Reverse Respiration

[Bev C]

@Guppysnail that is good info to know of the  Vals.   This is my 2nd time buying them . I try a plant twice  before giving up and moving on to the next plant. My 1st try with Vals they died  ,,, This order I got in yesterday they looked bad, nothing like the photo at shop ( not ACO )  it looked like they were melting or dying already.  Because of that, I  thought  it was worth trying the  Reverse Respiration if they were dying already.  

I have two more hours left on the soak, can not wait to see the plants 

So hopefully the   new plants  for the new tank will survive,  kill the pest hitchhikers.  I killed moss before I tried it  twice .  But trying it for the third time due to  I am trying to get  plants  for shrimp tank  so I got the Willow moss and guppy grass for the shrimp tank ... but I got the Riccia Fluitan for the main tank. After I saw yours and your tree I love the looks of the texture of the plant  hopefully it stays alive  I  have apiece of wood that I tried in the past with  java fern moss with no luck 

I can not wait to try the RR  on my  plants in my main tank ..  Hopefully I can find  the water,  looking for the Seltzer or Carbon water is like looking for gold at my location  . I even looked  into the Soda stream system  but it looks like it would be hard to handle with one hand with  my luck I would blow up the house with it💣  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i will 

[Guppysnail]

On 7/31/2022 at 9:58 AM, Bev C said:

my luck I would blow up the house with it💣  

I’m with you. I’ve spent enough on seltzer now to buy 3 streams. Trying new things I’m fearless But I’m a coward with gizmos. 🤣

[Bev C]

I finished the 1st  soak. The plants I already had that  I am moving to a new tank ...  Look so much better  no algae  a little greener too, I took all  the dead off them.

The new plants the Corkscrew  Vals I knew I was taking a chance with it with the soak, I only have  left the  main Val  stem  and roots  left no leaves, hopefully it will perk up and grow  back after the melt. 

And my  Riccia Fluitans  that was in a clump ...  It is a very pretty bright green, but it fell to pieces will it  grow back   into a clump if not I lost it ????  My Willow Moss and Guppy Grass are green &  beautiful, so is my Brazilian Pennywort

And with the new plants it killed the pest snails etc ,,, I wished I had this technic sooner for the snails dip. I usually use Alum and quarantine for 2-3 weeks, but a few made it past, & into my tank from my last order, and  now I check and remove manually pest snails daily.to keep them manageable.  I would not mind a few if they did not multiply. If I can find the water I will use this instead of the Alum dip  for removing snails, it works better

I am thinking of putting my sponge filters in the seltzer water  and soak it to see if it kills the snails like on the plants they like to hide there

when I clean my filter I  clean one at a time  I have a  canister filter and two sponges  filters 

It says  after the plant soak with Reverse Respiration  you can move the plant in the tank  after the soak and rinsing. I have mind  in my tote/tubs in water with prime I was afraid to add to the tank I do not want to add snails to the new tank   I always quarantine before after a snail dip   I was not sure if it kills all eggs completely ???   And if I should continue to quarantine with the Reverse Respiration ... 

 Like I said above, I will do this Reverse Respiration  for sure with any new plants from now on ... that  I get  to help with snails and to slow the algae growth  down 

I am looking forward to getting more water and working on my main tank plants, hopefully  get this algae under control

Hopefully I can take a photo or two  even if my  camera skills stinks when I do another soak 

 I know after I get all my plants soaked and cleaned I will not need as much water and I will  just do the soak as need when the algae start to appear again, or  I get new plant order 

Thank you to the team,  I appreciate the team that has worked so hard on this project 

Edited July 31, 2022 by Bev C

[Guppysnail]

On 7/31/2022 at 5:18 PM, Bev C said:

my  Riccia Fluitans  that was in a clump ...  It is a very pretty bright green, but it fell to pieces will it  grow back   into a clump

Yes. My Riccia clump came apart. It’s the vibration from the bubbles popping. My Riccia not only clumped again but grew long(not the Dr Seuss tree shrimp pic apart). It’s vibrant and growing like crazy for me

Lights are out so not the best picture 

Edited July 31, 2022 by Guppysnail

[Bev C]

Thanks @Guppysnail glad to know it will bounce back I was worried I would have to trash it ,,, I hope mine stays alive .. 

I got call from my sister-in-law she went to town, and she was at Kroger's in the water isle, and they had some water  I told her to get some Do not think she got enough for the  main tank  plants but I can start on it  

 and there were 2 different  sizes the regular size  33 oz - 1 Liter, but they had  a bigger size  a 2 Liter 67 oz size to I made a preview for you all 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by Bev C

[Guppysnail]

On 7/31/2022 at 6:23 PM, Bev C said:

Thanks @Guppysnail glad to know it will bounce back I was worried I would have to trash it ,,, I hope mine stays alive .. 

I got call from my sister-in-law she went to town, and she was at Kroger's in the water isle, and they had some water  I told her to get some Do not think she got enough for the  main tank  plants but I can start on it  

 and there were 2 different  sizes the regular size  33 oz - 1 Liter, but they had  a bigger size  a 2 Liter 67 oz size to I made a preview for you all 

 

 

It’s better to not do all of them at once I would think. A lot of beneficial bacteria reside on plants. I would think a section at a time would be best. I’m so glad you have given this a try. Your posts are always candid but kind so I love hearing all your results. 🤗

[Bev C]

@GuppysnailThank you I am glad I tried it to it was your recommendation of the thread I am so glad you recommended the thread  & I read it .. So thank you, I have been fighting algae for a year because of my awful water  & the green and diatoms algae  it did a number on my plants  and my nerves I had to  treat my water  keep a good schedule of cleaning and a clean up crew  to keep it manageable it has never gone away..and I am always fighting pest snails on new plants my last plant order even with the Alum dip and 2 week quarantine a few rams horn snuck  by ... now daily am I picking them out  I like my mystery and nitrite  snails not the pest ones

Edited August 1, 2022 by Bev C

[dasaltemelosguy]

On 7/31/2022 at 2:18 PM, Bev C said:

I am thinking of putting my sponge filters in the seltzer water  and soak it to see if it kills the snails like on the plants they like to hide there

when I clean my filter I  clean one at a time  I have a  canister filter and two sponges  filters 

Thank you to the team,  I appreciate the team that has worked so hard on this project 

Hi, thank you so much for trying RR and the kind words.

It probably has no bearing here as you have two sponges, but I thought I'd mention that RR will kill anything aerobic so the pests will expire but so will all the beneficial bacteria on the sponges.

I'm no expert on salt's effects on BB but perhaps soaking the cycled sponges in a salt solution would kill off the snails and spare the BB?

Others may know better than I if this would work or not. Of course, if the BB isn't important, then it'll definitely work!  Thanks again. 

[Bev C]

@dasaltemelosguy Thank you very much for the info  The  beneficial bacteria, I would not be to worry, I always have 2 sponges in my main  tank plus canister filter.  I rotate the cleaning, &  I have one sponge for extra filtration with the canister .. Then I have another  for backup if I need to start a new quarantine   tank  in a hurry or start a new tank,   and I just replace the extra sponge if I use it in the new tank full time. 

I do have a question please and if I sound dumb  or someone asked  this already, forgive me please

 The directions on The RR says to add plants after you soak & rinse 

Is it still  best to quarantine plants after the RR soak, does it kill all eggs ? Has there been any one report in the steady that the snail eggs survive  to hatch afterwards?, 

 My first soak on my new guppy grass killed a lot of snails and babies,  hope none survived 

Edited August 1, 2022 by Bev C

[Guppysnail]

On 8/1/2022 at 6:34 AM, Bev C said:

@dasaltemelosguy Thank you very much for the info  The  beneficial bacteria, I would not be to worry, I always have 2 sponges in my main  tank plus canister filter.  I rotate the cleaning, &  I have one sponge for extra filtration with the canister .. Then I have another  for backup if I need to start a new quarantine   tank  in a hurry or start a new tank,   and I just replace the extra sponge if I use it in the new tank full time. 

I do have a question please and if I sound dumb  or someone asked  this already, forgive me please

 The directions on The RR says to add plants after you soak & rinse 

Is it still  best to quarantine plants after the RR soak, does it kill all eggs ? Has there been any one report in the steady that the snail eggs survive  to hatch afterwards?, 

No such thing as dumb questions, none of us know something until we learn it.  This is a very good question.  None of the eggs THAT WE ENCOUNTERED survived verified by microscope as well as I tested literally hundreds of bladder snail egg sacs myself and put in a qt after. I also tested many unknown egg sacs that came on new plants and nothing survived. However we obviously have not been able to test every possible type of eggs. The likelihood is extremely minimal if any at all could survive. @dasaltemelosguy can give you a more technical explanation as to why. 
 

I had a piece of hornwort about 4 inches long in my bladder snail only tank that was heavily populated.  I fed to extreme excess intentionally and that hornwort was so covered in sacs it was one giant ball of jelly sacs. I then floated that hornwort in a container for a month after RR. I placed a spirulina nano banquet block in so any survivors would have a food and calcium source so I could actually see any babies that hatch. Not a single hatch out of probably thousands of individual eggs. 

[dasaltemelosguy]

On 8/1/2022 at 3:34 AM, Bev C said:

The directions on The RR says to add plants after you soak & rinse 

Is it still  best to quarantine plants after the RR soak, does it kill all eggs ? Has there been any one report in the steady that the snail eggs survive  to hatch afterwards?, 

 My first soak on my new guppy grass killed a lot of snails and babies,  hope none survived 

It's actually a great question and one we had to deal with midway through designing RR as we didn't know of RR's efficacy yet.

Our initial 'new plant disinfection technique' was actually three complete tests performed with three unrelated technologies as detailed and lengthy as the finished version. What was published here was only the 3rd complete experiment because we saw it was working and we had proofs of each concept whereas we had much theory in our other two experiments. 

Each test used a different technology as we had no idea which if any, would truly work or more likely, to what efficacy they might work. What we found was each technology we tested left survivors, live eggs or damaged plants to some extent. 

During the 6 months of the RR test proper, we saw no survivors or eggs hatch. To date, I do not believe we have seen any report of a surviving pests or egg hatching. And now there's mounting evidence of growth boost from a single RR session. 

RR has only been in testing since January so there's yet to be 1000s of possible combinations to be tried as more and more people adopt the technique. So, we may find exceptions or add modifications. 

However, you raised a valid point that became one of the foci of RR's benefits. Eggs.

In the full experiment there is a chapter called.

"A Tough Egg to Crack".

In it, we noticed worms, larva, snails etc. expired quickly, circa 30m.

Whereas snail eggs had lived days, but they're were slow, discolored, questionably viable embryos visible (under the microscope) after a 12-hour RR session. there was even 3rd party evidence cited those eggs treated in this fashion will be sterile. 

But we wanted a definite expiry for eggs or RR would be limited. We proceeded to apply repeat RR sessions upon which the 3rd session completely eliminated the eggs. 

However, we found a MUCH faster and more effective solution by quickly moving a 12-hour, dark treated plant in RR and being thrust into plain water, especially if aerated, killed ALL of the eggs in under 30m for two reasons. 

The first was pressure. Upon moving the plants from seltzer at 3X atmospheric pressure to water at 1X pressure quite literally exploded all of the eggs we found. Just 30 minutes in a plain water bath (aerated works best as it distributes the water, lowers the water pressure and helps blow out any remaining CO2).

What we found was either the snail eggs either instantly exploded and leaked out on to the microscope slide (center) or the embryo inside of the eggs dissolved into the solution (bottom) just as quickly. An untreated, live egg with visible living embryo is on top:

There is a secondary reason for the 2nd water bath after RR. RR will kill 100% of any aerobic bacteria present but it's not harmful to anaerobes.

I noticed after one particular RR session unlike the others, this particular one had a sulphureous odor. This is because whatever anaerobic bacteria may be present, they multiplied overnight in a pure CO2 environment. 

I would imagine those little methane makers would simply wash off with a rinse or literally drown once placed in a normal tank that is normally oxygenated, as that should kill off the anaerobes easily. 

However, despite this step being potentially redundant, adding the post-RR plants to a 30m aerated water bath raised the elimination % of RR to 100% across all tested pests, non-plant entities, eggs and algae. 

• The 30m aerated plain water bath completely eliminated this. It alone was enough to kill the anaerobic bacteria and RR killed the aerobes. 
• In essence, we saw no reason for QT post-RR. We've seen no survivors or hatchings since January. 
• It kills oxygen breathers, CO2 breathers, kills eggs via oxygen deprivation and shatters them with high pressure.
• It kills anaerobic bacteria and anaerobic bacteria if both dark/light cycles are performed. 

Lastly the acidic nature, without detailing the chemistry, is antagonistic to alga cells. We even found it 'guts' the algae cells of almost all essentials for survival but it leaves the chlorophyll unscathed so it may look healthy and green...for a while. In truth, too much content was dissolved by seltzer, and it has no metabolic activity left and will die off as the old chlorophyll eventually dissipates. 

We may be surprised as more and more people test RR with countless variables to find limitations or modifications present themselves but so far, we see no reason for QT after a properly executed RR session. 

Your findings added considerable value to the quality of our data and added further evidence of its efficacy. THANK YOU again for your posts. We greatly appreciate the help. 

[Bev C]

 Thank you @Guppysnail I appreciate the help and info and explaining to me like I told you in a message before all this is so scientific and science was not  my best subject  even though I love experimenting and trying  new things  ,,, 

@dasaltemelosguy  I appreciate the help and thank you for explaining . I read the Tough Egg To Crack  before, but I just reread it and your explanation..  I quarantine everything  fish, mystery snails, plants and sick/injury fish  I have my new plants in quarantine till I heard from you all ,,,  I guess I am being paranoid.

My 2nd to last order  of plants of pearl weed I did  the Alum dip and quarantine the plants 2-3 weeks and still got  pest snails from eggs  Now once a day I manually have to remove pest snails I would not mind a few if they did not multiply I think they are rams horn  or bladder by pictures they look  like rams horn 

 I am in my early 60s and getting forgettable,  I use Timers and a kitchen timer to remind me of everything 

1/2 hours before I removed the plants from the RR soak.. I use a plastic tote like Rubbermaid that holds 1-3 gallons to do my plants in  I filled with plain waiter and put 8 inch stick air stone in and had the water  aerated   1/2 hour before adding the plants left them in the plain water 45 minutes then I rinsed the plants twice to be sure they were rinsed well  then quarantine  them

I appreciated Both of you all being  so patient with me and explaining  things  and giving others and myself all this helpful help  and information to fight algae and pest snails etc ... 

[Guppysnail]

Into the drink

jungle Val and hygrophilia polysperma  along with complementary duckweed. My kids love eating duckweed 😁

I should mention last week my creeping Jenny got a bath and looks amazing 🤩 

[Bev C]

wow, that is a huge val 

[Guppysnail]

On 8/1/2022 at 7:24 PM, Bev C said:

wow, that is a huge val 

I know. I was shocked! I’ve never seen Val like that. This wonderful person gave that to me along with the least killifish because it was extra and she had plentiful LKfish. Kindness such as hers for absolutely no reasons is rare. People can be kind still 🤗

[RadMax8]

I’ve been reading this research and I must say it’s absolutely fascinating! I do have a few questions as it relates to the mechanics though. Please bear with me as I am a technical person, just not in this field.

How long does it take the seltzer to “go flat”? Gas always tries to equalize pressure, right? Has anyone done readings to see how quickly the CO2 leaves the system? Might be interesting to look into.

The pressure in the water, how did you measure that? I read where it’s 3x atmospheric pressure, but is that just in the bottle? I don’t really know what pressure from carbonation does in a liquid exposed to air. To this point, I wonder if the eggs which shattered didn’t do so from a pressure differential, rather the eggs had a high amount of CO2 from the seltzer water, and when placed in normal water the rapid diffusion caused catastrophic damage.  

Please let me know your thoughts on these topics, I am always interested to learn more!

Excellent work on all this. 

[nabokovfan87]

I got some seltzer......  I'll be sure to edit this post with details and what not here shortly.

I have 2 plants to run.  AN ENTIRE TANK, but I'll start with these 2 😂.

Anubias Nangi (been struggling for a while)


Susswassertang on mesh (new to me, already ruined by BBA)


Anubias Nana (from the Panda tank, not nearly as bad as the others)







This is the setup for me.  I ticked some holes in the top and then I covered the entire thing with a towel as well.  The entire room is dark also.

Edited August 2, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[nabokovfan87]

@dasaltemelosguy@Guppysnail@Odd Duck@OnlyGenusCaps

I have a mostly unused bottle of fresh seltzer and a piece of wood with a few anubias on it.  Has this been tested at all with hardscape and wood specifically?

Thoughts?

[Odd Duck]

On 8/1/2022 at 11:09 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

@dasaltemelosguy@Guppysnail@Odd Duck@OnlyGenusCaps

I have a mostly unused bottle of fresh seltzer and a piece of wood with a few anubias on it.  Has this been tested at all with hardscape and wood specifically?

Thoughts?

I don’t know if anybody has tested with wood, but it doesn’t get “spent” or used up like peroxide does.  It gradually dissipates with the carbonation driving itself out of the water.  I would expect it to work fine and be safe for any wood.  It could see it potentially missing some pests if they’re sufficiently hidden away by pockets in the wood.

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/1/2022 at 10:41 PM, Odd Duck said:

 It gradually dissipates with the carbonation driving itself out of the water.  I would expect it to work fine and be safe for any wood.  It could see it potentially missing some pests if they’re sufficiently hidden away by pockets in the wood.

I can absolutely try it if someone says "yep it won't pose a risk" but it's in my panda tank.  I can run it, then leave it out of the tank for a few days after just to be safe?  My only real concern was that it would leech into the wood and then slowly leech out if I add it to the tank. I'm guessing I would see a lot of discoloration on the wood as well if this was the case and there would be some sort of indication. 

Do you think it's worth a shot or is the wood going to absorb some and retain it?

Also of note. If this is worth it, then I have one piece of untreated wood in the same tank and will be able to track progress as well that way.

[Guppysnail]

@RadMax8 Thank you.  I know he knows the “go flat” rate but I’m not certain if it was tested or something he knows because he is a physicist.  The job it completes is as much through ph shifting as pressure. So the go flat rate is much slower than the egg death rate. Studies were done on the dreaded zebra mussels (links in original article). The ph of 2.5 from vinegar successfully eliminates the mussels. Seltzer is ph of 3. The vinegar however does damage plants where seltzer does not.   
 

@Odd Duck we to wondered about the air pockets. The cavitation from the seltzer bubbles popping works much like ultrasonic.  It breaks air pockets to reach the tiniest crevices. This was visibly seen when I put a crazy dense mat of Xmas moss in.  It massaged so deep it loosened the mat completely.  It went from being a moss brick to a pile of loose yarn. To assist I would swish the wood to not trap huge pockets of air though. 
 

@nabokovfan87welcome to the party!  I have done manzanita three pieces I had different moss on.  It will be fine. The most decomposed thin outer layer fell to a powder. Not enough was vibrated off to cause my moss to come unglued. I sort of pictured that action like dusting very dusty furniture.  I will be curious how it does with other wood. Unless it’s rotted almost completely as happens over the years with aquarium wood the worst that should happen is the need to reglue your plant. 
Some of your most heavily algae covered leaves will deteriorate.  Once they are that compromised they are either already dead or dying and are not afforded the vascular protection a healthy leaf has. Unhealthy Anubias leaves took a few week after cleaning for me to see this. Faster growers I seen it sooner.  It’s the “ph pruning” spoken of in the article. It’s very similar to pruning dead leaves with scissors.  The boost and growth we have witness after RR should help plants outcompete the algae if the imbalance in the tank has been corrected.  
Looking forward to seeing your results. You don’t need to edit your post. Just post a second after post so folks are alerted to see your results. 
 

also.. mostly unused?  I think how long it has been open is the determining factor on how well it will work. @dasaltemelosguy can speak on that technicality.  

Edited August 2, 2022 by Guppysnail

[Guppysnail]

@nabokovfan87 your concern of it leeching back out is not worry about. By the end in the 9 -12 hours most of the co2 has dissipated as @Odd Duck spoke of. To get the most penetration to any internal air pockets deeper in the wood you may want to get a fresh bottled. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 8/1/2022 at 5:01 PM, Guppysnail said:

Your husband called. He's trying to butter a piece of toast and can't seem to find a utensil?

[Guppysnail]

On 8/2/2022 at 8:21 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Your husband called. He's trying to butter a piece of toast and can't seem to find a utensil?

Living in our home is always an adventure 🤣

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/2/2022 at 2:55 AM, Guppysnail said:

also.. mostly unused?

I just opened it last night and have a second bottle unopened.

1.5L+2L