The Accidental Oto Keeper

[dasaltemelosguy]

On 1/25/2022 at 7:06 AM, Odd Duck said:

MS222 is the most often recommended anesthetic for fish.  We have the most studies and information about its use vs other anesthetic drugs for fish.  It is notoriously difficult to get and usually only available at the university level or if someone sees a lot of fish.  I’ve used it during fish surgery labs but never had it available in practice.  I’ve mostly used propofol (a commonly used injectable anesthetic) mixed into water, then plain, dechlorinated water is used alternately with the anesthetic mixture (no matter which anesthetic is used) as needed to reduce the anesthetic depth if needed.  

@Odd Duck, I was wondering what you think of this drug?

Koi Sedate

Prior to finding this I used clove oil to euthanize but I hate the discomfort the fish seem to be in during the process if you misjudge and go too quickly.

I find this stuff a blessing. And it is easily available online. 

I've dropped a fish in it, and they show no signs of discomfort and just tip over, completely unconscious it seems. On one rainbow with camallanus, I was able to pull the clogged worms out and he was fine after he awoke.

If it's to euthanize, a double dose and they effortlessly expire. In my very limited experience, it's the gentlest anesthetic I've tried by far. 

But my entire experience in this most dark side of the hobby is only with clove oil and this drug so I was wondering what you think of this drug compared to other options?

On 1/25/2022 at 7:06 AM, Odd Duck said:

I’ve done loads of free phone consults but only a very few people have actually paid me for work on fish.

Well, we should!

[eatyourpeas]

Just caught up with this! What a journey! I hope all goes well... 😍

[Odd Duck]

@dasaltemelosguy I’m not a big fan of clove oil or even purified eugenol.  Propofol is much kinder as an anesthetic or used prior to euthanasia.

I wasn’t familiar with the 2-phenoxyethanol, but a quick search found this study that compares multiple different drugs used for anesthesia for fish.  This study looks like it’s fairly old (I couldn’t find a date) because it talks about clove oil being new as a fish anesthetic (which it’s far from new).  I took these screen shots and it’s not something I would be comfortable using for anesthesia, but seems appropriate for euthanasia.  The reason I wouldn’t want to use it is the very low margin of safety between the effective dose and the lethal dose.

I’ll do some more reading, but I doubt it’s something I would typically want to use since it doesn’t appear to effectively stop involuntary muscle movement (which is needed for procedures/surgery).

Edited January 25, 2022 by Odd Duck
Typo and clarify

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I think I'm as prepared as I can be @Odd Duck she said bring extra water but didn't bother to mention how much. I have 2 gallons and a jar in my car. I'm bringing the patient in a 1 gallon (which is maybe more of a half to 3/4) QT tank, a mini sponge filter the sponge of which has been floating in their tank for a week. Run by a usb pump and lithium battery. I have an airstone in the pouch as well. I don't have any fish bags so sadly this will have to do. The heater situation is dodgy, I've used my mini heater in this tank for another QT and it cooked a couple of the inhabitants in this small of a tank 😔 so I will have to take my chance here. I have rubber mats and I'm not a crazy driver so hopefully they're ok on the 30 minute drive.

I DID mention to the doc last night about their size- their system didn't have the species in so I had to mention it to her. She hmm'd over it- I'm getting the impression they're not familar with O. Cocama. 

I'm feeling a bit nervous because the patient actually looks REALLY good today, I really think they've healed up more. I'm almost hoping they just say good job, just keep doing what you're doing- isn't that crazy?

Ok, gotta get in a drive! 🤞

 

[Odd Duck]

I think you’re pretty set, then.  Your transport container is good with only a 30 minute drive, especially with air.  Drive safely and keep us posted!  We’re all invested in the outcome!

You likely won’t even need the 2 gallons.  It’s just in case.

[dasaltemelosguy]

On 1/25/2022 at 8:52 AM, Odd Duck said:

The reason I wouldn’t want to use it is the very low margin of safety between the effective dose and the lethal dose.

I’ll do some more reading, but I doubt it’s something I would typically want to use since it doesn’t appear to effectively stop involuntary muscle movement (which is needed for procedures/surgery).

Thanks. That makes a lot of sense. I'm no fan of clove oil either if there's an alternative available. This stuff is very peaceful in effect, but the ED/LD is that tight? Scary stuff!

On 1/25/2022 at 8:52 AM, Odd Duck said:

 

 

 

[Odd Duck]

On 1/25/2022 at 11:05 AM, dasaltemelosguy said:

This stuff is very peaceful in effect, but the ED/LD is that tight? Scary stuff!

If you’re doing super short procedures, you’re likely safe.  Especially if you pop the fish out as soon as they go lateral (sideways), do what you need to do, then pop them straight back into clean water.  Longer procedures would not be good with this with such a close margin for safety.

[Odd Duck]

@dasaltemelosguy Found a bit more.  This is a compilation and comparison of many studies and was even less favorable for the 2-phenoxyethanol.

 

[dasaltemelosguy]

On 1/25/2022 at 10:10 AM, Odd Duck said:

@dasaltemelosguy Found a bit more.  This is a compilation and comparison of many studies and was even less favorable for the 2-phenoxyethanol.

 

Great information! It looks like its limitations are as you suspected. Best for euthanasia. Thanks so much. 

[Odd Duck]

On 1/25/2022 at 12:22 PM, dasaltemelosguy said:

Great information! It looks like its limitations are as you suspected. Best for euthanasia. Thanks so much. 

It’s probably OK for how you used it also, to gently remove impacted Camallanus worms.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

This might be the most anticlimactic story you will ever read....and let me have you keep this in mind, since I stopped the Epsom soaks after the last one a few weeks ago I haven't really looked much at the patient- just made sure they were there and alive and that's about it. With the IAL in the tank they're nearly impossible to see with great detail. So we got in the car, we drove to the University. I got out and put the patient on top of the car.....there in the sunlight I could very clearly see...holy sheetbombs this fish has healed infinitely more than I even knew! I was slackjawed, it's hard to tell from this pic but his eye is nearly back flush with the head- the once kind of loose/bubble-like skin around it is a lot tighter. The eye is clear. Honestly if the healed injured skin around the eye had it's natural coloring back you would NOT BE ABLE TO TELL the eye was ever injured. I got giddy. Then I felt bad. Now what? Am I justified in putting patient through the stress of anesthesia? But I have this appointment and I HATE cancelling appointments especially since it was pretty much appointment time.....CRAP. So I stood there and thought. And thought. Either way I have to at least go to the check in and talk to them. I was leaning towards not doing this because of the stress it would be put through. I walked up and the gal came to me, I explained the situation and I showed her the difference from what it was to what it is now- she said yeah, it looks so much better, I wouldn't do it either. Now she's not a vet, but I told her, I'm completely willing to have them take a LOOK at the Oto to make sure but she said no, I don't think so, I'll tell them. I told her to apologize profusely for me. It just kind of maybe confirmed for me this was the right thing to do. So here I am back at home, patient back in the 2 gallon QT that was freshly cleaned this morning. I also just got off the phone with one of the staff, they asked me if I was still there with "Tiger" I explained again and I apologized again (I feel so bad about THEIR time)- but I do really think ultimately it was the right thing for my fish, felt it in my gut- I hope I'm right....take a look: 

Edited January 25, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Torrey]

IAL plus patience and reduced stress has given me more than one miracle story. 

I agree with you, that I wouldn't want to put him through the anesthesia stress. If you have the resources, I have been in a similar situation (overnight reversal of symptoms), so I paid the vet a $60 no show/ late cancelation fee like I would for almost any doctor appointment. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Torrey I would have gladly paid them money if it were their policy. I have total respect for Veterinary medicine. It would have been more than worth the money to see what I saw this morning. I'm going to donate the money I would have paid to my favorite animal charities. 

[Torrey]

You have an amazing vet school!

Ours had zero problems taking a late cancelation fee. What a great program and opportunity. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Beause of @Torrey and my back and forth about how lucky I am to even have a hospital in my area that COULD help me I went on their website and found a way to donate! (The rest of the full amount it would have cost me will still go out to my other regular animal charities.) I'm grateful for the living I make and I am glad that the money doesn't have to go to just one thing but because of my apparrent fortune with the Oto's recovery it can help other animals! : 

[Odd Duck]

On 1/25/2022 at 12:44 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

This might be the most anticlimactic story you will ever read....and let me have you keep this in mind, since I stopped the Epsom soaks after the last one a few weeks ago I haven't really looked much at the patient- just made sure they were there and alive and that's about it. With the IAL in the tank they're nearly impossible to see with great detail. So we got in the car, we drove to the University. I got out and put the patient on top of the car.....there in the sunlight I could very clearly see...holy sheetbombs this fish has healed infinitely more than I even knew! I was slackjawed, it's hard to tell from this pic but his eye is nearly back flush with the head- the once kind of loose/bubble-like skin around it is a lot tighter. The eye is clear. Honestly if the healed injured skin around the eye had it's natural coloring back you would NOT BE ABLE TO TELL the eye was ever injured. I got giddy. Then I felt bad. Now what? Am I justified in putting patient through the stress of anesthesia? But I have this appointment and I HATE cancelling appointments especially since it was pretty much appointment time.....CRAP. So I stood there and thought. And thought. Either way I have to at least go to the check in and talk to them. I was leaning towards not doing this because of the stress it would be put through. I walked up and the gal came to me, I explained the situation and I showed her the difference from what it was to what it is now- she said yeah, it looks so much better, I wouldn't do it either. Now she's not a vet, but I told her, I'm completely willing to have them take a LOOK at the Oto to make sure but she said no, I don't think so, I'll tell them. I told her to apologize profusely for me. It just kind of maybe confirmed for me this was the right thing to do. So here I am back at home, patient back in the 2 gallon QT that was freshly cleaned this morning. I also just got off the phone with one of the staff, they asked me if I was still there with "Tiger" I explained again and I apologized again (I feel so bad about THEIR time)- but I do really think ultimately it was the right thing for my fish, felt it in my gut- I hope I'm right....take a look: 

There is still some mild swelling, but it looks sooo much better!  With time, there’s even a chance the pigment could return more to normal.  And thank you for the support of vet med!

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Odd Duck totally agreed, there's definitely some swelling left there which may or may not go away but it was ridiculously better compared to the last day I had them out, January 5th so I just couldn't do the appointment- the healing is still very much progressing on its own and I didn't want to risk putting them out. Had it not been any better (especially to this level) I would have seen if there was anything they could do. Here are pics of Jan 5th and yesterday January 25th side by side: 

Thank YOU @Odd Duck, if it weren't for you and others in this forum with the support and advice you gave this Tiger may not have gotten this far. Respect. Totally.

Edited January 26, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS VITATTUS AND COCAMA: The Accidental Oto Tank

Otocinclus After Dark

For a lighter switch to my recent posts: I have a clip on light that is pointed at the baby nitrate experiment plants (spider and pothos). Since I don't have anymore outlets to plug in a timer (which is ok this isn't a bright light) it gives me a pleasant view into the Oto tank at night before I turn the light off. They are more active when the lights are off and have their hiding places during the day. I like to watch their little silhouettes dancing across the tank, occassionally sticking to the sides. Looks like moonlight to me. Saw one of the Cocama and one of the Vitattus under the bamboo roots and I thought it made for a pretty picture: 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS COCAMA: The 2 Gallon QT

59 days into treatment of popeye....So just to illustrate why the only thing I do now is suck out old food and detrius with a turkey baster every morning and reload the food, and then make sure the patient is present and accounted for....

While I am working on using more Catappa leaves in 2 of my tanks (maybe expanding to all my tanks eventually depending on how this goes), I don't want a SUPER dark tank just a slight tint is fine. This QT is too dark for a regular tank for me and while I can admire what it apparently has been helping my popeye patient with I suspect it doesn't have to be THIS dark for benefits to healthy fish in other tanks. Anyway the patient is in there...

Things are still looking good. I'm thinking of keeping the patient in this tank for at least another month and check where we are at- if they are significantly better or exactly the same I may release them into the Accidental tank and hopefully by that time there is a ramp up of IAL tannins in there for them and the rest of the Otos. Any additional thoughts on this specifically are definitely welcome as I've never experienced this before I think often about when the right time would be to have them return home. 

Edited January 29, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX
rearranging...

[CT_]

I hope you name him waldo 😉

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@CT_ 😄 I totally wish I knew if my patient was male or female because I totally would. I think Waldo had a girlfriend though....

.....1 GTS later....yep Wanda...I'd be good with either.

Edited January 30, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX
1 more thing.

[Odd Duck]

@xXInkedPhoenixX I have no brilliant thoughts for you in regard to timing.  I would probably keep Waldo/Wanda separated with weekly pictures.  Once there is no visible difference between weekly pics for at least a couple weeks, I’d say s/he is as healed as possible and worth risking going back with the others.  At least as long as there’s no one else in the tank that might be tempted by an odd looking eye.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Odd Duck thank you that's a decent measure with which to judge if I can get decent pictures through the tea! 🙂 I don't think they would be in any danger in the Accidental Oto tank from other fish as there are only the Otos in there. The only potential danger is them wacking themselves again. I believe I've arranged the tank in a way that there are no tight fits if anyone squeezes between things- not that there was much before but I think it's even better now. Not knowing how the original injury occurred of course we have to try and eliminate all possibilities!

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS COCAMA (TIGER): The 2 Gallon QT

61 Days into QT: YOU GUUYYYSSSS....seriously the patient is doing so very well. The water is very very very dark so the only time I can see detail is when they are out of the tank or very close to the sides. Today they moved while I was cleaning and stuck themselves to the side of the tank so I got an opportunity to snap some pictures. Lookie here:

 SO much better than Day 1:

I am so stoked. 

[Odd Duck]

@xXInkedPhoenixX Looking sooooo good!  Continuing to make progress!  This really is amazing how well this kid has done.  An amazing amount of dedication on your part to get this far!

Edited February 2, 2022 by Odd Duck