Starting moderately rare/uncommon fish breeding project/business

[AquaHobbyist123]

Hello,

I'm new to this particular forum.

Recently, I have been considering starting a fish breeding business that sells online and to fish stores.

Here is the list of fish(and inverts) I am considering breeding:

-Rainbow Darter(if anyone has information on how to breed them, that would help a lot!)

-Koi Tuxedo Guppy (I wanted to breed trout goodeids, but I can't find them anywhere)

-Celestial Pearl Danios

-Giant Bettas

-Blue Brazos Dwarf Crayfish

-Blue Dream Neocaridina Shrimp

-Bloody Mary Shrimp

-Painted Fire Shrimp

-Mystery Snails

-Fancy Ramshorns

-Malaysian Trumpet Snails

Let me know what you think!

[Zenzo]

I think that it is great that you are going to try this project. Keep in mind that selling to fish stores may be difficult unless you are able to meet/match wholesale pricing and also meet their quantity needs.

Good luck!

[SandBkeeper]

On 7/5/2022 at 12:45 PM, AquaHobbyist123 said:

-Fancy Ramshorns

What are fancy ramshorns? I've seen pink ones, blue ones, and some weird dark ones. Would those be considered fancy?

[Dancing Matt]

Have you watched Cory's breeding for profit series on you tube? That would be a good place to get some tips. Some things to consider are starting with something you know (are able to breed vs trying to start with a potentially difficult fish you have never kept) also something that you know will sell. I talked to one of my local stores and the owner said he doesn't do fish trades but would be willing to for discus because they always need discus (I'm assuming there is a good demand in my aria).

I think evaluating your objective is important. Do you want to make a profit at breeding and selling fish (going to likely have to make certain business decisions) or is it mostly for fun?

[Gwallace]

I think you will do fine as long as you keep a "hobby" mindset and not business.  It's hard to beat wholesale pricing.  You have to overcome it with a superior product and relationship building.  Good luck!

[gardenman]

The only edge a local breeder has over wholesalers is in the shipping cost. Fish raised overseas can cost pennies to raise while the same fish raised here can cost a lot more. It's the shipping costs where you can gain an edge or break even. Predatory Fins had a video up a while ago where it cost them eight dollars to buy a large fish from a supplier, but eight hundred dollars to ship it to them. The shipping costs made it an eight hundred-plus dollar fish. If you watch imported fish unboxings, you'll often see fish like guppies and bettas shipped in extremely small water volumes to reduce the shipping costs.

There is no Elon Musk who made his fortune raising tropical fish. Breaking even is a pretty good goal for a typical hobbyist. That can make your hobby a free hobby and there aren't a lot of those around.

I think there's an opportunity for commercial tropical fish breeding on a larger scale in some locations using smaller satellite stores to sell the fish. That would lower the shipping costs dramatically, and given gas, diesel, and jet fuel prices, lowering shipping costs is a good idea. The breeding facility would need to be large, in a low tax, low-cost area with very low operating costs. In the more northern states, you'd want it well insulated. Maybe have solar panels on the roof to provide electricity and heat the water. A rural location is probably the only affordable place to locate such a breeding facility. Containing costs would be a priority for such a facility. The satellite retail stores would be located in more populated areas in rented storefronts. You could buy supplies in large quantities and store them at the breeding facility and then move them and fish to the retail stores as needed. A series of satellite stores radiating from the central supply location in more populous areas would make sense.

I like the one large retail/breeding facility and then lots of smaller satellite stores operating off of it model a lot. You vastly reduce shipping costs and shipping live fish gets expensive when done in quantity. You can buy things in large quantities getting a lower cost per unit and even sell fish and supplies online from the breeding facility. I think regional breeding facilities makes sense for the hobby. Shipping costs and import fees account for a lot of the cost of fish we buy. Take those away and the right facility in the right place could do very well. Raising fish isn't especially labor intensive. The labor costs per fish could be in the pennies when done on a commercial scale. If you could keep the overhead, energy, and food costs low also, you could take over the market.

[AquaHobbyist123]

Not thinking about a massive business here, just enough to cover my hobby expenses and maybe a little extra, but that is about it for now.

[Brandon p]

Depending on how much you spend. I would go to The Lfs and develop good relationships before you start asking about selling fish to them. It was much harder to sell fish to LFS that you don’t have a prior relationships. and I always get lower prices. I would ask if the types of fish you are breeding are some they they will sell or try to sell. Just an example I have L-333 that some stores saw thier customers  spend that much and other that they can’t keep them on stock. I know you have a lot of info. As for your stock list in my area snails are worth much. All ramshorns are considered as a feeder. Mystery snails are not worth much but you can breed a lot pretty fast. Most LFS don’t want Malaysian Snails because they are consider a pest and the shells are so hard they aren’t great to feed puffers or they can get in the filter and move in the plants. That is in stores that don’t have separate filter for plants. It doesn’t mean one by you won’t. The others seem ok just check to make sure that they are legal in your area. The rules on crawfish have changed in lots of places. If the aren’t on the up and up state ag/ fish and game come they will hand over paper work and be asked where they got them and they make not protect you. Look at as fun. If it becomes work and not fun you might have to decide if they work for you.

 

GOOD LUCK

[AquaHobbyist123]

       I am acquaintances with the owners of my one lfs as I go there to shop quite frequently. You're right that crayfish regulations do change because many crayfish species are considered invasive in other states. Once again, just selling some casually, it is mostly a project for fun. Selling some to make a few bucks every so often is my plan.

Also, Mystery Snails are very cheap but they can be bred very easily and in large quantities. Personally, i do like Malaysian Trumpet Snails but have to keep on top of the population.

[Patrick_G]

@AquaHobbyist123, it looks like a good list to me!

If you were local to me I’d buy some of the fish/inverts on the list. In fact I do buy from a local hobbyist that has a similar list. He has a basic internet storefront and offers shipping or local pickup. His prices are less than those at an LFS but much higher than wholesale. 

[Brandon p]

On 7/6/2022 at 1:01 PM, AquaHobbyist123 said:

       I am acquaintances with the owners of my one lfs as I go there to shop quite frequently. You're right that crayfish regulations do change because many crayfish species are considered invasive in other states. Once again, just selling some casually, it is mostly a project for fun. Selling some to make a few bucks every so often is my plan.

Also, Mystery Snails are very cheap but they can be bred very easily and in large quantities. Personally, i do like Malaysian Trumpet Snails but have to keep on top of the population.

 

On 7/6/2022 at 1:01 PM, AquaHobbyist123 said:

       I am acquaintances with the owners of my one lfs as I go there to shop quite frequently. You're right that crayfish regulations do change because many crayfish species are considered invasive in other states. Once again, just selling some casually, it is mostly a project for fun. Selling some to make a few bucks every so often is my plan.

Also, Mystery Snails are very cheap but they can be bred very easily and in large quantities. Personally, i do like Malaysian Trumpet Snails but have to keep on top of the population.

Sounds like you are have the appropriate attitude. I think you are good. Is sort of funny I get more for one type of guppy than angelfish. Good luck and keep it fun.

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

I'd say you have a good range of offerings you are considering there and a clear goal. It may be an extensive amount of tanks to keep strains pure and get populations sustainable. My personal breeding successes on fish species have been single species per tank and at least 3 tanks per species. Breeding group, growout, growout for hold backs.

I'm not an expert on how selling to stores is done by any measure but in my opinion it boils down to building a relationship and supporting the business you are selling your stock to by filling whatever the local demand is for a better price or better quality than the competition. Seems like you are already on that path. 

I personally only keep the species I enjoy the challenge of keeping and possibly breeding, or the set it and forget it types that my puffers like. It is a lot of enjoyment/work to keep and successfully raise most species to sellable sizes. If my end pays for the cost of raising the species to that sellable size or the trade value equivalent I'm pumped, if it pays for more than that even better, if it pays for the cost of the whole operation I would feel like I hit the fishroom lottery. 

 

[tolstoy21]

@AquaHobbyist123 Good luck with this! 

I started down this same path a few years ago. I haven't yet tried to build any relationships with LFS's near me because I don't have the free time required to drive about the state talking to store owners. I've only been shipping fish, which, despite its challenges, I've been enjoying. 

Anyway, it's certainly 100% doable if all you're looking to do is cover the costs of the hobby. However, I'd recommend spending some time tracking your income and expenses so you have insight into how you're actually performing . . . if you're breaking even, making a little pocket change, or losing money.

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

I was keeping my lfs in blue dream shrimp, blue Hawaiian guppies and dwarf platies up until recently. It funded my hobby for the better part of the last year paying for tanks, heaters, frozen food and meds. My current setups for my ancistrus are not ideal so although I have some good colonies going I will need to wait for my next fish room to breed them out fully but the could longfin calico groups I brought in did very well $$$ wise. 

I think you have to make sure you love the fish you are breeding otherwise it gets tedious. I have had some guppy species that were difficult to manage due to their eating the fry and it was becoming a real hassle trying to get the females out before the males and other females would eat the fry. It was not working for my schedule so I gave up on those groups. I am a dad, busy career, but want my hobby so I colony breed species so I don't have to do what I think is the right way if it is for profit which is what @mountaintoppufferkeeperis dong with the 3 tanks for 1 species.

I always keep backup colonies around the house and fishroom as well. I had an episode around July 4th where 1 of the 2 circuits that run my fish room blew while we were camping. Half the room had air and the other half did not. I lost a large part of my breeding stock of BH guppies but I have backup breeding pairs and singles around the house that are thriving so I can rebuild those as well as 2 groups of the blue dreams. But be prepared for something like that to happen. 

Another person on the forum who is doing a lot with their hobby is @WhitecloudDynastyhe is very focused on white cloud varieties and rainbow shiners. @Fish Folkhas a more eclectic selection as he and his sons do the breeder program at their club in addition to some sales for profit. I will let them decide if they want to discuss their setups and systems. 

 

[Fish Folk]

Everyone has given excellent input here. This is a wisdom-filled thread!

(I may only be adding foolishness now)

If you have a multi-year relationship built with your LFS, so that they're as much aquarist-friends, not just a local business, you can eventually learn what they need. But those needs may not be anything you can really help with.

One species that most stores sell regularly are Ancistrus. If you can start some nice long-finned varieties going, you're likely to find homes for fry. But you might not enjoy breeding them. That's the rub.

If you breed what you enjoy, you'll find that stores might occasionally buy _some_ but that you'll need to find buyers online. Aquabid, Get Gills, and now this CARE Forum are all places where you can learn to sell. What you might "make" in terms of profit, however, you'll inevitably zero out in terms of time. It takes me a painfully long amount of time to properly pack a box. I could make twice my profits working that hour for minimum wage.

Another difficulty is related to breeding and raising. Most stores will buy Neon Tetras or Cardinal Tetras all day long from a local breeder. But they're very challenging to spawn and raise in a home-setup. Other fish just take a long time to grow out to salable size. I love German Blue Rams, and could breed them until the sky falls. But they take a lot of work, a lot of care, and patience to grow out. By the time I sell them, I invariably have more in them than I'm ever getting for them.

Every three months or so, I take fish to my LFS and walk out with $100+. That feels nice. But I'll have probably put twice that much into raising them in that time. Between my water bill . . . food . . . electricity . . . equipment . . . plus time, time, time. In the end, it is just a small way to let the hobby produce something nice FOR OTHERS.

And here, I've learned, is where I find my greatest satisfaction: much of what my LFS gets in doesn't do well for their customers. But by comparison, my small stock of fish does very well for them and their customers. Ditto with fish I ship. Not always perfect, but largely positive feedback. This is what satisfies me. I'm totally in love with my day-job. This is just a lovely hobby. But the opportunity to excite and encourage other aquarists by getting good fish and plants into their possession? -- THAT'S WHAT SATISFIES ME.

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Fish Folk

[Brandon p]

I forgot to mention that if you are able to raise rare plecos you can get a good price for your fish. I have only done two kinds the L-333 king tiger both white and yellow and the L134 and Leopard Frog Pleco. I want to move into zebra pleco L46. You can bring in bank but only when you look at the cash when you first walk out. When you relize how long it takes to learn and mature this fish. I love angels and pleco so  it’s fun. 

[gardenman]

On 7/19/2022 at 6:10 PM, Brandon p said:

I forgot to mention that if you are able to raise rare plecos you can get a good price for your fish. I have only done two kinds the L-333 king tiger both white and yellow and the L134 and Leopard Frog Pleco. I want to move into zebra pleco L46. You can bring in bank but only when you look at the cash when you first walk out. When you relize how long it takes to learn and mature this fish. I love angels and pleco so  it’s fun. 

And you can't count on rare plecos staying rare. A fish farm someplace might find the magic formula to start churning them out in big numbers and your whole investment can be for naught. Celestial Pearl Danios were once a very rare fish, only reaching the hobby in 2006. Then they started captive breeding in 2008 and now they're anything but rare. It's pretty easy to spend a few hundred dollars on some rare plecos today and by this time next year those same plecos could be selling for $5 each. You just don't know which fish farms are on the cusp of a major breeding breakthrough and could flood the market with a previously rare fish. With the price of zebra plecos, it's safe to assume most major fish farms are trying to breed them in quantity. If one or more succeeds, the price will drop like a rock. It's pretty easy to invest a thousand dollars or more to try and establish a breeding colony of zebra plecos, but it could be a very bad investment if they suddenly flood the market.

Most hobby breeders of zebra plecos more or less let the fish do their thing. A professional fish farm might spur things along with hormones, egg and milt stripping and artificial incubation. (Techniques used by many/most Japanese koi farms and also some Asian Arowana farms.) Those types of techniques applied to zebra plecos could, potentially anyway, result in a massive influx of them at much lower prices.  If you can spur female egg production hormonally, then strip the eggs and milt, and put the now fertile eggs into a tumbler, and repeat the cycle multiple times a year, you could churn them out in pretty big numbers at a relatively low price.

[WhitecloudDynasty]

My lfs can get those whenever they want, with that being said you'll have to either be cheaper or higher quality. You can't really show that you have higher quality to an online customer unless they bought from you before and was happy with their transaction. 

I recommend you going slow picking what you enjoy the most, breed for quality and health. You wont make alot of money, breeding fish takes more than it give. Buying fish from wholesaler then flipping them is a different story. Breeding fish for profit time and space will be your biggest problem.

I never considered myself as a business. I have always been a backyard breeder, doing what I enjoy and have passion for. All the friends and customers that came by over the years just happen to share the same interests.

[Brandon p]

On 7/20/2022 at 9:27 AM, gardenman said:

And you can't count on rare plecos staying rare. A fish farm someplace might find the magic formula to start churning them out in big numbers and your whole investment can be for naught. Celestial Pearl Danios were once a very rare fish, only reaching the hobby in 2006. Then they started captive breeding in 2008 and now they're anything but rare. It's pretty easy to spend a few hundred dollars on some rare plecos today and by this time next year those same plecos could be selling for $5 each. You just don't know which fish farms are on the cusp of a major breeding breakthrough and could flood the market with a previously rare fish. With the price of zebra plecos, it's safe to assume most major fish farms are trying to breed them in quantity. If one or more succeeds, the price will drop like a rock. It's pretty easy to invest a thousand dollars or more to try and establish a breeding colony of zebra plecos, but it could be a very bad investment if they suddenly flood the market.

Most hobby breeders of zebra plecos more or less let the fish do their thing. A professional fish farm might spur things along with hormones, egg and milt stripping and artificial incubation. (Techniques used by many/most Japanese koi farms and also some Asian Arowana farms.) Those types of techniques applied to zebra plecos could, potentially anyway, result in a massive influx of them at much lower prices.  If you can spur female egg production hormonally, then strip the eggs and milt, and put the now fertile eggs into a tumbler, and repeat the cycle multiple times a year, you could churn them out in pretty big numbers at a relatively low price.

I don think so just because the number of eggs are some much smaller on most. But farm can raise 100’s of pairs at a time or more. Most hobbyist can’t do that. I’m not say it impossible but those fish breed so much differently and a few hundred dollar for koi in places is not possible. Koi can be some the most expensive fish in the world along with Arowana. Those fish nautural lend themselves for that type of Manipulation. The market for rare plecos is small compared to those and less cultural significance. Those also have hundreds maybe thousands for years or Cultural significance in some Asian country’s.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Brandon p

[WhitecloudDynasty]

On 7/20/2022 at 5:36 PM, Brandon p said:

I don think so just because the number of eggs are some much smaller on most. But farm can raise 100’s of pairs at a time or more. Most hobbyist can’t do that. I’m not say it impossible but those fish breed so much differently and a few hundred dollar for koi in places is not possible. Koi can be some the most expensive fish in the world along with Arowana. Those fish nautural lend themselves for that type of Manipulation. The market for rare plecos is small compared to those and less cultural significance. Those also have hundreds maybe thousands for years or Cultural significance in some Asian country’s.

Right, you won't be able to breed enough to flip, plus quality fish are older fish. Everyone love to see larger size fully color fish over young fish.

[Vince C]

On 7/19/2022 at 2:02 PM, Fish Folk said:

Everyone has given excellent input here. This is a wisdom-filled thread!

(I may only be adding foolishness now)

If you have a multi-year relationship built with your LFS, so that they're as much aquarist-friends, not just a local business, you can eventually learn what they need. But those needs may not be anything you can really help with.

One species that most stores sell regularly are Ancistrus. If you can start some nice long-finned varieties going, you're likely to find homes for fry. But you might not enjoy breeding them. That's the rub.

If you breed what you enjoy, you'll find that stores might occasionally buy _some_ but that you'll need to find buyers online. Aquabid, Get Gills, and now this CARE Forum are all places where you can learn to sell. What you might "make" in terms of profit, however, you'll inevitably zero out in terms of time. It takes me a painfully long amount of time to properly pack a box. I could make twice my profits working that hour for minimum wage.

Another difficulty is related to breeding and raising. Most stores will buy Neon Tetras or Cardinal Tetras all day long from a local breeder. But they're very challenging to spawn and raise in a home-setup. Other fish just take a long time to grow out to salable size. I love German Blue Rams, and could breed them until the sky falls. But they take a lot of work, a lot of care, and patience to grow out. By the time I sell them, I invariably have more in them than I'm ever getting for them.

Every three months or so, I take fish to my LFS and walk out with $100+. That feels nice. But I'll have probably put twice that much into raising them in that time. Between my water bill . . . food . . . electricity . . . equipment . . . plus time, time, time. In the end, it is just a small way to let the hobby produce something nice FOR OTHERS.

And here, I've learned, is where I find my greatest satisfaction: much of what my LFS gets in doesn't do well for their customers. But by comparison, my small stock of fish does very well for them and their customers. Ditto with fish I ship. Not always perfect, but largely positive feedback. This is what satisfies me. I'm totally in love with my day-job. This is just a lovely hobby. But the opportunity to excite and encourage other aquarists by getting good fish and plants into their possession? -- THAT'S WHAT SATISFIES ME.

 

This is great advice - and that is how I feel also. It's not something that will make me rich, but if there is a way sometimes to cover costs in a hobby I enjoy spending my time on either way - might as well. Just gotta not get the hopes too high sometimes.

[BuzzDaddy21]

On 7/5/2022 at 12:45 PM, AquaHobbyist123 said:

Let me know what you think!

A neat idea but I think I would start with several types of shrimp, you start with 4 or so and before you know it you got a hundred or more. IMO a lot easier to raise than fish. Good luck to whatever you decide to do.

[AquaHobbyist123]

UPDATED PRODUCT IDEA LIST:

Purple Moscow/Blue Moscow Guppy

Green Moscow Guppy

Blue Rim Betta

Koi Galaxy Betta

Hellboy Betta

Bloody Mary Shrimp

Blue Dream Shrimp

Orange Pumpkin Shrimp

Yellow Neocaridina

Gold Mystery Snail

Blue Mystery Snail

Feeder Ramshorn Snails

MTS

 

   The smaller list allows me to focus my attention more on individual species rather than having to start out with 5-6 species.

 

[AquaHobbyist123]

Aside from occasionally on auctions, everywhere I look purple moscow guppies are always out of stock. They tend to also be rather pricey. I believe I will focus on breeding these fish as well as a few bettas.

[Vince C]

On 7/24/2022 at 7:35 AM, AquaHobbyist123 said:

UPDATED PRODUCT IDEA LIST:

Purple Moscow/Blue Moscow Guppy

Green Moscow Guppy

Blue Rim Betta

Koi Galaxy Betta

Hellboy Betta

Bloody Mary Shrimp

Blue Dream Shrimp

Orange Pumpkin Shrimp

Yellow Neocaridina

Gold Mystery Snail

Blue Mystery Snail

Feeder Ramshorn Snails

MTS

 

   The smaller list allows me to focus my attention more on individual species rather than having to start out with 5-6 species.

 

I like the idea of a shorter list - where you can focus and become successful - and then always expand. It will also provide opportunities to learn from some guaranteed mistakes having more types to deal with. Best of luck - the more local breeders we have in the hobby the better!