The Accidental Oto Keeper

[Torrey]

I would probably increase the amount of IAL, and probably boil some IAL tea and gradually increase the amount of tannins in QT for a few reasons. 

1. Eyes that are healing, tend to heal better and with less discomfort in low light settings. 

2. There is literally a plethora of research on the immune supporting properties of IAL for fish, that has been validated and replicated, including blood work from the fish that verified a causative relationship between IAL and the fish equivalent of T-cells

3. After this long term of treatment, I suspect that you have maximized the benefits of human intervention, and now the oto needs an opportunity to complete the healing on its own. 

Of course, those are my intuitive responses to following your thread. Unless you are able to get a sample from the tissue around the eye and test it for bacterial infection (and it tests positive) I wouldn't recommend more treatment at this point. 

I think you have been an amazing fish parent.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Torrey I really appreciate your kind words and insight and confirmation of some of the things I've been reading. I was planning on making some Indian Almond Leaf tea for both the QT and the Oto tank on my days off and utilize that. As it stands I have half an IAL in the QT tank- thought that would be sufficient since they say 1 IAL can be enough for a 10 gallon. and it's darkening nicely so the tea I make will bring it up a notch. 

I thought maybe lights would be an issue thankfully the Imagitarium holding tank I have them in has a top that doesn't allow a lot of light in so it's pretty low light especially when I'm not home and the kitchen lights are off. I'm trying my best to keep their stress level as low as possible. 

What is your opinion about the Epsom baths? Should these continue or should I leave the poor Oto be?

Edited December 26, 2021 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

The swelling is certainly down. Hope the Epsom salt soaks work! I don’t see any harm with every other day soaks. 

@Torreygreat idea, Indian almond leaves and humic acid would be helpful as well! 

[Torrey]

On 12/25/2021 at 5:30 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

What is your opinion about the Epsom baths? Should these continue or should I leave the poor Oto be?

My experience with epsom salts in people and animals (including finned pets) is any reduction in swelling typically happens in the first week... some injuries may take up to a month to heal and epsom can reduce the likelihood of infection if there's an open wound. As long as you saw noticeable, measurable improvements it made sense to keep using. It looks like you have achieved maximum benefit, as the last few pictures have not indicated continued reduction in swelling around the ocular orbit.

If there's not any noticeable improvement, it feels as if it is stressing the oto (as observed in appetite reduction) with insufficient benefits (no reduction in protrusion of the eye). I would stop.

That's based on reading your journal though, and not direct observation, so ultimately you have to make the call.

@Odd Duck might know of something I am missing, however. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Torrey Excellent observations. I'm just trying to take everything into account with multiple sources of info and determining a plan from there. I absolutely appreciate your input. 

[Odd Duck]

I think @Torreyhas some excellent points.  I would probably continue the IAL since it isn’t going to hurt and may help (other than viewing the patient).  As long as the Epsom salts soaks aren’t too stressful, you can continue intermittent soaks if you think they’re helping.  There is still some healing to happen since we’re talking about fish who truly have amazing healing capacity sometimes.  I’ve seen fish heal devastating wounds, regrow fins, tails, etc.  I’m not so sure this kiddo can fully heal the eye, but there still seems to be some small improvements happening.

The Epsom salts soaks are safe enough if the fish isn’t getting stressed by them, but I would probably go to every other day or twice weekly.  If you stop seeing those tiny, incremental improvements after soaking, then stop.  I would not repeat the Kanaplex at this point unless you see redness reappear.

I suspect you may be near maximum change at this point, but seeing a touch of movement in the eye is a good sign there’s still a small possibility of a bit more healing and improvement.

You have done a phenomenal job for this little guy!  It’s rare to see this much improvement after a traumatic popeye incident and it’s a tribute to your dedication that he/she has done this well.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Odd Duck you have been a tremendous help in this effort so thank you and appreciate your ongoing viewpoint- your assistance has helped little Oto get to where they are now. 

I still plan on talking to the University to see about a physical and if they can assist further with my patient if I can get an appointment after the new year. The fact that the injured eye has some function makes me want to believe it can heal a bit more at least. Here's hoping!

Edited December 26, 2021 by xXInkedPhoenixX
Typos are lame

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS VITATTUS: The Accidental Oto Tank AND The Parent Tank

BABIES!!!! So today while doing my daily maintenance in the Accidental Oto Tank I noticed a new 2-3 day old baby between the breeder and the front glass! I'm not sure if it was previously trapped or I in my maintenance mode did it, but the poor little thing got squished a bit and started to tumble down when I moved the breeder back to try and catch them. 😔 There was still some life in them so I caught them and at first put them in the breeder in the Accidental tank, but the babies in there are little roughian juvies at 2 months and a day old and could easily mosh pit this tiny already possibly mortally wounded baby so I pulled it and put it in the Parent Tank with the 2 others from there (I'm gonna need to grab a couple more breeder boxes this weekend I think). Little one was still upright on the bottom of the breeder but hadn't moved before I left to work. Either little one will recover or I'll be removing them tomorrow. Wish them luck. 

So I went back to the Accidental Tank and looked a bit more and found another baby. Caught them as well and put them in with their sibling and the Parent Tank's 8 day olds. This is that little one: 

While doing inspections I always try and make sure everyone is eating either by evidence of food being gone or little poops left behind. Today in The Parent Tank one of my 8 day olds made me proud by pooping the prettiest spiral I've ever seen in excrement, yeah I know I'm weird, but I'm fascinated by essential functions of life 🙂 

Edited December 27, 2021 by xXInkedPhoenixX
rearranging...

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS VITTATUS: The Accidental Oto Tank

Unfortunately yesterday's injured baby didn't make it. 😔 I know it happens but I still feel bad about it- its sibling is doing fine however. Today while doing my daily maintenance (along with a thorough baby hunt FIRST) I've spotted 2 more little tikes in the Accidental Tank. I left them alone for today as they were out of my reach. 

I've decided it's time I make a grow out tank for the Otos. I'm going to get a 5 gallon Aqueon and have its accoutrement in my Amazon and big box pet store virtual carts I guess I haven't pulled the trigger yet because I don't trust myself to have put everything I need in there (ever have that feeling you're forgetting something?). The big red button will be pushed sometime soon. This time it won't be bare bottom because I think it might be easier to catch them with substrate. I plan on getting moveable decor/hides and plants so I can take all of that out when I'm ready to catch them and take them along to the LFS. The 7 babies I have in the big floating breeder are ok for now, but if I keep getting new babies I'm going to need a place to float them for a while until big enough to put in the grow out. 

OTOCINCLUS VITTATUS: The Parent Tank

I still have a feeling Momma Oto is guarding something- but haven't seen any eggs or babies since the first two were caught 9 days ago- but if you think about it, I got the 7 in the Accidental Oto 2 months ago, and now getting a new batch. Boy can they be sporadic. 

I also made some Indian Almond Leaf tea today. I plan on adding it to at least a few of my tanks but most to the 2 Gallon QT for my popeye patient, and my Accidental Oto Tank. 

Edited December 28, 2021 by xXInkedPhoenixX
rearranging...

[Hobbit]

So sorry to hear the little baby didn’t make it. They’re so small and easy to miss. ❤️ 

I do have to say though—that poop spiral is very impressive. You have a gifted child.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS COCAMA (TIGER): The 2 Gallon QT

29 days after discovery of injury: Patient has been allowed some relaxation time- there have been no Epsom Soaks since the last one posted here. The water has gotten darker with the Indian Almond Leaf tea I made on my days off and new pieces of leaf. Every day I just remove old food and add new. It's hard to tell if there has been any improvement but it looks pretty good to me from the pictures I got today. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS VITATTUS: The Accidental Oto Tank and The Parent Tank

So it's been a rough set of days off in the baby Oto department for me. I found 3 new babies in the Accidental Tank, wait there's more. I had 2 options: put in the breeder in that tank with 2 month olds that could potentially mosh pit the tiny ones to death (as I have seen happen) OR put them in another breeder in the Parent Tank where a couple are from there and are still small. I generally don't like moving babies from one tank to another until they grow but it was a chance I thought was the better one at the time and the parameters aren't too far off in the tanks. Sadly seems I was wrong in the last 2 days I've lost 2 babies. If the 3rd one dies I'll know for sure it was not a good idea. I happened to order 2 more floating breeders before this happened so if I see any babies in the Accidental tank before then I'll just leave them there- there are no predators in that tank. 

The babies in the Accidental Oto breeder are 2 months and 5 days old, they're getting big enough that a larger space would be good for them but not big enough by any stretch for the LFS (which require them to be 1"- takes at least 6mos for some of them).

I've determined there is a need for a grow out tank. So over my days off I pieced together a 5.5 gallon tank. The tank has been set up with substrate, new wood- plants glued and rocks- plants glued- as I want all decor and plants to be removeable for catching later. Sponge filter and glass lid installed. Did a lot of running around in my city to find most of the pieces. Waiting on light which is coming Monday. I'm really happy with the pieces of wood and plants on rocks I found- I took pics but sorry they aren't great- with no light and lots of reflections around. (used a flashlight to try and get the tank pic- that didn't work well...

THE NITRATE EXPERIMENT: Fun with Plants: The Accidental Oto Tank

Well, after last week and the promising dip in Nitrate I was looking forward to a test this week and hoping for more movement. Sadly it just went back up again in the red no man's land. Oh well, maybe next week....or the week after...

This week's test:

Temp: 76.9 (down 1.1)

pH: 7.2 (same)

Ammonia: 0

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: 40 (back up)

KH: 4/71.6

GH: 143.2 (same)

Edited December 31, 2021 by xXInkedPhoenixX
rearranging...

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS VITTATUS AND COCAMA (TIGER): The Accidental Oto Tank and The Parent Tank

First of my days off I can take the daily tank maintenance a bit slower and enjoy my fish. Checked on all my babies, no recent losses. 7 in the Accidental and 4 in the Parent (2 of those from the Accidental tank). The ones in the Accidental tank are growing up well- hoping to put them in the Nursery tank I'm almost done setting up some time soon. I envy the Otos' ability to relax...

[Minanora]

Loving all the updates. Sorry to read of your loss. I'm still in awe of your accidental otos that continue to make more! So great!

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS VITTATUS: The Accidental Nursery

So today I got the rest of my supplies for the aformentioned grow out tank, whose official name is The Accidental Nursery Tank. Yes it's slated for my Vittatus- but wouldn't it be nice to eventually have some Cocamas in there? Yes, yes it would. (however you can bet your bottom if my Cocama bred I'm keeping some).

Anyhow, since I put the Mopani wood in after a good boil: 

I put it in the tank and just let it go as I was waiting on my light...it wasn't (and still isn't I'm sure) done with me yet. It sat without notice until my light came. I purposefully bought a low powered light for this little tank. Boy, I was NOT impressed with it when I put it on (truly it might be just a little too low powered) BUT then I thought- well maybe it's because my water looks like this: 

....oh wait sorry that's my coffee, my bad. It actually looked like this:

Nope. Nope. I don't mind the tea look but I'm not ready to go that dark. Plus you have to consider these are the Otos that should be going to the LFS or another hobbyist- most people (and pretty much all fish stores) don't have tanks like this- hence the conditions might be a little too far apart for my tank bred- tank bred Otos to take. I've started putting a couple of leaves in the Accidental Oto tank but it's not tea there. So I did a water change. Wow I can see!! Much better. 

The above After pic was when the lights were turned out in my house the one below is when they are on. There's still tea there, but my tolerance level. The Otos won't be going into it for a while, maybe a few more weeks so I have time to adjust stuff and get the water parameters up to snuff. I got my new floating breeders too so I'm ready for some bebes!!!

Edited January 5, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX
rearranging...

[johnzhe]

New tank looking good! I've tried getting the tea look in my tank before, never really got that far.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS COCAMA (TIGER): The 2 Gallon QT

So it has been 38 days today that my patient was found. A couple of days ago I did an Epsom soak, mostly to check on them but hopefully to help. Meh. Probably won't do them anymore- what I can say is does seem like we've reached a plateau in healing. I've had a few personal setbacks so I've been delayed- however hopefully in the next week I'll be talking to the local veterinary teaching school to get an appointment and see if there is anything further that can be done. If not and patient seems as healed as  they're going to be they may be released then to the gen pop of the Accidental Oto Tank. We have good color and no visible exposed damage: 

OTOCINCLUS VITATTUS: The Parent Tank

Haven't thought to take a pic yet but recently discovered some eggs under the leaves of the Amazon that Momma Oto usually hangs around- the unfortunate part is they are opaque and fuzzy- so likely not viable. I'll have to get in there this week and knock them off/clean them up. I did however find one tiny baby that got put in with the others this week. So we're moving along in the baby making. 

Edited January 9, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX
rearranging...

[Odd Duck]

@xXInkedPhoenixX That does look to be likely as resolved as it’s going to get.  The tissue around the eye looks quiet and not inflamed.  It may still get ever so slightly better because fish are amazing at healing, but chances are that’s as good as it’s going to get.  I think it’s really done amazing, considering where you started.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS COCAMA (TIGER): The 2 Gallon QT

I've been relatively inactive on the forum the last week as I have not been feeling great but the fish are still getting their daily maintenance. I've been in contact with the local University Veterinary division and they put me in email contact with an Aquatics Vet. I filled out a history form, sent pictures and my own synopsis. Dr Jungers, DVM CertAqV is interested in doing a physical exam on my little patient after reviewing the information. They only have aquatic patients on Tuesdays at 10. Sadly I have a mandatory work training class THIS Tuesday so the appointment is delayed until the 25th- though I'm still waiting on someone to contact me to finalize the appointment (read: I'll likely have to call them myself on my days off to confirm). It's gonna cost me but I'm interested in seeing what the Doc is going to say and if there is anythiing she can do to help the fish. This is the price of being a caretaker and I'm willing to pay it. Used to keep pet rats and people would always look at me weird when I'd mention I take them to the vet (had them spayed even- which cuts down on their chances for tumors DRASTICALLY), even a few emergency visits under my belt. Why would you do that for a $5 animal they'd ask....um, because that's what you're supposed to do when you take on another life form and it depends on you. 😑 (plus, pets are priceless)....

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS VITTATUS: The Accidental Oto Tank

So the babies in the floating breeder are doing well and have had no losses. They are as of today 2 months 29 days. This group I've observed do not keep their breeder very tidy- it's covered in algae (granted not the kind they typically eat but still you would think they'd have kept any algae at bay before it got anywhere). I've also seen this group is the TIGHTEST group I've had yet- they pretty much stick together the vast majority of their time. They have calmed down- don't ping-pong around the breeder like some younger Otos are prone to do (then they mosh somebody to death....). This is the happy group, all 7. No recent signs of babies here.

Recent Parameters (1/20):

Temp: 77.9

pH: 7.8 (up from 7.2 the prior 3 tests)

Ammonia: 0

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: 40 (just likes it here even with the bamboo experiment going)

KH: 3/53.7 (down a degree from last test)

GH: 125.3 (down from 143.2 last 2 tests)

OTOCINCLUS VITTATUS: The Parent Tank

What remained of the floating breeder is now down to 2. I'm guessing they are the original 2 I found in the Parent tank but there's no way to really know. 2 days ago I found the smallest of the remaining 3 deceased. Was past the stage I usually get "infant death" so I suspect this little one was moshed to death by its siblings as they are SUPER erratic still. No recent signs of any new babies. Momma Oto lurks in her turf...the previously mentioned fungus ridden eggs I found...well when I went to go collect them soon after mentioned, they were no longer there. I guess a snail or someone took care of it for me.

Recent Parameters (1/20):

Temp: 75.6

pH: 7.8 (been this for 2wks)

Ammonia: 0

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: 40 (just won't go down)

KH: 4/71.6 (for last 4 tests)

GH: 179 (up from last week but the same number the week prior to that)

OTOCINCLUS COCAMA (TIGER): The 2 Gallon QT

Patient with Popeye has their appointment with the University Tuesday morning. I was given directions on how to get there. The unfortunate thing is it seems they are still not letting anyone inside. This is a HUGE disappointment to me since half the point to me of a vet visit (ESPECIALLY WITH "EXOTICS") is being able to ask questions AS the exam is done, it also gives me an opportunity to THINK of said questions or be able to clarify things for the DR. A phone call to me in my car from the vet isn't very helpful to me. Now they didn't SPECIFICALLY say they aren't allowing people in but the gal on the phone did say they will guide me how to check in at the door. Since she didn't say at the front counter, in the lobby, etc etc I am just assuming this. I hope that it isn't the case when I get there, meeting face to face even if masked is very important to me in these cases. Hopefully after just about 2 years of this they have something that will make this less frustrating to me. 😞 

Edited January 23, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX
rearranging...

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS VITTATUS: The Accidental Oto Tank

If you're sensitive to deceased fishy pics you may not want to read this post. I guess I spoke too soon. After yesterday's post I got up this morning to do the daily maintenance. Unfortunately one of my 7 baby Otos was found gone. Everyone else seems ok. Upon inspection the gill area is a bit inflamed but that could be an after death effect as their gills are usually pretty pink to begin with and I'm not sure how long they've been deceased. That would raise a brow to check ammonia- couldn't test today as I had to be to work but the Ammonia Alert is bright yellow (meaning no "iffy" reading) and everyone else looks normal that I could see. 

So I thought, ok well I'm going to need to see them a bit better and maybe I have a bigger breeder box. So one of my new breeders isn't a lot bigger but definitely a bit bigger. And cleaner. So I can actually see the babies from all sides. I'm bummed about the loss but it does happen. Onwards and upwards. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX
rearranging...

[Hobbit]

So sorry for your loss. I’m glad the other ones are looking fine though. And I hope you get to talk with the vet face to face at least for a little bit.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS COCAMA (TIGER): The 2 Gallon QT

Well I just got off the phone with the University Doc that will be doing the exam tomorrow. Doctor Souza spoke with me over the phone to advise me about how the exam will go tomorrow. She asked that the patient (known as Tiger to them) be brought with aeration available. (was already gonna) That the patient be brought with extra water (can do). 

She advised she will also be doing the exam with the ophthalmology department employee on duty at that time which will be at about 10:30 (appointment is at 10). They will of course have to anethetize my little one I asked with what and she said they use a powder called MS Triple 2 (maybe @Odd Duck you've heard of it?). The exam alone will only determine (likely) that he/she is healthy and visual inspection of the eye area. Tests will of course (likely) be recommended up to and including removal of the eye. Total cost estimate so far: $500. 

Bumpy ride ahead....

[Odd Duck]

MS222 is the most often recommended anesthetic for fish.  We have the most studies and information about its use vs other anesthetic drugs for fish.  It is notoriously difficult to get and usually only available at the university level or if someone sees a lot of fish.  I’ve used it during fish surgery labs but never had it available in practice.  I’ve mostly used propofol (a commonly used injectable anesthetic) mixed into water, then plain, dechlorinated water is used alternately with the anesthetic mixture (no matter which anesthetic is used) as needed to reduce the anesthetic depth if needed.  A small power head (or 2 is better, one for each solution with appropriately sized tubing and valve to regulate the flow) to pump the solution through the gills for the anesthesia if it’s going to be prolonged.  For a short procedure, sometimes the fish is placed into the solution until anesthetized, the work done, then placed back into plain water to recover.

It sounds like they are properly prepared for whatever they need to do.  Have you made certain they are aware of the patient size?  Sometimes vets are so busy they don’t look up the species and may not realize the overall size.  Not many owners are dedicated enough to bring in such a small, fairly short-lived fish.  We are much more likely to see larger, longer-lived fish - discus, goldfish, koi, oscars, angelfish, or other cichlids for instance.  I’ve done loads of free phone consults but only a very few people have actually paid me for work on fish.

[Odd Duck]

Take a good amount of your regular, dechlorinated water, 5 gallons if you can.  Just in case they want to have enough to mix up different concentrations and still have plenty for recovery.  Take at least a couple fish bags and rubber bands, too, for the trip home.  I know you are taking a bubbler, but bags are less stressful than sloshing.  Take a cooler, too, to help keep the temp steady.  I would also take a tiny heater if you have one, since their room temp is likely to be lower than your typical tank temp.  How portable is the entire 2 gallon QT?  It would likely make a good recovery tank so they can watch him/her closer that way.