Reverse Respiration

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 5/14/2023 at 6:09 PM, Guppysnail said:

We know that to not be true based on mystery snails

And nerites apparently. Although it’s not too obvious in nerites.

[Galabar]

[I didn't read all 24 pages, but did read the article and the responses on the first couple of pages. 🙂 ]

Great article.  I couldn't find it in the original article: did the 30 minute post rinse with aeration show to be necessary?  Where there experiments with and without it?

Also, what is the best that we can do with CO2 injection while maintaining no surface agitation in a small aquarium (with no livestock)?  Would it be enough to reach the levels needed for this approach to work?

I'm just wondering what can be stripped away and still have a working solution... 🙂

 

[Guppysnail]

On 5/14/2023 at 8:30 PM, Galabar said:

[I didn't read all 24 pages, but did read the article and the responses on the first couple of pages. 🙂 ]

Great article.  I couldn't find it in the original article: did the 30 minute post rinse with aeration show to be necessary?  Where there experiments with and without it?

Also, what is the best that we can do with CO2 injection while maintaining no surface agitation in a small aquarium (with no livestock)?  Would it be enough to reach the levels needed for this approach to work?

I'm just wondering what can be stripped away and still have a working solution... 🙂

 

Post rinse not necessary. I do not do it. However in cases where roots hold onto anerobic bacteria it can blossom. Some bacteria when they die release a toxin. Might not be harmful but we did not explore that. 
If you read through all 24 pages you will see many things not in the article have already been covered and many more first hand accounts and explanations of other things not in the original article. Folks on this forum helped do a lot of field testing to give us a more complete picture. If you read all of them it will help you have a more complete picture as well. 
The Co2 injection with no surface agitation and sealed in Saran Wrap could not achieve the results. All the whys were also covered in a post just after. 

[Galabar]

Thanks for the response! 🙂

 

[Galabar]

I was also wondering about the loose lid advice.  I understand (I think) that you want to have the 3X pressure of the liquid match the 3X pressure in the plant tissue (and the seltzer falls quickly from 17x to 3x).

However, did you try a tight fitting lid (where the pressure would be higher in the seltzer)?  I notice a few pictures where folks used plastic wrap which might have kept the pressure a little higher.

Would that higher pressure (close to 17x) harm the plants and has anyone tried it?

[Odd Duck]

I have a very small sample size of susswassertang, a Fissidens moss (might have been nobilis, I’ve lost track of the species on this one), duckweed, and Wolffia that I treated in a tightly closed container that I treated several times trying to kill the Wolffia and the duckweed.  I even treated a couple times with very strong seltzer (I use a SodaStream machine and I can adjust the amount of carbonation).  I treated several times over the course of about a week with all of it in the dark the entire time except for opening it, draining it, and repeating the seltzer.  Everything survived.

It did not make one speck of difference as far as killing the duckweed or Wolffia but it did float all of it loose from the moss and Suss so I could rinse it away.  I was trying to figure out how I could get duckweed and Wolffia out of my mosses and Suss.  I know now that it can be done, but it will be a time consuming project to sort out and treat all my mosses from the tank that caught Wolffia (and yes, I swear that darn stuff is like a disease!).

I would STRONGLY advise AGAINST doing this to every plant as many will NOT survive treatment for this long.  Vallisneria appears to be one that is more sensitive (I usually only treat it for a few hours), and it sounds like hornwort might be a bit sensitive also.  Most plants shouldn’t need more than a few hours treatment if you’re only aiming to treat snails, hydra, planaria, or the like.

Algae pests are more stubborn and should get the full 12 hour treatment.  Black beard algae may need longer treatments (up to 18 hours) or a couple of treatments in a row.

[Galabar]

Thanks!

On 5/14/2023 at 10:34 PM, Odd Duck said:

I have a very small sample size of susswassertang, a Fissidens moss (might have been nobilis, I’ve lost track of the species on this one), duckweed, and Wolffia that I treated in a tightly closed container that I treated several times trying to kill the Wolffia and the duckweed.  I even treated a couple times with very strong seltzer (I use a SodaStream machine and I can adjust the amount of carbonation).  I treated several times over the course of about a week with all of it in the dark the entire time except for opening it, draining it, and repeating the seltzer.  Everything survived.

...

Interesting.  So, "full strength" seltzer might be Ok...

----------------------

I was thinking a bit about this.  I'm wondering if a pressure pot (like those used for resin casting) might be of use here:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FZ010PY

For a larger operation, the initial cost might be worth it.  Being able to dial in an exact CO2 pressure and being able to fill from a large CO2 cylinder would allow more plants to be processed and very cheaply (the large CO2 cylinder would last a very long time).

Of course, the pressure pot would be completely dark.  Again, for larger operations, this might be quite useful.  They could have several and would be able to fill them and charge them in minutes.

You'd want to be careful, as the above pot has a maximum pressure of 80 psi (it has a safety pressure release).  However, with a dual stage regulator on the CO2 cylinder with the second valve set to 3 - 5 psi, you'd basically just connect the hose, allow the pressure pot to get to 3 - 5 psi, discount, and Bob's your uncle. 🙂

Edited May 15, 2023 by Galabar

[Guppysnail]

On 5/15/2023 at 12:12 AM, Galabar said:

Would that higher pressure (close to 17x) harm the plants and has anyone tried it?

Yes this has also been tested by several members and discussed throughout the thread. 
Moss does not seem to mind a lid. Most leafed plants are crushed by the excess pressure with a tight fitting lid. 
We have not yet encountered any pests that can survive RR and only the marimo family seems to need a dual treatment or the aid of alkaline shifting. So adding any extra steps would be making something incredibly easy,  hard and complicated unnecessarily. 

[Torrey]

I have not found any combination of pressure, pH, length of time, sealed container, etc to kill any of the lemna family (Wolffia, duckweed, etc). RR does clean the weird taste from duckweed and prep it to eat, overnight.☺️ Much better than soaking in frequent water changes for a week. Tastes better in the stir fry, and it's a brighter green, after RR.

Used RR to eliminate some cyanobacteria on plants, only took an overnight soak. 2 months later, and minimal tank care on my part, and the cyanobacteria has not come back.

Also used to remove the hair algae growing in my moss, and again, 2 months later it hasn't come back. Shrimp enjoy devouring the treated hair algae.

I do have some new information to add:

Using RR on floating plants, by sealing the plant in a bag of seltzer water (with air sucked out & bag sealed), in the dark, for 24 hours is effective at elimination of planaria, aphids, snails, and algae.

 

There is an odd side effect on water hyacinth, however, that has not resolved after a month.

The bladder/leaves get larger and separate, and root growth is ramped up.

I need to find the original picture from a month ago, these 2 plants were almost identical.

I treated the one on the right, the one on the left is untreated.

Both plants had 7 bladder leaves a month ago, and roots were short.

Treatment made the bladders larger, and separated the bladders (due to what appeared to be internal swelling from the RR treatment).

A month later, the plant on the left (untreated) is nowhere near as large as the plant on the right and there is a large discrepancy in root growth as well.

Both plants now have 9 bladder leaves, with the plant on the left being the typical compact growth of this dwarf variety. The one on the right looks like the dwarf gene 🧬 was somehow turned off with the RR (not actually possible).

 

I have used the sealed bag approach (place plant roots in seltzer water & remove all air from the bag) on several different terrestrial and riparian plants (Lobelia cardinalis, multiple mosses, pothos, and "Bear's Paws" succulents) to eliminate fungus gnats, white flies, aphids, and spider mites.

All plants survived, and everything but the succulents thrived. Cactus and succulents didn't like the bag touching the leaves.

All pests did die☺️

I am going to test out a modified RR for succulents, that doesn't require sucking out all the air, and instead displacement of oxygenated air with CO2.... Eventually.😅

[Guppysnail]

On 5/15/2023 at 1:36 PM, Torrey said:

Using RR on floating plants, by sealing the plant in a bag of seltzer water (with air sucked out & bag sealed), in the dark, for 24 hours is effective at elimination of planaria, aphids, snails, and algae.

This is genius. I’ve tried several ways but even a media bag weighted down bits float up or air pockets get stuck where critters can hide. 
 

Shopping list : ziploc freezer bags..2 boxes. 

On 5/15/2023 at 1:36 PM, Torrey said:

There is an odd side effect on water hyacinth, however, that has not resolved after a month.

I almost bought water hyacinth but shyed away. After I treated my water lettuce and dwarf water lettuce the roots all remained healthy but detached from the plant. Some roots that did not get consumed by my opportunistic kiddos grew new plants and most plants that lost roots started reproducing at an alarming rate after a month and a half. After treatment my dwarf water lettuce was not so dwarf anymore either. 
They have again achieved equilibrium though. The new plants being produced are again the dwarf variety. 

 

 

[Guppysnail]

@Torrey not side by side but the big one is treated and her babies that are full size beside her. I’ve collected babies from her babies already. 
 

second photo is the normal size ones that are now growing. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 5/14/2023 at 6:04 AM, Guppysnail said:

start stirring your substrate

Last water change I stirred the top layer, zero signs of MTS.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Trailblazur]

On 5/15/2023 at 1:36 PM, Torrey said:

I have not found any combination of pressure, pH, length of time, sealed container, etc to kill any of the lemna family (Wolffia, duckweed, etc). RR does clean the weird taste from duckweed and prep it to eat, overnight.☺️ Much better than soaking in frequent water changes for a week. Tastes better in the stir fry, and it's a brighter green, after RR.

Used RR to eliminate some cyanobacteria on plants, only took an overnight soak. 2 months later, and minimal tank care on my part, and the cyanobacteria has not come back.

Also used to remove the hair algae growing in my moss, and again, 2 months later it hasn't come back. Shrimp enjoy devouring the treated hair algae.

I do have some new information to add:

Using RR on floating plants, by sealing the plant in a bag of seltzer water (with air sucked out & bag sealed), in the dark, for 24 hours is effective at elimination of planaria, aphids, snails, and algae.

 

There is an odd side effect on water hyacinth, however, that has not resolved after a month.

The bladder/leaves get larger and separate, and root growth is ramped up.

I need to find the original picture from a month ago, these 2 plants were almost identical.

I treated the one on the right, the one on the left is untreated.

Both plants had 7 bladder leaves a month ago, and roots were short.

Treatment made the bladders larger, and separated the bladders (due to what appeared to be internal swelling from the RR treatment).

A month later, the plant on the left (untreated) is nowhere near as large as the plant on the right and there is a large discrepancy in root growth as well.

Both plants now have 9 bladder leaves, with the plant on the left being the typical compact growth of this dwarf variety. The one on the right looks like the dwarf gene 🧬 was somehow turned off with the RR (not actually possible).

 

I have used the sealed bag approach (place plant roots in seltzer water & remove all air from the bag) on several different terrestrial and riparian plants (Lobelia cardinalis, multiple mosses, pothos, and "Bear's Paws" succulents) to eliminate fungus gnats, white flies, aphids, and spider mites.

All plants survived, and everything but the succulents thrived. Cactus and succulents didn't like the bag touching the leaves.

All pests did die☺️

I am going to test out a modified RR for succulents, that doesn't require sucking out all the air, and instead displacement of oxygenated air with CO2.... Eventually.😅

How do you suck out all the air 🤔

[Cinnebuns]

On 5/14/2023 at 5:09 PM, Guppysnail said:

I had to look that up since I never kept ramshorn. Thought you would get a chuckle from the all knowing internet. 
 

Says LIKE ALL air breathing water snails no operculum. We know that to not be true based on mystery snails. But looking further it seems they do not. 

I know this was awhile ago but I'm reading up and can confirm after the hundreds and thousands of ramshorns I have had, they do not lol. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I RR this plant/wood for 12 hrs Monday night with Great Value (Walmart) seltzer water. This is Tuesday upon its return to the tank. Note the fuzzy algae. It was very rooted into the leaves and could not be pulled off by me. The shrimp have not been able to remove this either, up to this point.

This is Saturday. 

 

The fuzz has been reduced. 
 

[Guppysnail]

@Chick-In-Of-TheSeaYes once the leaf has the algae roots in you cannot get it off only kill the algae. 
I just snip those off after treatment. The pruning usually encourages new leaf growth. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 7/8/2023 at 8:04 AM, Guppysnail said:

@Chick-In-Of-TheSeaYes once the leaf has the algae roots in you cannot get it off only kill the algae. 
I just snip those off after treatment. The pruning usually encourages new leaf growth. 

Looks like no snipping required. The shrimps were able to get it off now because I guess the roots died.

[HelplessNewbie]

Hi! I used the search feature but didn't find mention of the effects of RR on leeches in this topic. Can someone comment in this, please?

Also, which is better, seltzer water or club soda?

[Odd Duck]

It will kill them.  Since they are most likely to come in with plants or live foods like blackworms, you should treat plants with RR and seltzer water is best.  Club soda doesn’t have the lower pH of seltzer that is part of how it works.  Either will work if you can’t find seltzer.

For blackworms, they should always get cleaned and closely inspected before feeding.  They can bring in planaria, also, and RR would kill the blackworms so can’t be done for this issue.  The blackworms can be poured into shallow trays of cool, dechlorinated water for close inspection.  Some place some PVC tubes in the trays since they seem to attract the planaria and these can be removed a couple times a day and the planaria rinsed way in very hot water to kill them.  Visual inspection is the best for leaches.  They move around the container far more than the blackworms and move very differently than blackworms.

[dasaltemelosguy]

On 7/22/2023 at 7:04 AM, HelplessNewbie said:

Hi! I used the search feature but didn't find mention of the effects of RR on leeches in this topic. Can someone comment in this, please?

Also, which is better, seltzer water or club soda?

Hi @HelplessNewbie, @Odd Duck is correct. RR will extinguish leeches. During the testing of various non-chemical plant cleaning methods, we tested cavitation and electrolysis as well as RR. We also tested this on a wide variety of pests and indeed, leeches were amongst the most difficult to eliminate. We found most snails and other pests were expired in just 30 minutes whereas leeches required the full 12 hours. Here is a video of leeches in cavitation vs RR.

Reverse Respiration vs Cavitation: Leeches in CO2 Solution-Left, Leeches Sonicated-Right

Notice the leeches are instantly paralyzed in seltzer, but they did require 12 hours before we were certain they were expired. However, expiration of leeches was 100%. Insofar as RR is concerned, although seltzer is best, club soda is well within range and seems to work as well. Club soda has a small number of salts, but we have repeatedly found this to be negligible. If in doubt, club soda is a safe bet vs seltzer because some 'sparkling waters' are marketed as 'seltzers', but sparkling waters often are not fully carbonated. I once used Perrier which had no effect whatsoever. The seltzer you mentioned however is perfect. 

[HelplessNewbie]

@Odd Duck @dasaltemelosguy Does the Amazon brand look decent to you? https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07W95HYLH

[dasaltemelosguy]

On 7/22/2023 at 7:38 AM, HelplessNewbie said:

@Odd Duck @dasaltemelosguy Does the Amazon brand look decent to you? https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07W95HYLH

I literally just bought that very one! Yes, it's excellent and cheap too. 

[Odd Duck]

I would think it would be fine.  @dasaltemelosguy tested several brands.  I don’t remember if he tested that brand specifically, but he will know.

Hah!  He was faster than me!  😆 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Is this Java moss even worth RR or is it destined for the trash?

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Guppysnail]

On 7/29/2023 at 8:42 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Is this Java moss even worth RR or is it destined for the trash?

 

Most looks brown and dead. However I have had huge beautiful piles grow from a tiny 1 inch green strand. I would RR anything still green or even all then pick out the green since moss perks up in RR.