The Accidental Oto Keeper

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS COCAMA (TIGER): The Cocama Hotel

Well fishy friends. Lost another Cocama today. This morning prior to water change after medicating yesterday one kind of listlessly swam into the food dish. I thought maybe it would perk up after the water change so I did it then, sucked up the old food that was in the dish with them and they didn't move but seemed alive at the time. Did the 50% water change, put in a piece of Polyfilter. I looked a few hours later, the Oto was still there. Deceased. Nothing stood out on its body that would give me a clue as to what is going on. The belly looked normal if maybe a little bloated but that could be a death in the water for a few hours thing. I don't know, otherwise coloring was great, eyes normal, no clamped fins before or after death. I'm stumped. 

I've been watching some of the others. I'm not as concerned about the ones stuck to the side of the glass but there are a few who are hanging out on the substrate- while not totally out of the ordinary, less likely most of the time. One or 2 of them are on the side of the glass but laying partly on the substrate. Allso concerning to me- as if they slid down there. Right now I'm down to 8 and keeping an eye on 2. The ones spending time on the substrate. More the one in the bottom picture below than the top one. The top one will speed away when I touch them the other just scoots a little kind of like the one that passed. I'm bracing myself for more losses....ugh....

No meds in the water now. Not sure if I should try anything else right now. Suggestions anyone?

Edited March 9, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Medication Update: Recent Med Order

So I guess I'll take back what I said about the small business a couple of entries ago. Today I got an envelope that has the Nitrofuracin "Green" in it repackaged the way the other med was but hey, they came through. Though the last shipment said "out of stock" apparently they were just refunding me for shipping adjustment not for the meds. Or something along those lines. It was made right regardless. I'd order from them again. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Odd Duck]

Second one has a trace of pink below that lateral stripe.  I think I’d get some light salt, tannins, and meds in with these kiddos. I tend to jump straight to Kanaplex since I want to stomp out infection fast.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Odd Duck I saw that too but have not been able to see it again on any of them. They got 2 rounds of Kanaplex prior to the Naladin and are currently in the Cocama Hotel with IAL tea water as I've started brewing it for all my tanks. Think I should dose Kanaplex again? I haven't put any salt in so far. 

[Odd Duck]

On 3/11/2022 at 11:02 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@Odd Duck I saw that too but have not been able to see it again on any of them. They got 2 rounds of Kanaplex prior to the Naladin and are currently in the Cocama Hotel with IAL tea water as I've started brewing it for all my tanks. Think I should dose Kanaplex again? I haven't put any salt in so far. 

Yes, I would do salt at one tablespoon per gallon.  And restart Kanaplex.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS COCAMA: The Cocama Hotel

So this morning a small water change was performed (with IAL infused water) and all of the 8 remaining Otos were still with me. Per advice from odd duck above I'll be dosing the water in the morning with meds and salt. At some point between yesterday evening and this morning I've seen them all at some point on the glass but it does look like they don't mind sitting on the substrate. Hopefully it's not because they are weak or still ill. Here's hoping the Kanaplex and salt take care of whatever might be left of the illnesses!

Edited March 12, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Colu]

Sorry to hear your still having problems after you have finished the course of kanaplex I would follow up with a course of  NALADIN hopefully that will do the trick

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS VITTATUS: The 3 Gallon QT

Been a while since I updated about the remaining 3 Otos that are still with me. They are going to be released into the Parent Tank I've decided this coming week. Originally I was going to put them in the Accidental Tank but since the move for the Harlequins has worked out very well I'm thinking about even adding Otos from the Accidental tank (including the Cocama) to the Parent Tank. Maybe even moving ALL of them there, a bit at a time of course. Then the 10 gallon Accidental Tank can then be what it was meant to be in the first place- a grow out! The big beautiful female stayed with me and is healthy and active along with her 2 other smaller tankmates (1 not pictured below and not the best pic as this is taken from above while the sponge filter moves the water). 

I already run 2 sponge driven filters in the Parent Tank but once I start adding more Otos I have a spare HOB (NIB) that I will also utilize for them. Maybe the sheer volume of Otos in one tank will spur the spawning provided I can keep that tank stable. It's my oldest and most stable tank with some very good plant life and plenty of various Amazon for them to lay eggs under. Here's hoping! Future plans!

Edited March 13, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX
1 more thing.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

***DEAD FISHY PICS DON'T CLICK IF YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE***

OTOCINCLUS COCAMA (TIGER): The Cocama Hotel ( @Odd Duck @Colu, little help here please if you would)

Well, I thought, 6 days having past -and 2nd dose (and 2nd round) of Kanaplex in I hadn't lost an Oto and they LOOK good-  that I was out of the woods. Sadly this afternoon I found one of them gone. So I'm down to 7 of 10. Uggh. So frustrating. Tomorrow is water change day and would have been Kanaplex Dose 3, should I go ahead with that? Or do I need to try something else. 

There has been no evidence of them eating the commercial foods I leave out for them (I clean up every day). But they seem to be surface munching the cucumber I leave for them as well as surfaces. They aren't as round as I'd like but their bellies aren't sunken and they move around and seem to swim normally. The water is kept in the 75-76 degree range helped by a heater and Pymeter which I don't normally do but it is my coldest tank since it's near a sliding door. There has been no Ammonia and it has strip and chemical tested well with 0 of the bad stuff and low on the Nitrates. 

However, when I pulled this last one it was pretty well red and pink in areas and it's belly was deflated. I'd checked the tank in the morning and wasn't able to get a full count but would have seen it if it were where it was when I discovered it this afternoon. There's no telling for sure when it died. Sometimes I wonder if it changes color after it passed because I don't see a lot of that before death. Still had decent coloring. The others are nice and dark and I just am not seeing the red that I'm seeing once they die. I'm at a loss. 

I feel it's not bacterial as we've got IAL, Salt and Kanaplex in the water. Should I switch back to parasitic or another antibiotic that will hit a different spectrum? 

Edited March 16, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS VITTATUS: The Parent Tank (from the 3 Gallon QT)

Today I decided to move the 3 Vittatus that have been in QT to the Parent tank. They are 3 very feisty little ones including the female I wanted to make sure got through and she did. Funny thing is, I'll probably never see them again because other than Momma Oto I very rarely see many of my Otos in the Parent tank- which now seems empty because the Harlequins are gone and hang out with the Black Neons now (they are doing well btw). Though I lost a Cocama today which was very sad, it was nice to release them into their new (and much better) world. The 3 gallon was decommissioned in a way as there are no other inhabitants now but for plants and wood from the Cocama Hotel I'm not putting back for a bit. I got out a now spare submersible 7" light with suction cups and attached that to the side of the 3 gallon- putting it on the stand under the Parent Tank. Thankfully the light also has its own built in timer since I'm low on outlets it's a good thing. So I guess for now I have a little spare plant tank. 

[Colu]

On 3/16/2022 at 2:57 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

***DEAD FISHY PICS DON'T CLICK IF YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE***

OTOCINCLUS COCAMA (TIGER): The Cocama Hotel ( @Odd Duck @Colu, little help here please if you would)

Well, I thought, 6 days having past -and 2nd dose (and 2nd round) of Kanaplex in I hadn't lost an Oto and they LOOK good-  that I was out of the woods. Sadly this afternoon I found one of them gone. So I'm down to 7 of 10. Uggh. So frustrating. Tomorrow is water change day and would have been Kanaplex Dose 3, should I go ahead with that? Or do I need to try something else. 

There has been no evidence of them eating the commercial foods I leave out for them (I clean up every day). But they seem to be surface munching the cucumber I leave for them as well as surfaces. They aren't as round as I'd like but their bellies aren't sunken and they move around and seem to swim normally. The water is kept in the 75-76 degree range helped by a heater and Pymeter which I don't normally do but it is my coldest tank since it's near a sliding door. There has been no Ammonia and it has strip and chemical tested well with 0 of the bad stuff and low on the Nitrates. 

However, when I pulled this last one it was pretty well red and pink in areas and it's belly was deflated. I'd checked the tank in the morning and wasn't able to get a full count but would have seen it if it were where it was when I discovered it this afternoon. There's no telling for sure when it died. Sometimes I wonder if it changes color after it passed because I don't see a lot of that before death. Still had decent coloring. The others are nice and dark and I just am not seeing the red that I'm seeing once they die. I'm at a loss. 

I feel it's not bacterial as we've got IAL, Salt and Kanaplex in the water. Should I switch back to parasitic or another antibiotic that will hit a different spectrum? 

It's possible their a parastic infection going pink colour could have happened after they died as you have treated with paracleanse and Expel p and two courses of kanaplex I would treat with fish aids fenbendazole it's a stronger parasitic treatment I wouldn't do a third course of kanaplex 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Colu

[Odd Duck]

I would use the fenbendazole because of the flat belly, but I would also do the third round of Kanaplex because of the pinkness.  The pink could be a post-mortem change but it could also be acute peri-mortem change from sepsis.  Without testing, we can’t know what it is.  For all we know, it’s damage secondary to drugs used to collect them from the wild.  But you’ll just have to do what you can and hope to get them through this long enough to heal.  Sometimes we have to do “shotgun” treatments, meaning treat them with everything and hope something works.  Good luck.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Meds that I do not have keep getting brought up, any alternative to that one @Odd Duckand @Colu??

This med is sold out everywhere I looked. 

[Colu]

On 3/16/2022 at 1:30 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

Meds that I do not have keep getting brought up, any alternative to that one @Odd Duckand @Colu??

This med is sold out everywhere I looked. 

Thomas labs fish bendazole or you can use panacur c contains fenbendazole

[Odd Duck]

Panacur is easy enough to find in most any pet store or feed store.  Until you can find it, treat again with levamisole.  They have similar action but since you’ve already done a couple doses of levamisole and it didn’t seem to help, I was hoping a switch in dewormer might do the trick.  I’m sure @Coluwas thinking the same.  

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Ok, thank you @Odd Duckand @Colu. I'll see what an aquarium store has today, have to go to the feed store tomorrow. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Ok you two @Odd Duck @Colu, since I didn't have the medication immediately available to went ahead and dosed the 3rd and final Kanaplex today in the tank. I ended up at the feed store because it happened to be on my way out of town today. No Panacur C around anywhere but same med different brand. There are three 1 gram packets. It's a 5.5 gallon tank with about half a gallon worth of stuff in it so about 5 gallons net.

1. How much

2. How often

3. How long

Please and thank you. 🙃

Edited March 17, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Colu]

Adding to food the best way to treat with fenbendazole I would add to repashy and feed the medicated food twice a day for maximum of 21 days 

Edited March 17, 2022 by Colu

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Colu they're not really eating the commercial foods I've given them. I'm just cleaning the vast majority of it up every day. I've not witnessed them in the bowl. I even went as far as smooshing up some of the Repashy I feed them up and spreading some of it on the substrate. Can I not just put it in the water column or does that not work?

At least for now I think I need to dose in the water column until I can come up with a better plan. I don't have a scale so I found this from another forum, granted it's for planaria/hydra treatment in a shrimp tankk but being as how they can be more sensitive to treatments I think this is a good plan since I don't have a scale to measure out as tiny amount as I think I need and dose 5ml (I have droppers for that) out of 100ml of water with the fenbendazole in it. I'm not sure about dosing every 12hrs though, I might go 24. This is what I found:

1)buy Fenbendazole (Panacur, Safe-guard) 2)Mix 1 bag (1g) with 100 mL of drinking water. Shake VIGORIOUSLY! There will always be undissolved Fenbendazole settling on the bottom. The point of shaking is to make a saturated solution of Fenbendazole.
3) You will need to save the solution in a bottle for future treatment.

Dosing

1) DOSE is 0.1 g/10 gallons every 12 hours (prefer at night).
2) Use a SYRINGE to draw 10 mL of the solution (contain 0.1 g) and inject to your 10-gallon tank. If you have a 20-gallon tank, draw 20 mL of solution and so on.
3) Dose every 12 hours until all hydra and planaria are gone. Usually after 3 doses.
4) Do a 25% water change if you feel necessary. I don’t normally do that but my shrimps are still healthy and breed fast.
 

I personally used a pestle to crush up the granules to a fine powder before adding the water. 

Edited March 17, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Odd Duck]

On 3/17/2022 at 11:06 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@Colu they're not really eating the commercial foods I've given them. I'm just cleaning the vast majority of it up every day. I've not witnessed them in the bowl. I even went as far as smooshing up some of the Repashy I feed them up and spreading some of it on the substrate. Can I not just put it in the water column or does that not work?

At least for now I think I need to dose in the water column until I can come up with a better plan. I don't have a scale so I found this from another forum, granted it's for planaria/hydra treatment in a shrimp tankk but being as how they can be more sensitive to treatments I think this is a good plan since I don't have a scale to measure out as tiny amount as I think I need and dose 5ml (I have droppers for that) out of 100ml of water with the fenbendazole in it. I'm not sure about dosing every 12hrs though, I might go 24. This is what I found:

1)buy Fenbendazole (Panacur, Safe-guard) 2)Mix 1 bag (1g) with 100 mL of drinking water. Shake VIGORIOUSLY! There will always be undissolved Fenbendazole settling on the bottom. The point of shaking is to make a saturated solution of Fenbendazole.
3) You will need to save the solution in a bottle for future treatment.

Dosing

1) DOSE is 0.1 g/10 gallons every 12 hours (prefer at night).
2) Use a SYRINGE to draw 10 mL of the solution (contain 0.1 g) and inject to your 10-gallon tank. If you have a 20-gallon tank, draw 20 mL of solution and so on.
3) Dose every 12 hours until all hydra and planaria are gone. Usually after 3 doses.
4) Do a 25% water change if you feel necessary. I don’t normally do that but my shrimps are still healthy and breed fast.
 

I personally used a pestle to crush up the granules to a fine powder before adding the water. 

@Coluis right in that “in food’ is far more effective than “in water”, but if you can’t get them to eat any commercial food then “in water’ is the only option right now.  The brand you found is just fine.  Grinding it into powder is a good plan.

The dose I find for treating in water is 2 mg/liter of tank water every 7 days for 3 treatments.  So your 1 gram (1000 mg) pouches into 100 mls of water gives you 10 mg/ml solution.  At 2 mg/L, 5 gallons is 18.927 something liters, so call it 19 liters.  2 x 19 = 38 mg per your 5 gallons.  Divide the 38 mg by 10 mg/ml gives you 3.8 mls of solution per 5 gallons.  Yep, this is algebra.  Welcome to my life.  Every single patient, the entire shift.

Their math is wrong in your example by 10 fold, and their dose is excessive.  1000 mg (1 gram) into 100 mls gives you 10 mg/ml, NOT 100 mg/mL (stated in their example as 0.1 g/ml).  Their dose is also not correct and high enough to cause problems at 100 mg/gallon vs roughly 8 mg/gallon (2 mg/L).  Then to repeat twice daily?  I would expect neurological symptoms to appear in fish (IF they were absorbing it all).  The only reason this might still be safe is that fish won’t absorb all the drug in the water, but I would not be shocked to see fish deaths at the dosage following these instructions.  A single dose at this level would likely be OK, but twice daily for 3 days.  Seems like bad news.

My dose comes from James Carpenter’s Exotic Animal Formulary.  The source of the dose is a book titled “Fish Disease, Diagnosis, and Treatment” by Edward J. Nioga.  The algebra is my own.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Soooo I believe your math @Odd Duck.  3.8ml. I changed out a little water based on that (but far less based on math). 

Do I leave it for a few days and do a water change and dose again?

Edited March 17, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Odd Duck]

I would use it similar to levamisole - leave it 24 hours, water change, repeat weekly for 3 doses.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS COCAMA (TIGER): The Cocama Hotel

Well. I haven't posted because I'm not happy with the situation. None of the medications seem to be working and I keep losing Cocama. I am down to nearly 4 of 10 as I discovered one dead when I got home today and one is on its way out. The 2 doses I was into of Safe Guard aka Fenbendazole have not improved the situation. So as a last ditch since I've already done Kanaplex, Expel P and the Fenbendazole I was on dose 2 of a 5 day treatment of ParaCleanse. I had dosed this morning and returned to the deceased Oto which I'd figured as they were hanging out at the bottom of the tank and listless. I didn't expect to have 2 on their way out. At this point I'm not even really looking for advice. I just did a water change put some Polyfilter in and put a rounded tablespoon of salt in the tank. I expect to lose the remaining Otos. There is nothiing on the deceased Otos that give me a clue as to what is going on. The one I just picked out had a semi-rounded belly, no color loss, no obvious redness, a pink irridescent sheen to it but I've seen that on all my dead Otos so I think that's normal. Eyes are not cloudy no obvious physical signs. Whatever it is that they have is aggressive and relentless. The Otos seemed fine yesterday, all hanging on the glass, this morning 1 on the gravel. The one that's on the way out I scooped up off the gravel it very weakly tried to fight the net, can't really stay up well. I put it in a floating breeder in the tank expecting that it will probably go shortly here and debating on whether I should just euthanize them but not exactly how I'd like to end the day. Defeated, totally. If they all die I'll tear down this tank and nuke it, toss all the filtration, wood, maybe even the plants. If it is the parasite that causes Whirling Disease it's probably too late anyway as they parasite is supposedly released upon death of the fish. Well, then it's in the tank. I feel sick. 

I won't buy anymore Cocama. Plan is to take the Otos from the Accidental tank and try and add them all to the Parent tank that way if there is more babies they will go into the Accidental Tank and I'll be back down to 4 tanks (with the Accidental unoccupied until babies come). Of course it will take some time to add the Accidental Otos as I'll only add a handful at a time. 

Sorry guys, I thought this would be a cool thing, turns out it was a bad idea. What a bummer. 

[CT_]

That's rough :(

 

I really respect your attempt though and hope it doesn't discourage you from trying awesome stuff in the future.  I'm also still crossing my fingers for a miraculous recovery.

 

If you are going to go nuclear on the tank to clean it you can still boil the wood and save it for later. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I am now officially down to 4. 😞