I’m at a loss. Wife wants me to quit.

[TheDukeAnumber1]

Quote

STOP TRACKING YOUR SPENDING!   If we actually knew what we were spending on all this ....we would all be exactly like you are now.  We all have had issues with something not working right and it is frustrating.  I think of us as a family here.  Some of our spouses may not understand this hobby....some would freak if they knew the costs...some can be converted to the Dark side but all of us here get each other...support each other...care for each other. 

I mean no disrespect in any way but that is terrible advice and I think for obvious reasons.

@Josh

My 2 cents is I agree with the comments on trying not to stress on it, even in failure at least we learn something. Natural cycles are complicated and it can take a while to sort out what works for you and your water. Grats on the growing family, aquariums are great for kids.

[ARMYVET]

On 9/22/2021 at 11:07 AM, TheDukeAnumber1 said:

I think for obvious reasons.

I respect your view and there are no hard feelings but could you explain what your obvious reasons are to me?

[TheDukeAnumber1]

On 9/22/2021 at 12:22 PM, ARMYVET said:

I respect your view and there are no hard feelings but could you explain what your obvious reasons are to me?

Budgeting is an objectively good thing to do. Managing resources is better for both being effective with your dollars in the hobby and for financial health in general. If someone is distressed with the money aspect of a hobby the solution isn't to ignore counting the cost.

[Patrick_G]

@JoshI’m sorry you’re having so much trouble getting things to grow in your tank. In addition to the good advice above I have a few thoughts.  First, tall tanks like yours can be the most difficult tanks to grow plants in. The advice to add more substrate will help get the plants closer to the light.  Maybe 2” at the front and sloping to 5” at the back. You could also add some tall aquascaping wood and attach epiphyte plants and moss to it. You could plant Crypts on the bottom. They’ll thrive in the low light. @Mmiller2001’s advice to start with a large number of plants is totally right in my experience so get as many as the budget will allow. Also taken note of his advice on your Nitrate levels. I love Easy Green but in this case I’d provably use Seachem Flourish since it contains less nitrogen. 

[Alexa]

There are a lot of great suggestions here! 
 

If you implement changes to the tank and decide to give plants another go, I recommend buying ONE of several different types of plants. That way you can see which plants thrive and which ones die in your water, without having all your eggs in one basket so to speak.

I hope you don’t give up since figuring out the puzzle is so rewarding. Good luck 👍 

[Patrick_G]

On 9/22/2021 at 12:20 PM, Alexa said:

There are a lot of great suggestions here! 
 

If you implement changes to the tank and decide to give plants another go, I recommend buying ONE of several different types of plants. That way you can see which plants thrive and which ones die in your water, without having all your eggs in one basket so to speak.

I hope you don’t give up since figuring out the puzzle is so rewarding. Good luck 

Yup, a good idea! 

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

@Joshas a working Dad of 2 I totally understand where you’re at right now. I wish you and your wife love life and good health. As for the fish keeping - you’ve gotten great suggestions. I’d take the ones that you can afford, see as feasible and work with your budget and go for it. Working with your water not against your water is a key that will open doors in the hobby. I find my boys sleep better and have these kind of calm zen moments with their tanks. They notice things sometimes I don’t. It’s been a good journey for us. I hope you continue in the hobby. 

[Theresa W]

I didn't know about the daily cycle of plants' CO2  use and will modify my lighting schedule accordingly. Thanks for the info!

Also, I have a tall aquarium, albeit only 15 gallons, and plants that are doing well in there are pogostemon, rotala, a flamingo crypt, a couple of marimo moss balls, and a giant anubias. I added a dwarf aquarium lily last week, and it's doing well thus far. Since it's a betta habitat, I also have water spangles, a floating clump of water sprite, and duck weed. Try some duck weed. Your kid will be born covered with it. 🤣 Anyone here who's stuck with it knows what I mean.

Good luck with your plants and your family. I recently started babysitting a friend's son, who is a year and a half old, and he spends a large portion of his day standing on the couch watching the fish and "talking" to them. He's also crazy about the cats. Pets are good for kids, and fish teach them different lessons than cats do. Don't give up! 🌿

[Torrey]

On 9/21/2021 at 11:21 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

Could you clarify this?

If the photo period were to be broken up with a siesta in the middle, the plants would have access to more CO2 for photosynthesis, which will increase the amount of nitrates that the plants will utilize.

 

I have been rereading the information on the aquariumscience dot org site, regarding the assumed to toxicity of nitrates, and realized that we aquarists have a tendency to become purists, which then destroys the joy we first had with the hobby.

 

@Josh wrote that he has his lighting ramp up to full capacity by 2 pm, it turns off by 7 pm, and is back on at 8 am.

 

That's 11 hours of light exposure, but plants use up available CO2 in 4 to 5 hours.

 

That means the plants can only use the nitrates for 4 to 5 hours, and the remaining hours the algae gets to utilize the nitrates.

If the siesta is scheduled in, then CO2 will build up overnight and be exhausted by noon. Lights go off for 3 to 4 hours, allowing CO2 to build up again, then lights back on for 4 to 5 hours.

This will allow the plants to use almost double the nitrates, which will rapidly deplete the tank if balance is not found.

 

(Hope I explained better, long day)

On 9/21/2021 at 1:19 PM, Odd Duck said:

I think @Torrey may mean it would be even higher without the current photoperiod.  At least, that’s how I took it.  I ask @Torrey to please correct me if I’m wrong.

It would be lower with a siesta time, as siesta makes more CO2 available to plants allowing more photosynthesis to occur, using up more nitrates.

[Mmiller2001]

On 9/23/2021 at 1:14 AM, Torrey said:

If the photo period were to be broken up with a siesta in the middle, the plants would have access to more CO2 for photosynthesis, which will increase the amount of nitrates that the plants will utilize.

 

I have been rereading the information on the aquariumscience dot org site, regarding the assumed to toxicity of nitrates, and realized that we aquarists have a tendency to become purists, which then destroys the joy we first had with the hobby.

 

@Josh wrote that he has his lighting ramp up to full capacity by 2 pm, it turns off by 7 pm, and is back on at 8 am.

 

That's 11 hours of light exposure, but plants use up available CO2 in 4 to 5 hours.

 

That means the plants can only use the nitrates for 4 to 5 hours, and the remaining hours the algae gets to utilize the nitrates.

If the siesta is scheduled in, then CO2 will build up overnight and be exhausted by noon. Lights go off for 3 to 4 hours, allowing CO2 to build up again, then lights back on for 4 to 5 hours.

This will allow the plants to use almost double the nitrates, which will rapidly deplete the tank if balance is not found.

 

(Hope I explained better, long day)

It would be lower with a siesta time, as siesta makes more CO2 available to plants allowing more photosynthesis to occur, using up more nitrates.

We are talking about 2 to 4ppm CO2 in non injected aquariums. Siestas do nothing to improve growth in a non CO2 injected tank with such low numbers. I would argue better surface agitation is superior to a siesta.

80ppm nitrates is a problem, as it's an opportunity for algae, as well as an indicator of excess organics.

[Torrey]

On 9/23/2021 at 8:52 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

Siestas do nothing to improve growth in a non CO2 injected tank with such low numbers.

That is not the experience I have had, and not the experience Dr Diana Walstad has had.

I wish I had found the forum earlier, and I would have posted pictures of the growth in my 'control' tank without siesta, and my Walstad inspired tank with siesta.

 

Now all my tanks are enjoying a mid-day siesta, and I have seen / measured the increased growth. 

Hornwort being the most noticeable change, but also getting red stem plants that are **red** for the first time w/o CO2 system on a tank.

[Guppysnail]

On 9/23/2021 at 11:03 AM, Torrey said:

That is not the experience I have had, and not the experience Dr Diana Walstad has had.

I wish I had found the forum earlier, and I would have posted pictures of the growth in my 'control' tank without siesta, and my Walstad inspired tank with siesta.

 

Now all my tanks are enjoying a mid-day siesta, and I have seen / measured the increased growth. 

Hornwort being the most noticeable change, but also getting red stem plants that are **red** for the first time w/o CO2 system on a tank.

I started following your siesta and my no tech tanks are doing even better than before 😁

[Torrey]

I am a firm believer in research. 

 

Full disclosure: Dr Diana Walstad is friends with my brother-in-law, so I do step back to make sure that I am presenting evidence based information and not my personal preferences.

 

Of course, that might be my autism.

 

@Josh has a tank that is underperforming by his definition, and we are all nerms trying to support him.

@Marnol D @Hobbit (yes!!! You understood the connection between photosynthesis and reduced nitrates!), @ARMYVET, @Odd Duck, @Alexa, @Patrick_G, and @Theresa W have all been parts of discussions (or newly asked questions) about the role of siestas.

Here is a peer-reviewed article on the role of HCO3- in photosynthesis and aquatic plant respiration, followed by a link to the data behind the siesta recommendation that has lowered nitrate levels by increasing growth:

https://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/threads/lighting-siesta-co2.67271/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3659369/

I'm not sure how links work for Safari, they may need to be copied and pasted.

I drop these here to help you have success @Josh and I am more than willing to answer any other questions to help you and your wife to be able to enjoy your tank instead of resent your tank.

[Mmiller2001]

On 9/23/2021 at 9:03 AM, Torrey said:

That is not the experience I have had, and not the experience Dr Diana Walstad has had.

I wish I had found the forum earlier, and I would have posted pictures of the growth in my 'control' tank without siesta, and my Walstad inspired tank with siesta.

 

Now all my tanks are enjoying a mid-day siesta, and I have seen / measured the increased growth. 

Hornwort being the most noticeable change, but also getting red stem plants that are **red** for the first time w/o CO2 system on a tank.

I doubt you can prove that the siesta is the single reason a tank does better. I would imagine that the over all health of the tank is the reason, nutrient balance to available light. Again, a non CO2 injected tank has no more than 4ppm CO2. Regardless of methods used. The only factor that increases CO2 is injection. 

[Hobbit]

On 9/23/2021 at 11:40 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

The only factor that increases CO2 is injection. 

Hey now, you know better than to use the word “only.” We both had to sit through standardized test strategy classes in grade school! (Unless you’re older than I think you are 😅)

Regardless, if anyone wants to discuss siesta vs no siesta, we should do so in a different thread so we don’t derail this one.

[Mmiller2001]

On 9/23/2021 at 10:55 AM, Hobbit said:

Hey now, you know better than to use the word “only.” We both had to sit through standardized test strategy classes in grade school! (Unless you’re older than I think you are 😅)

Regardless, if anyone wants to discuss siesta vs no siesta, we should do so in a different thread so we don’t derail this one.

I assumed people knew co2 in aquariums is 2 to 4pm, the only way to increase that is through injection. My bad, I assumed.

[Streetwise]

I have used dual siestas in all my tanks for a couple of years now.

It works really well for me.

[Ken]

My plants do better using the siesta method, root Tabs and plain 'ol Easy Green. I have a 20# bottle of CO2 with a really nice regulator on my welding cart out in a shed that will not be getting anywhere near my aquariums. It's not necessary for nice planted tank. Take the advice about trying one each of the easy plants, something will like it at your house.

[Torrey]

On 9/23/2021 at 9:40 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

I doubt you can prove that the siesta is the single reason a tank does better. I would imagine that the over all health of the tank is the reason, nutrient balance to available light. Again, a non CO2 injected tank has no more than 4ppm CO2. Regardless of methods used. The only factor that increases CO2 is injection. 

I believe that the articles I posted do a pretty good job explaining that the CO2 levels increase over the course of the siesta to a maximum saturation point that is achieved within 5 hours of darkness, and then CO2 levels drop from their maximum point, to a minimum, within 5 hours of lights on.

Which, if one uses the siesta period, allows for twice as much growth (2 growth "spurts") and therefore would consume 2x the nitrates, which was the point of the siesta.

 

To help @Josh be successful with plants, to help him have fun, and to spread a little joy with a fellow nerm.

I don't need to prove it works, because someone else has already done the research. 

Or is there something else going on, and I am missing a social cue in communication?

[Josh]

I wanted to say that I have not forgotten about this thread and I still want to keep y’all informed what I have going on. I can tell you this. I’ve changed my lighting schedule completely. And I’ve already had success! Some of the plants have grown almost an inch and a half already! The hair algae did kinda boom a little too, but I’m assuming that’s because of the c02 increase. I know that some of my plants need to be removed from the wool still. And planted correctly. I just haven’t been able to get my hands on any gorilla glue. I’m getting my brother in laws 55 gallon now front tomorrow. I’m going do a complete new scape with that tank. And I’m really going to put heart into it. I wanted to say that with this 30 bow front I intend on changing it into a heavily planted snail shrimp and micro fish tank.. I plan on giving my angelfish to a buddy of mine. He has a couple beautiful planted 125s that these fish would be able to enjoy much more than even the 55 I’m getting tomorrow. Anyways I wanted to say thank you guys and save this thread if your interested in seeing how I do. I will say my lights are on for 5 hours at only 40 percent twice a day.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Josh

[Guppysnail]

I’m happy to hear you are finding some success. You can link a thread to your signature for ease of finding for you and others. @Streetwise helped me to link my journal to mine.  Let me preface this next statement with I’m not a light or plant guru or expert by any stretch of the imagination but I do have success with almost no algae and decent plants...if I use the blue lights at all I grow hair algae in 3 days. I have two lights I actually electrical taped over the blue because I cannot shut them off. And no hair algae. I don’t know what the correlation is but just wanted to share. Looking forward to following your journey.