The Accidental Oto Keeper

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS VITTATUS: The Angry Man Tank

Mission: Oto Rescue: Remove all Otos from Angry Man Tank because snails are food greedy little *****. So as I mentioned previously I've been on a daily Oto hunt in my Angry Man Tank. I've had a few Otos die with no signs of disease and my only suspicion is because the snails eat the food before the Otos do- or they just don't get enough. This tank is pretty algae free because of 3 Spiked Nerites (Lock, Shock and Barrel) and a smattering of uninvited bladdersnails (we've made our peace with them). Today while hunting I wasn't expecting to find anyone, just looked in the usual places. Otos love sponge filters. Mine very often hang out on the base under the sponge. Voila! I saw one! Grabbed a net and decided usually since they're pretty stubborn about hanging onto the filter until it's out of the water I'd TRY to catch them by putting the net under the filter just prior to pulling it out of water. BAM! I caught them! Woohoo! (Catching Otos is hard in an established tank you guys, so this was a BIG relief) I previously said I thought the last one I caught was the only one left. Now I'm questioning how many of them I put in here. Oh my mind. The daily hunt will continue until at least 2 weeks have passed with no sightings- just. in. case. The little one was put into The Accidental Oto tank with it's siblings- they will be much happier there. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS COCAMA: The Accidental Oto Tank

I am super defeated today, very sad. My Oto tank tested well but for continuing high Nitates, which potentially could be a problem. I will speak of conditions of the tank more. 

What I did find was one of my beautiful Tiger Otos has gotten Popeye. This is a strange thing to hope but I'm HOPING that it's due to an injury and not a problem with the tank as a whole. This started off a chain reaction. 

This never happens on a day you have time. It's my "monday" and I was even due to go to work early. I thought I was doing well with time until this. 

SO decisions had to be made. Treat the tank or treat the fish? 

Fish. My logic here: This is a tank of 40 or so fish- with 7 small fry- I thought about moving them for a second but decided if nobody else is showing symptoms (that I can see) it's best just to pull the 1 fish. But if we (meaning me there is no we) treat the fish where is the Oto going--- the QTs are full (4 Endlers 16 days into QT and 9 spiked Nerites 1 day into QT). 

We have to pull the Endlers and put them into the Ember House aka Flex. The reason I was holding off on that was because the Flex just ended a round of heavy antibiotics and I was going to wait a couple of weeks with no signs until I added the new Endlers. They ALL seem ok (the inhabitants of the Flex and the new Endlers) but I wanted to be cautious. Unfortunately now I had no choice. Thankfully that tank tested wonderfully (with low nitrate) and I added a bigger sponge filter. 

Now. Catch the sick fish before I lose my chance. Thankfully they made it very easy for me. I grabbed two small shrimp nets and caught the little one on either side off the wood they sat on. Placed them in a floating breeder in the Oto tank until I got the rest sorted. 

The Endlers got moved 1 at a time to the Flex. I tried best I could to monitor interactions because the two residents are a bit much, constantly chasing each other- I'm hoping the new ones don't get overwhelmed and stressed, and hence sick. I'm feeling like I can't win here, but I'm really crossing my fingers. They seemed ok as much as I could check on them. I'm bummed about this because I love releasing new fish and watching how they explore their new tank. This was robbed from me today. 

That done I left the QT tank as is (some water was changed out just because of the fish move- it gets cleaned every day so it was really clean the Endlers were very polite house guests). I put my poor Tiger Oto in there. It's the only "damage" I can see so far on them. Again, not having a lot of time I did a quick search on the forum here to confirm with posts from @Colu my first instinct to use Maracyn. That confirmed (and I'm trying salt too, yes I know Otos, but I've treated them with salt before to no negative effects) I put the medication in and some salt. Put in some food for them. Otos are so calm and cooperative and I feel so bad about this poor Oto being ill. Like I said I really hope this is from an injury (Otos can be spazy at times) and he/she can be helped and I'm hoping this because only one eye seems afflicted. 

I had, like every day, changed out water, spot cleaned The Accidental Oto tank and given them new food. Today I added Prime and some Aquarium Salt in the HOB in case some bacterial is lurking in the tank. I had even just yesterday changed out their HOB filter and cleaned the pre-filter sponge. 

Water test was: 

Temp:78.5

pH: 7.4 (color looked closer to 7.4 than 7.6 as it tested last week but similar)

Ammonia: 0**

Nitrite: 0**

Nitrate: 80 (darker than 40 maybe but those reds are really close, but possible issue?)

Kh: 5/89.5 (this has gone up 2 degrees since last test- is this an issue?)

Gh: 179 (same)

If you have any ideas that can help me and my Otos out that would be appreciated. The little one seemed ok before I left for a 12 hour shift. We could both use a win right now. Pics of the poor thing below. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Colu]

Theirs a couple of things that can cause Popeye bacterial infection cause by poor water quality or an injury  if it's only effecting one eye and no other fish have  Popeye it's more than likely any injury and the eye should start to improve salt and maracyn are going to help provent any secondary infection  @xXInkedPhoenixX

Edited December 3, 2021 by Colu

[Guppysnail]

I second @Colu unilateral Popeye is more often an injury especially with no other symptoms or inhabitant issues. bilateral is most often bacterial etc. I also second the caution on on secondary infection. I’m keeping my fingers crossed for your little one. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by Guppysnail
Correct tag

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS COCAMA (TIGER): The 2 Gallon QT

Popeye patient: Day 4 MARACYN treatment. (Also tank dosed with Aquarium Salt on day 1 only since no water changes, roughly 1.75 TBLSP as the tank is not quite 2 gallons). Today it seems things are looking up a bit for my poor sick Tiger Oto. I'm not sure they're eating much as I clean up leftovers every day (thankfully since the QT tank has been running a while there should be plenty biofilm and sponge filter goodies for them as well as stuffs growing on the Narrow Leaf Java). As I've observed before with Vittatus the salt in the tank does not seem to be negatively affecting the Oto. They're not super active but that's to be expected with this type of infection with the research that I've done. 

No signs of any more Popeye in my Accidental Oto Tank.

I emailed Fritz. Their fish disease chart says they recommend Maracyn Two for Popeye yet both boxes of meds on the label and in the instruction sheet inside say they treat Popeye. So I asked them for clarification. I'll probably hear back from them some time this week. 

 

In comparing the picture of the day I found Tiger with a swollen eye and now they seem to be doing better, the skin around the eyeball is not red, more white and slightly less swollen. We'll continue with this treatment and see how they are at the end of the 5 day period (and see what Fritz comes back with). 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by xXInkedPhoenixX
rearranging...

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

I hope the popeye resolves quickly. Glad it’s not widespread.

[Odd Duck]

Unfortunately with that amount of protrusion, this looks like a traumatic popeye and is unlikely to resolve with medication.  I would still try, but realistically, it’s probably not going to improve much.  Sorry.

[johnzhe]

I wonder if all else fails, fish surgery is possible (similar to treating human eyeball luxation: just pop it back in with the correct method). I know various surgeries are common on larger fish (like goldfish wen trimming, and I think king of diy did an eye surgery on his arowana) but I have no idea about a fish as small as an oto. 

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

@Odd Duckif it doesn't heal would it then scar over or how would this resolve?

[Odd Duck]

On 12/6/2021 at 2:59 PM, Beardedbillygoat1975 said:

@Odd Duckif it doesn't heal would it then scar over or how would this resolve?

High risk that this will eventually get taken by another fish in the tank, but they can very often survive that.  I’ve seen lots of one eyed fish doing just fine.  It could also just stay this way, but puts this little guy at higher risk for issues like infections and disease.  This can be a chronic stress situation that makes the fish more susceptible to other problems.  Losing the eye would actually be better in the long run.  This eye is very unlikely to be visual at this point and very high risk for injuries which opens the door to infection.

There are very few vets that would attempt surgery like this on a large fish, even fewer that would try on such a tiny fish.  Anesthesia is an issue, the actual procedure would be incredibly difficult. You can’t just pull on the eye to elevate it and cut around it to get underneath for removal.  You would do too much damage to all the surrounding tissue.

A fellow fish “helping him out” would probably be the most likely to save him, ironically, and sadly.  Keep the water as pristine as possible.  He may still live quite a while this way.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Odd Duck I appreciate the honesty and I was prepared for that. Since they've been in the Oto tank if they go back they won't be bullied, just more a matter of what you said- infection prone and eyesight problems. I'm stubborn though, I'm determined to get them as back to normal as is possible for them. I might lose, but I don't give up.

[Odd Duck]

On 12/6/2021 at 6:05 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@Odd Duck I appreciate the honesty and I was prepared for that. Since they've been in the Oto tank if they go back they won't be bullied, just more a matter of what you said- infection prone and eyesight problems. I'm stubborn though, I'm determined to get them as back to normal as is possible for them. I might lose, but I don't give up.

I’ve read the thread but forgotten, have you tried Epsom salt soaks yet?  And Kanaplex?

Epsom salt soak mix is 1 tablespoon per gallon, then dip for 15 to 30 minutes (stop if any stress symptoms) once daily for up to 5 days in a row.  You don’t have to use the whole gallon for each soak and the extra can be saved for the whole duration of treatment.  Don’t reuse any solution, just save the extra since you’re treating a small fish, you only need to use a small amount at a time in a small container big enough to hold the fish without crowding.  Don’t dump the soak solution into your tank.  A little on the net to move the fish is fine.  I think some even use Epsom salts as a magnesium source when they’re testing and adding specific nutrients.

Use the Kanaplex as labeled.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Odd Duck no so far just Maracyn and Aquarium Salt. Today is the last day of that treatment. I've thought about the Epsom but not Kanaplex. Not sure what antibiotics will do at this point in the healing process since there is no longer any inflammation (well, redness anyway). Advise?

Edited December 7, 2021 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

Interestingly antibiotics can be anti-inflammatory as well as antibacterial. It's particularly known that cycline abx are very anti-inflammatory probably why you see them used in acne and rosacea.  I think some theorize that its knocking off the bacteria allows the body to down-regulate inflammatory pathways allowing feedback loops to turn off the hormones and cytokines responsible. Same thing may happen for fish, makes some sense. 

[Odd Duck]

On 12/7/2021 at 11:22 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@Odd Duck no so far just Maracyn and Aquarium Salt. Today is the last day of that treatment. I've thought about the Epsom but not Kanaplex. Not sure what antibiotics will do at this point in the healing process since there is no longer any inflammation (well, redness anyway). Advise?

As @Beardedbillygoat1975says, some antibiotics can have anti-inflammatory effects but there is still a chance of infection deep in the tissues under the eye.  Even if the Maracyn has cleared some infection it’s still worth at least trying with the Kanamycin (Kanaplex).

The Epsom salts are specifically aimed at removing swelling from the tissue.  That combination seems to be the most likely to help popeye even if it’s a long shot in this case.  It should carry fairly minimal risk for harm as long as it isn’t a huge ordeal to catch the little oto for the Epsom dips.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Odd Duck and @Beardedbillygoat1975 I appreciate the insight very much I started this treatment today. Thanks!

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS COCAMA: 2 Gallon QT

Popeye patient: We are on day 2 of Epsom salt soaks in conjunction with Kanaplex (only one dose so far as it is dosed every 48hours). Poor Tiger Oto is very patient with me taking them in and out of the tank though today he wasn't too happy when I caught them to put them back. Patient is very inactive and doesn't really seem to be eating much at least from what I can tell. Daily I baste up all the food and put new food for them. I have some hope they are since today after placing them back I spotted them on top of the food for a bit whether or not they ate is a mystery but at least I can say they know the food is there. I think it's good to continue treatment of meds though at this point so I appreciate the advice I've gotten from @Odd Duck. (Do you think I should do 2 rounds or give them a break after this? Or try another med?) The look is a bit paler but it's a little trick of the light since in the QT tank they look darker. I got a couple of pictures of them in the Salt soak and side by sides of the last couple of days: 

I also heard back from Fritz this last week after I had emailed them asking about the Maracyn and Maracyn Two boxes both saying they treat Popeye and told them I was treating a Popeye that was result of injury. This was their reply ( @Colu you may -or may not- be interested in what they say):

Edited December 10, 2021 by xXInkedPhoenixX
rearranging...

[Colu]

After you  finish the Frist full course of kanaplex I would just monitor if theirs no reddening or signs of fungas on the eye  I would just continue with the salt  treatment for now I think you will see more of a reduction in the swelling if you add a small amount of aquarium salt directly to his tank long side the Epsom salt baths

[Odd Duck]

Hard to tell but there may be the tiniest bit of improvement.  Daily on the Epsom soaks for 5 days and I would do 2 treatments at least on the Kanaplex.  I second the aquarium salt in the tank, like @Colu says.  Just 1 tablespoon per gallon is good, safe for pretty much everything (except some very sensitive plants) at that dose.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS COCAMA: The 2 Gallon QT: Popeye Patient

@Odd Duck and @Colu again thanks for the tech support here, it's appreciated. When I did the Maracyn I was treating with Aquarium salt as well which I think made the biggest difference in the swelling at that time (it was huge). When I switched to Kanaplex I did a big water change but there was likely still some salinity left. While Oto was in their 3rd Epsom soak today I tidied up the tank (of old food) and dosed the 2nd dose of Kanaplex and added in some Aquarium salt as suggested. Depending on results I think I might do a 2nd round as odd duck suggests. Once finished I may put them in my breeder box that hangs on to the tank and monitor them that way. Here's todays pic (not much change if any that's ok we're determined.) 

 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS VITTATUS: The Accidental Oto Tank

For a break from our Popeye patient we'll talk about baby Otos! They are now 1 month 16 days old, still not even as long as a penny. They remain in the larger of my floating breeders. They are cute little squirts. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Odd Duck]

@xXInkedPhoenixX As an absolutely LAST resort, if no treatment has helped, you could try ONCE to apply a little pressure directly on the eye to see if there’s any give.  This would be as long shot as it gets.  There would be high risk for further damage to the eye, but you might get crazy lucky and have it pop back into the socket.  It’s truly probably a less than 1% chance of resolving the issue, but if you reach the point of desperation, or the little oto seems excessively uncomfortable, it might be worth trying.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Odd Duck that's too rich for my blood, attempting that. Especially since they don't have eyelids I'd have a hard time with it. HOWEVER, I live very near a pretty famous veterinary teaching school and they do see fish. I might consult with them over it out of curiosity and see what they say. 

[Odd Duck]

On 12/11/2021 at 11:29 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@Odd Duck that's too rich for my blood, attempting that. Especially since they don't have eyelids I'd have a hard time with it. HOWEVER, I live very near a pretty famous veterinary teaching school and they do see fish. I might consult with them over it out of curiosity and see what they say. 

I’m not sure how much advice they’ll give you over the phone and they may not even give advice with photos available.  I have to limit the advice I give on line to very broad, general stuff, unless I have pretty good pics and baseline information.

Which vet school are you near?

Edited December 12, 2021 by Odd Duck

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Odd Duck Oh yes, I understand that too, I guess I'd have to ask them if they'd be willing to try. I'm willing to take them in- but here veterinary appointments are weirdly hard to come by and the emergency vets are booked solid. It's pretty crazy. I live pretty close to UC Davis. A friend of mine took her goldfish there who was swimming upside down years ago. A family friend graduated from Davis as a large animal Vet and is a cattle rancher.