The Accidental Oto Keeper

[Torrey]

ORD

{Offers hugs to both}

[CT_]

On 2/16/2022 at 12:03 PM, Torrey said:

ORD

{Offers hugs to both}

Don't want to veer too off topic, but I've seen ORD twice and can't figure out what it means. 

[Torrey]

On 2/16/2022 at 1:51 PM, CT_ said:

Don't want to veer too off topic, but I've seen ORD twice and can't figure out what it means. 

Out of Reactions for the Day...

But I randomly seem to find more every few hours?🤔

Reactions are a true mystery, just some of the magic in Nermlandia!

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS VITTATUS: The 2 Gallon QT

Well it appears we are over the hump for now. Thanks to the assistance of @Colu and @Odd Duck you two are absolute assets to the forum thank you for being around for support. The rest of you too, moral support really does help us in this hobby. The last 3 of 6 in QT are still with me, look significantly less red than they have been and are lively. I like how the bare floor of the QT reflects as they are not often on the sides of the tank for me to see. Did a water change this morning and all seems well. However, I will continue to 🤞

 

OTOCINCLUS COCAMA (AND VITTATUS): The Accidental Oto Tank

Things are going very well in the Accidental Tank. I'm actually supposed to be contacted tomorrow about getting additional Cocamas if the the LFS got them in. I may end up calling them if they don't call me shortly after opening. I have errands to run anyway. I've decided they'll go for QT in what would have been the Accidental Nursery but since I released all the juveniles I've got nothing waiting for that tank. It'll be nicer for them in there. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Colu]

Any signs of breeding active with your otocinclus cocama 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Sadly @Colu doesn't appear so. At least nothing I recognize as spawning behavior. I'm hoping adding to their numbers (since I only have 5) and genetic diversity spark something. My Vittaus did their biggest number in March of last year so I'm hoping the time of year may also help- but it's just a guessing game. I'll have to get a few more Vittatus as I was planning on splitting the 6 I got in this last batch to the Accidental Tank and the Parent Tank. I'm trying to maintain the same habits that I've always had as I'm not sure what triggered it to happen. 

[Colu]

From  what i have read some species Otto's are seasonal spawns large water changes with cool water might work I have ever seem someone make a contraption to simulate rain with the ends of watering cans to Tigger spawning

Edited February 17, 2022 by Colu

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Well @Colu I change water every day in the Accidental Tank and the water I use is prepared usually the day before or within the week (I have 10, one gallon bottles for water changes). They are most certainly cooler than their tank is- I'll try and make them even cooler by just putting them on the floor. So between that and adding more potential mates (maybe even time of year) I'm hoping the Cocama will spawn. I do pretty regular water changes which I think is what started the first spawn in the Parent Tank, but it was more than 1x a week then. 

Edited February 17, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Colu]

A lot of people have success with 50% water changes with cooler water that what I use to do to breed my panda Cory's over years I must of have hundreds of fry off them before I rehomed them

Edited March 5, 2022 by Colu

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Hahaha, well @Colu let us remember that I'm the Accidental Breeder. I'll be happy with just a few. I don't have the capacity for hundreds. Remember your guppy space? Yea that's me right now. Small batches I'd be SUPER thrilled with. 

[Colu]

On 2/17/2022 at 12:46 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

Hahaha, well @Colu let us remember that I'm the Accidental Breeder. I'll be happy with just a few. I don't have the capacity for hundreds. Remember your guppy space? Yea that's me right now. Small batches I'd be SUPER thrilled with. 

That part of the fun 😄 the more the merry 

[Torrey]

On 2/16/2022 at 4:48 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

Sadly @Colu doesn't appear so. At least nothing I recognize as spawning behavior. I'm hoping adding to their numbers (since I only have 5) and genetic diversity spark something. My Vittaus did their biggest number in March of last year so I'm hoping the time of year may also help- but it's just a guessing game. I'll have to get a few more Vittatus as I was planning on splitting the 6 I got in this last batch to the Accidental Tank and the Parent Tank. I'm trying to maintain the same habits that I've always had as I'm not sure what triggered it to happen. 

I know that Laura Main (yay! Her full name came back to me! A post-covid stroke win!!!) monitored the weather for breeding her otos.

I just can't remember if it was a pressure drop, or rising pressure, of a storm system moving in. I do remember it involved a significant water change that dropped the temp 2° to trigger hers to spawn for more than one oto species. 

If you are on fb, she's still on and moderates one of the betta groups (how I originally found her, before I realized FB is bad for my blood pressure 😬)

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Torrey. I'm with you. I've NEVER had social media of any kind. When it started years ago I said to myself, that sounds a whole lot like highschool. I hated that um, stuff, the first time around (and I wasn't bullied or a bad student- I just thought the whole thing was an exercise in silly dramas and total futility)- not doing THAT again. Boy was I ever right. Not only is it like highschool it also seems to KEEP people in that mentality. Yeah. No. Thank. You. 

I guess the forum could technically be "social" media but forums were around prior to those sites that will not be named and we didn't consider them that then. However, if this forum was like the other forums I wouldn't be HERE either. HERE we share ideas and opinions and educate each other.

I'm just happy doing this without researching anything- because I'm not really trying- I'm just doing my thing, hoping I'm a decent fish keeper- and that my fish will reward me for it.

Edited February 17, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX
to clarify

[Torrey]

On 2/16/2022 at 6:13 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@Torrey. I'm with you. I've NEVER had social media of any kind. When it started years ago I said to myself, that sounds a whole lot like highschool. I hated that um, stuff, the first time around (and I wasn't bullied or a bad student- I just thought the whole thing was an exercise in silly dramas and total futility)- not doing THAT again. Boy was I ever right. Not only is it like highschool it also seems to KEEP people in that mentality. Yeah. No. Thank. You. 

I guess the forum could technically be "social" media but forums were around prior to those sites that will not be named and we didn't consider them that then. However, if this forum was like the other forums I wouldn't be HERE either. HERE we share ideas and opinions and educate each other.

I'm just happy doing this without researching anything- because I'm not really trying- I'm just doing my thing, hoping I'm a decent fish keeper- and that my fish will reward me for it.

ORD 😍😍😍

I used the other place as long as I was able, and made some great friends doing awesome work. 

Sadly, it took a turn for the worse over the past 6 years, and I just can't. 🤷‍♂️

[Hobbit]

@xXInkedPhoenixX if you decide you want to start tracking pressure, I use an app called WeatherX. It’s meant for people that get pressure-triggered migraines, and I use it to try to figure out why I feel so crummy sometimes. Sometimes it correlates with a pressure change, and sometimes it doesn’t, but it makes me feel better if I can blame the weather a little bit. 😅 Anyway. It’s free and it has a five day forecast.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

THE NITRATE EXPERIMENT (aka: FUN WITH PLANTS): The Accidental Oto Tank

So I started the experiment late last year. 3 of my tanks stay at 40 ppm Nitrate. If you remember I started with 1 baby spider plant, 1 small Pothos cutting and then later added Lucky Bamboo all from plants I've had for years. At first I saw a slight dip in Nitrates but then they came right back up the next week, and here it is working on about 3 months later- still the Nitrates refuse to budge. However, I haven't lost hope- the plants themselves are doing well all of them are growing and their root systems getting longer and longer! 

This week's parameters for the tank:

Temp: 75.6 (no heater, same as last test)

pH: 7.8 (same as last test)

Ammonia: 0

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: 40, the unbudgeable number apparently.

KH: 4/71.6 (same as last test)

GH: 179 (up a space from last test)

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS VITTATUS: The once 2 Gallon QT

So, since the remaining 3 Otos in QT seem to be sticking around for now I upgraded them to my biggest QT which is a 3 gallon QT. If in the future I'm unable to do a water change due to overtime they should be ok in there as opposed ot the 2 gallon. I think I'll be getting another one of those and scraping my 3 smaller QTs or keeping 1 and tossing the other 2. 

 

***also mentioning that though my LFS was expecting O.Cocama this last week they did not get them in. I stopped by to check. (I have trust issues lol- so when they didn't call I wanted to make sure). I asked the guy at the counter he said they are still on the list but since they're wild they are not always in stock (as I suspected they are wild caught- this is why I hope to be able to breed them). He assured me they would call. I'll probably still pop in periodically. 

Do you all have this experience? All of my LFS don't answer their phones. I get a couple of them not answering as they are ALWAYS pretty busy but the one I'm trying to get O.Cocama from- I walk in and yes there are people there but there are 4-5 employees and not all of them are busy. It's a very small store. Thankfully it's only 10 minutes from my house. 

[Hobbit]

On 2/20/2022 at 11:14 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

Do you all have this experience? All of my LFS don't answer their phones. I get a couple of them not answering as they are ALWAYS pretty busy but the one I'm trying to get O.Cocama from- I walk in and yes there are people there but there are 4-5 employees and not all of them are busy. It's a very small store. Thankfully it's only 10 minutes from my house.

My LFS only had one employee present usually (and it’s often the owner). He’s actually really good about answering the phone if he’s free. Unfortunately his message machine is full and there’s basically no way to get ahold of him in any other way. I just have to call during business hours. I hate to be bothering him when he might have other customers but it’s his preferred method so I go with it!

[Torrey]

On 2/20/2022 at 9:14 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

OTOCINCLUS VITTATUS: The once 2 Gallon QT

So, since the remaining 3 Otos in QT seem to be sticking around for now I upgraded them to my biggest QT which is a 3 gallon QT. If in the future I'm unable to do a water change due to overtime they should be ok in there as opposed ot the 2 gallon. I think I'll be getting another one of those and scraping my 3 smaller QTs or keeping 1 and tossing the other 2. 

 

***also mentioning that though my LFS was expecting O.Cocama this last week they did not get them in. I stopped by to check. (I have trust issues lol- so when they didn't call I wanted to make sure). I asked the guy at the counter he said they are still on the list but since they're wild they are not always in stock (as I suspected they are wild caught- this is why I hope to be able to breed them). He assured me they would call. I'll probably still pop in periodically. 

Do you all have this experience? All of my LFS don't answer their phones. I get a couple of them not answering as they are ALWAYS pretty busy but the one I'm trying to get O.Cocama from- I walk in and yes there are people there but there are 4-5 employees and not all of them are busy. It's a very small store. Thankfully it's only 10 minutes from my house. 

My LFS has my cell. We all work best with asynchronous communication. The LFS prefers asynchronous, so they can help whatever customer walks in. I prefer asynchronous because autistic, and performance demand anxiety combined with stroke a year ago makes me stumble over spoken words. 

We have a good working relationship, primarily because I have a vested interest in the store doing well. It's in walking distance, and I want the store to succeed so I exclusively deal with only this LFS.

Lots of problems with supply chain, and a lot of concern that Lacey Act will make it harder. They have offered to supply me with tanks and supplies, if I would breed the hard to keep in stock animals, but my health is not reliable enough to take on the more delicate species. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS COCAMA (TIGER/ZEBRA, WHATEVER FLOATS YOUR BOAT): The Cocama Hotel 

So over my days off I got a phone call from the LFS- of course I answered the call. "Hi, this is Mike from LFS, you're on our list about the Zebra Otos" This was Wednesday afternoon. I said yes that's me. He told me they got 10 and would I want to come in today or should he acclimate them and I come in another time? I said I'll be there tomorrow! 

Thursday morning at 11 (their opening time) I walked in. Mike was on the phone so I spoke with another employee who didn't know where they were. I was ok with that- I am not in a hurry and I like looking. I did find them eventually in with some other kind of middle dweller I don't remember. The wet erase marker on the aquarium said "HOLD ALL" (so cool!!). I never take pictures as I'm just so wrapped up in the present- which is ok with me- not so much when you're journalling. Anyhow- there were my future fishies and they looked pretty good. I found it funny they kept correcting me when I'd say Tiger Otos (they apparently like Zebra better, they'd say "oh the Zebra Otos"- I didn't bother saying they go by both). I told them I'll take them all. The gal helping me took a while to catch them (they're hard to catch, even though they are 3x the size of a regular Oto they are just as quick/wiley). Guy at the counter said I'll have Mike ring you up. We had chatted a little bit about what I'm trying to do and that I'd already got Vittatus to breed. They (meaning all the employees when I mention it) tell me they've never heard of anyone doing this. He also said thanks for answering the phone (and not letting it go to voicemail was the hint I think)- I said of course, the shop is in my phone so I didn't miss the call, I was very excited about the prospect. He then just flat offered to give me a discount on them (they last sold them to me for $19.99) and said I'll sell them to you for $15/ea. Wow. How nice. Really didn't expect that and totally prepared for the cost. 

Anyhow the plan was since the Accidental Nursery was no longer needed because I released the babies I did have (8 total in 2 different tanks). Now it has been temporarily dubbed the Cocama Hotel- it's a 5.5 gallon glass tank with plants, wood and substrate. Though it's been running and cycled- I doubled down when I got home I switched out a sponge filter from the Parent Tank while they temp acclimated. This tank is my coldest tank and I had a "preset" heater for smaller tanks- I let it run a while even after I released the Otos and the temp reached over 80 degrees despite the "78" set temp. So before I went to bed I set up a Pymeter I'd gotten for my heater backups. I don't want them in too warm of water as they'll need to get used to a bit cooler waters in my unheated tanks and of course I have 0 trust in heaters not going wonky on me. 

I also borrowed the Accidental Tank's food bowl as anything I had that could contain the food was too big for this tank and even this bowl is a little bigger than I'd like since I don't want anyone squeezing between things. So clear glass food bowls are on order for this tank. I'm actually really happy with the glass canister lid I'm using in the Accidental tank....it may stay....haha. 

The pics I got aren't great- there's lots of glare because it's close to windows despite my having closed blinds, and I do have a short google video of their release (sorry no youtube vids for me). 

The short video of the release: https://photos.app.goo.gl/wvMKzrmiBGncTmRP7 (special shout out to @Fish Folk....in this video we'll see the use of a cell phone tripod 😉 )

This morning I treated the tank with Expel P because they are wild caught (confirmed with LFS). I thought this would be a better choice than Paracleanse as it's only a 24 hour treatment. I don't want to over expose them to meds if I can help it. After this treatment I'm hoping not to medicate more. They look very good so far. I can't see all 10 at once and they blend very well in the dark tank. I'm keeping it dark for the meds but I also have a very weak light on the tank at the moment (a light is also on order with the glass feeding dishes).

OK SOOO......

My plan:

I've given this a lot of thought. I don't really want to add 10 more fish to the Accidental Tank- though I'm sure I can manage it- it's not ideal. My plan is thus: I'm going to be moving the Harlequins from my Parent Tank (original tank and original occupants of which there are 10) to my Angry Man tank- only occupants there being my 10 Black Neons and 3 Nerites with bladder snails. This will happen in the next week or two so I can see how the 2 species get along. I'm hoping all will be well with them because I'm not sure yet what to do if it doesn't go well. Really there is no reason why it shouldn't both species are relatively shy and keep to themselves. The only reason I worry a little is that neither have had to contend with another middle dweller species since I got them. I'm hoping I'll be surprised and they will actually seem to enjoy the company of other fish sharing the space.

I will then when QT is up add the 3 Vitattus to the Parent Tank (for genetic diversity- I will get a few more to QT after that for the Accidental Tank- same purposes), then after that the Tiger Otos (all 10) will be released into the Parent Tank. I may even at some point catch the other 5 in the Accidental tank- and add them as well. But only after I'm sure the tank is stable after each movement/release. This is in hopes to get them to spawn. 🤞🤞

Edited February 25, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX
rearranging...

[CT_]

On 2/25/2022 at 9:48 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

I never take pictures as I'm just so wrapped up in the present- which is ok with me- not so much when you're journalling.

This is the way to live 🙂

 

On 2/25/2022 at 9:48 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

He then just flat offered to give me a discount on them (they last sold them to me for $19.99) and said I'll sell them to you for $15/ea. Wow. How nice. Really didn't expect that and totally prepared for the cost. 

Thats pretty cool of him.  I imagine since he just housed the fish for a day that his overhead is less so he had room to be nice.  Still very cool of him.  Maybe he's also hoping you'll bring babies back 😉.  I don't even have space but I'd jump on tank raised O. cacama if I saw them in the shop.

 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@CT_ Yea I'm not great at taking pictures- I enjoy being in the moment- and really- pictures never really do things justice than the in person experience- you can't see anything with a cell phone in your face. Or a camera for that matter (yeah I have a really nice one of those that is lovingly stored). 

It was really cool of him to give a discount. You're right about him giving a discount (possible overhead savings- it is a very small store and I DID buy them out) but you'd think it'd be from a special order or a very frequent customer. I didn't have a problem at all paying full price- already had it calculated. He'd said he'd had them on order for weeks and it just depends on what the wholesaler gets. I'd think that rare fish or wild caught that are not as common would be a commodity they would not discount. It is a small store though, and I don't know what mark up is on fish like this. They are worth every penny though. I hope that I WILL have babies in the future to sell to him. 

Edited February 25, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS COCAMA (TIGER): The 5 gallon QT/Cocama Hotel has been abandoned!

Well fishy friends, it seems after I switched out the filter from my Parent tank to the 5 gallon where my 10 new O.Cocama were -it caused (at least I think this would have been the culprit)- a bacterial bloom. Knowing better than to, but trying to avoid a Nitrite spike I was changing water every day- this didn't solve any problems of course. On top of the fact that I could not do a roll call AT ALL due to the fog even after the 50% water change- I could only see those who were close to or hanging on the glass which was not many. So defeated there and seeing at least a couple of the Tigers not acting right (read: not swimming right nor attaching the glass in a successful way) I decided I needed to pull them out before matters went totally downhill there. This just a small section of the tank, you should be able to clearly see the coconut hut on the back wall.  

After pulling them all (you have no idea how relieved I was to have found all 10) I put in another filter this one has been out of commission for a while (read: dry and not pulled from another tank) and left a piece of wood with plants and another rock with Anubias there. Hopefully in a week or so- keeping my hands off of it- I'll be able to reconsider using it. I had been of course checking levels every day with strips (both tetra o and aco ammonia strips) and they'd been in the "safe" levels but I was starting to see evidence of Nitrite even after my water change today. I wasn't going to take any more chances with water parameters.

Thankfully I'd recently purchased another 3 gallon QT tank after swearing off the 2 and smaller sizes. I pulled one of the pieces of wood from the 5 with plants on it, a rock with a plant and the filter (which I squeezed out several times) and added some Aquarium Salt. I was going to treat them one more time with Expel P and leaving them in the 5 would not have been ideal at this point since I literally cannot see them. So I dosed that as well. They all LOOK good, coloring is dark, gill area is a normal light pink- however some are not as fat as I would like - I'm concerned there- so besides the biofilm from the pieces I put in I left them a little Repashy Super Green, a piece of Hikari Algae Wafer and a piece of a small block of frozen bloodworms. I'm hoping the cleaner water and DAILY water changes will help. I got the original 6 through QT in a 2 gallon with daily water changes I KNOW I can get these 10 through it as well in a 3 gallon with some determination if the 5 won't be of assistance.

Worried fish keeper now that I am, I'm hoping I've avoided a disaster. All 10 did make it out of the QT so here's hoping I don't have any loses. They've made it this far to me, I hope they can live out the rest of their LONG lives.

Next week I'll be staying home on my days off and starting the move for the Harlequins from the Parent Tank to the Angry Man. I am hopeful that the numbers will actually encourage them ALL to be less shy and there are no fights I need to worry about. Black Neons and Harlequins are supposed to be COMMUNITY fish right???

Edited March 3, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX
rearranging...

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OK fishy friends, special attention to @Colu and @Odd Duckthe one Tiger Oto that was displaying issues is still this morning. Today while I was doing the water change (24hrs after a dose of Expel P) this one kept trying to get to the top of the tank and while doing so "whirling". I was able to easily lift them out and place them in a shallow bowl and they seemed to like that they were close to the surface. So after I serviced the tank for the day I put in a breeder box with an air stone and put it as high up as I could so that it could easily get to the surface (so I used a lot of suction cups/veggie clips). 

So what is it? 

Whirling disease is a parasite and I've done 2 treatments of Expel P (though it's supposed to effect the neurological center and near impossible to cure). 

Ammonia Poisoning? Don't think so- the 5 gallon never had any measurable Ammonia. There was possibly some Nitrite but it was not yet in the "caution" zone just not the EXACT color it should have been on the strip which is why I  moved them all yesterday. 

Swim Bladder? Possible. 

The tank after today's water change has whatever left of the Expel P, Aquarium Salt and IAL tea water. Suggestions? 

Sadly not sure if the fish will still be there when I get home after a 10 hour shift but if they are I'm willing to try whatever. All the other Otos appear well, food was eaten. 

[CT_]

I think swim bladder's on catfish are different.  they can gulp air to fill them.  So I don't think swim bladder problems present the same way. 

 

Also, any reason why you picked Super Green vs Soilent Green?  the soilent seems like the more "obvious" choice for otos.  (I'm asking your opinion to learn, not criticizing btw.  internet tone is hard to communicate)