixXyou know I have had quite a serious set of loses as well. I have nothing but sympathy, admiration, good vibes and hope for you as your journey through the grief continues. I am learning slowly from some of my errors but I see none on your part. Just know that many of us would have done the same in your circumstances I myself think I would have thrown in the towel sooner than you did and for that I have nothing but respect for you and your husbandry. Hang in there.  

[Henry the fish keeper]

You can do this @xXInkedPhoenixXwe all have your back! 

[Torrey]

On 4/1/2022 at 12:21 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@Odd Duck you are not wrong, however as you might remember this latest Oto project was to make up for my last huge Oto fail with the Patient. Now I'm headed towards 11 dead Tiger Otos- so it's a bit of a blow to the fish keeping ego.

At least for now there are no "new" projects on the horizon other than my previous mention, if/when this Oto dies this tank will be broken down. I have plans to gradually move Otos from the Accidental Tank to the Parent tank which I could have started doing this week but again, zero motivation. I think it's time to just scale back and step away for a minute. 

I want to share some information with you from my Australian friend, Laura. I was looking for her book, I think you would appreciate it.

First, you are ahead of the curve for most fish keepers as you have managed to successfully breed otos... even if it was by accident. Perhaps more so because they were accidental?

Laura used to explain to new fish keepers why otos were so difficult to keep alive:

on top of the stress of wild capture, and all the illnesses that don't really bother them in the wild where they have access to everything they need to monitor their own health...

Otos are very similar to nerites. They can eat food we provide, but otos more than apparently any other fish really depend on biofilm to keep their tummy happy and for proper digestion.

@xXInkedPhoenixX you did everything you could. You went so far above and beyond what most people could even afford to do for these otos. You made the best choice you could with the information you had available, *and* you are not able to control every factor before they get to you.

None of them suffered for any length of time...because of you. Because of your care, they were able to live much longer than if they had gone home with anyone else. They lived, because of you.

They died, because of things you had no control over.

When we stop to consider all the pollution and disturbances that are happening in these wild habitats... all the shipping disruptions due to "just in time" economics compounded by a global pandemic...

Really, it's a miracle that this is *not* the norm.

Which probably doesn't make you feel any better in this moment.

It's okay to mourn, and to be discouraged, and to want to walk away from the hobby. Those are all perfectly normal and healthy reactions to have to this many deaths.

And...

If you allow yourself to completely yield to the despair, the opportunities here will be lost. Honestly, I have no idea what opportunity is in front of you. I only know from personal experience that the greatest opportunities have always been hidden inside my greatest losses, and I have had to give myself permission to fully mourn so I could make room (and energy) to search for the missing/overlooked opportunity.

It almost always require I experience another reminder that Earth and Nature want me to *allow* things... which is direct opposite of my personal nature.

If you were nearby, I would drive over some good tea, some great chocolate from B.T.S. Chocolates, and a real tear jerker of a movie. I hope you are able to review everything you did, and recognize that you exerted a Herculean effort for these fish... and they will *never* forget it. I'm pretty confident they are sentient, and I am confident they remember what we did for them even after the skin bag/scale bag fails.

They were lucky to come into your home, even if it's hard to feel that right now.

[Colu]

Sorry to hear that they didn't make at least you did the best you could for them sometimes thing are just out of are control and no Matter what you do theirs not a good out come 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Torrey I appreciate all that you wrote and it is helpful as is everyone's words of encouragement and sympathy. Maybe it's why I come here to lament the loss because I know all of you have come across this in the hobby and you know how I feel- even the closest people I have in my personal life haven't a clue and don't really react when I tell them so I don't talk about it. 

My post maybe seemed dramatic when I said this event has killed my motivation but it's more about my motivation to go bigger which was the plan- getting more Tigers isn't at all on the horizon. I'm certainly not walking away from the hobby- just going to scale back what I was going towards. I still won't intentionally breed anything but if my Otos do again (no signs lately) then I will give them every opportunity to thrive. I think I'm looking forward to consolidating my Otos and seeing what comes of it. It might even give me more time with my individual tanks which will be nice. 

Want to talk about admiration @Beardedbillygoat1975 with breeding set ups and scale (let alone the poor sad bowl). It's nice to see people like you and others in this community who just keep trying. I don't know how the breeders here do it (even when it's just for fun)!

Anyway, I think I take this loss so hard because there were so many of them and yes I realize there was probably nothing I could have done but you all know that you second guess and wonder what if I did this...what if I did that.... I have a big passion for these little catfish, that at least isn't changing. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Just a sad update. Some time overnight the last of the new O.Cocama passed though when I turned off the lights yesterday they were still hanging onto the side and seemingly fine. 

I've been thinking about the move of the Accidental Otos into the Parent tank. I might do a re-arrange before I start moving them. Since there will be quite a few more I'll want a space for a larger feeding bowl and I'd like to add some of the plants from the Accidental tank as well. I'm thinking about taking out my glass "river" and filling it in with the gravel that's in the rest of the tank OR get some Caribsea Eco-Complete which is in the rest of my tanks (but I'm out of it currently) and make a black sand "beach" area. Any thoughts? 

[eatyourpeas]

I find the resilience of Nerms here is what keeps me from giving up. I am so sorry @xXInkedPhoenixX, and as you said, people like @Beardedbillygoat1975 are an inspiration, and it gives me the energy to rethink what I have instead of renounce the hobby. Too many names to mention here in gratitude, but I could no be in this hobby without you all. It can be emotionally exhausting!

Happy St. Nermy's! 

[Odd Duck]

On 4/1/2022 at 1:21 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@Odd Duck you are not wrong, however as you might remember this latest Oto project was to make up for my last huge Oto fail with the Patient. Now I'm headed towards 11 dead Tiger Otos- so it's a bit of a blow to the fish keeping ego.

At least for now there are no "new" projects on the horizon other than my previous mention, if/when this Oto dies this tank will be broken down. I have plans to gradually move Otos from the Accidental Tank to the Parent tank which I could have started doing this week but again, zero motivation. I think it's time to just scale back and step away for a minute. 

You know I don’t consider your loss of the Patient to be a fail at all.  You went far above and beyond and gave that fishy friend everything you could.  The Patient best every expectation of survival time and even though I know it makes you sad to think of the loss, you also need to congratulate yourself for the profound accomplishment of giving the Patient far more time than expected.

I would also bet that you don’t think of the tiger otos as anything but a failure but you MUST understand the odds were stacked high against you.  You gave them quality time I’m certain they wouldn’t have had without your care.  Even if you can’t count it as a success, you did everything you could, documented what you did, and shared your astute observations with others.  This is where it starts.  Sometimes it’s finding things that don’t work until we finally hit on what does work.  We, collectively, know more because of your willingness to openly and honestly share your findings.  I hold you in tremendous respect for that (among many other things).

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS VITATTUS: The Parent Tank

Today I spent some time with the Parent Tank to prep for the future move of the Accidental Otos. First on the agenda was to purge some of the glass river and redirect the rest of it to make a bit more room for more plants (from the Accidental Tank)- maybe even another small food bowl. I had debated whether I was going to keep any of it at all but I decided that since it's really the only thing left that reminds me of when I first set it up (happy stuff!) I wanted to keep some. So from this, off I went:

I took a large floating breeder and sunk it in the tank so I could dig up all the glass I wanted to remove and I started loading it. That kicked up a WHOLE lot of mulm. This tank does "suffer" from a lot of mulmy "dust" that tends to sit on the plants (the Otos are really good at moving it around) so I have to shake them and dust them off on a semi- regular basis (the small leaves suffer the most from this). It was a cloud of brown chunky mulm for some time which concerned me a little bit- BUT my other task was to add my back-up HOB (Aqueon Quietflow 10). I figure 3 filters for this tank will be a good thing in the near future- I find that the HOBs help more with this sort of dusty issue (as evidenced by the fact that the Accidental Oto tank has the same HOB and I have to clean it every week due to the detrius it vacuums up for me). So that was set up as well- before I put the prefilter on I let it run a good length of time to suck in the mulm I kicked up by the move. I've put in a glass feeder dish since the bowl now is out in the open so it's less obvious. I only had a little bit of the original gravel for the Parent Tank left and some left over from a Betta tank from times past that is similar but a lot smaller, so they got mixed and put on the left of the river. I like the contrast between the two "landscapes" on either side of the glass. Toothbrushed a lot of the broad leaves of the biggest Amazon and Anubias species and trimmed a few plants as well. I pulled only 1 plant today from the Accidental tank (a small Anubias on a rock now front center next to the new river). If the tank tests well in the next couple of weeks I will try and start adding Otos from Accidental here a little at a time. This is today's result: 

 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS VITTATUS AND COCAMA: From the Accidental to the Parent Tank

So. Today I started the move of some of the Otos from the Accidental tank to the Parent tank during my regular tank maintenance time. I was determined that I would catch the 5 remaining Cocama/Tigers and as many Vitattus I could catch within a short amount of time (without doing too many to shake the cycle of course) would go into the tank today. One of the great things about bare bottomed tanks and plants on rocks/wood/in pots is that most of the tank can come out so catching is a little easier. Otos are NOT easy fish to catch. I removed both the Coconut houses and caught a few of the Tigers that way since they were inside (had a net right outside to catch them). In the end I caught all 5 Tigers and 10 Vitattus. My new residents were placed in my ACO Catch Cup and hooked to the side of the Parent tank, I put a cup of the new water in every 15 minutes for 45 minutes (there is little difference between the 2 tanks but for temperature).I also added one of the coconut houses a chunk of Java Windelov (attached to wood and a suction cup back right upper corner) and a piece of very long Java Narrow Leaf on a piece of wood (front left). I also added another small glass food dish for the additional Otos (potentially 30 total as I'm not sure of the exact number in the Parent tank due to some babies from the very first spawn being allowed to stay). 

I was then able to inspect the Cocama a little better than I had in the past. I appears to me that I have 3 females and 2 males- the females have longer more hourglass or guitar shaped bodies and the males lack the length and shape. 

Then I was able to release the new residents! Short google video: https://photos.app.goo.gl/afLQvHdYgu5wPaK88

I won't see them a whole lot since there are plenty more places to hide in the parent tank but at least they seem to be doing well so far from what I can tell. In fact as I type this and it's "moonlight" mode now before lights out for the day- one of the females is hanging out front and center. This move has made me pretty happy with my aquariums at the moment and I can't wait to put the rest of them in there and see how it goes (of course I'll do it slowly and right just excited to see the outcome). 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[PineSong]

I am so glad to read you're feeling better about your tanks. It is hard hard hard when discouragement breaks your heart and gives you negative vibes where positive ones were, about your skills or your tank decor. 

[CT_]

This update really excited me :)
 

It's great the the last 5 made it this far!  Cool to see that you can tentatively sex them to.  Sending good vibes for happy healthy otos

[Hobbit]

Aww it’s fun to watch them go zip zip zip into the new tank and immediately pick a spot. So glad you’re feeling better about things. 💖

[Minanora]

ORD.

I just got caught up. I'm sorry you've had such a rough time over the last few months. I'm glad you're not giving up.

What was your technique for catching out those harlequins? And what net did you have success with? I dread the thought of needing to catch any of the 12 I have in the 75.

I like the changes you've made as well. The plants look amazing. You are much more patient than I am. Moving those rocks around... I wouldn't have had the patience. 🤣

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Minanora Thanks yea, it's rough losing a whole batch of fish and in the end you don't know why (though there are suspicions). 

Honestly my Harlies weren't as hard to catch as my Otos are. I just used an average sized net- but I only have 20 gallon talls so in a 75 they are going to give you a run for your money. My Harlequins however are a lot more scared of me than I've seen with other people- so they made it a little easier for me by trying to hide in corners which makes them a bit easier to catch- if yours are the same with an appropriate sized net you'll get them just fine. 

Thanks, yea my plants are looking pretty good, that's my oldest tank- the big Amazon the oldest plant I have....there's one in the front right corner I got at the same time, it is extra small. Lol. Just light and fish poop for me- easy care plants are truly easy care. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Torrey]

On 4/13/2022 at 9:42 AM, Minanora said:

ORD.

I just got caught up. I'm sorry you've had such a rough time over the last few months. I'm glad you're not giving up.

What was your technique for catching out those harlequins? And what net did you have success with? I dread the thought of needing to catch any of the 12 I have in the 75.

I like the changes you've made as well. The plants look amazing. You are much more patient than I am. Moving those rocks around... I wouldn't have had the patience. 🤣

Do your harlequins like frozen food?

I caught 200+ endlers with my brand new Co-op net by dropping a frozen cube of baby brine in the net, and allowing just enough space at the bottom edge of the net (tilt the net, so the top part of the net is barely above the water) for the fish to swim into the net to get the treat. Took me 3 minutes of patience, and not moving the net until it was full of fish eating the frozen baby brine.... Literally, only one dip of the net. There are probably about a dozen or so fish I missed, and I'll get them out this coming weekend to finish sorting.

[Minanora]

On 4/13/2022 at 3:32 PM, Torrey said:

Do your harlequins like frozen food?

I caught 200+ endlers with my brand new Co-op net by dropping a frozen cube of baby brine in the net, and allowing just enough space at the bottom edge of the net (tilt the net, so the top part of the net is barely above the water) for the fish to swim into the net to get the treat. Took me 3 minutes of patience, and not moving the net until it was full of fish eating the frozen baby brine.... Literally, only one dip of the net. There are probably about a dozen or so fish I missed, and I'll get them out this coming weekend to finish sorting.

They do... I will try this when the time comes. But I'm sure the guppy gang will bully them out of the way. Lol. They like to be caught in the net when they aren't the fish I'm trying to catch.

The harlequins are afraid of me when I have a net or the scissors. They're not as hard to corner as the otos for sure, but I haven't tried to actually catch them yet. Catching otos requires removing hardscape in my experience. 😛