Quarantine medication trio safe for beneficial bacteria?

[BeginnerFishKeeper]

Is the quarantine medication trio (Fritz paracleanse, Mardel Maracyn, and Ich-x) safe for beneficial bacteria and plants? I’m mostly worried about the Mardel Maracyn because many have said it does harm beneficial bacteria as it’s active ingredient erythromycin can attack nitrifying bacteria. Some say it only affects beneficial bacteria in newer tanks which I may fall into that category as my tank just finished cycling. I figured I could use the medication trio in my cycled, planted tank for my betta fish as it will be the first fish introduced to the tank but how is that possible if Mardel Maracyn affects beneficial bacteria? I really wouldn’t want to have to fish - in - cycle if the maracyn were to kill the beneficial bacteria with the betta fish in the tank. Thanks 🙂

[Guppysnail]

Short answer yes. It is an antibiotic it indiscriminately attacks all bacteria. Whether it it always successful at killing all of it no. In my qt tanks it has killed much and disrupted but not destroyed my cycle. I keep extra sponge filters in all tanks and after chemical removal of all meds and water change stick a cycled unmedicated one in to bolster until it again stabilizes. 

[Odd Duck]

No, it’s not safe.  It will kill off a lot of your beneficial bacteria.  If you have an already mature filter, pull it out and use one that isn’t mature, then swap back once meds are out.  Make sure to keep the seasoned filter alive in another tank.

If you don’t have a mature filter, you can start treating in the quarantine tank (remove carbon first but save it, you’ll need it later).  Start a filter maturing in your display tank as soon as possible (if you haven’t already).  Then you’ll have a cycled tank for them to go into once your 30 day quarantine is done.

[Guppysnail]

Chemical meaning carbon use 

[Odd Duck]

On 10/25/2021 at 2:03 PM, Guppysnail said:

Short answer yes. It is an antibiotic it indiscriminately attacks all bacteria. Whether it it always successful at killing all of it no. In my qt tanks it has killed much and disrupted but not destroyed my cycle. I keep extra sponge filters in all tanks and after chemical removal of all meds and water change stick a cycled unmedicated one in to bolster until it again stabilizes. 

I’m so glad we match up on our answers!  Nice to have a couple different ways of saying the same thing.  We must have posted at almost the same time, but I’m ORD.

[Guppysnail]

@Odd Ducki think we did and yes matching responses gives folks confidence. 

[BeginnerFishKeeper]

Thank you both so much @Guppysnail and @Odd Duck !!! So since it will kill the beneficial bacteria I’ll have to set up a separate quarantine tank. How do I safely keep the fish quarantined for 1 month or longer if there isn’t any bacteria to convert the ammonia? Won’t the ammonia just build up until it kills the fish? 

[Odd Duck]

On 10/25/2021 at 2:56 PM, BeginnerFishKeeper said:

Thank you both so much @Guppysnail and @Odd Duck !!! So since it will kill the beneficial bacteria I’ll have to set up a separate quarantine tank. How do I safely keep the fish quarantined for 1 month or longer if there isn’t any bacteria to convert the ammonia? Won’t the ammonia just build up until it kills the fish? 

Water changes as needed to keep the ammonia under control.  You’ll have to size up the filter and tank, or do fewer fish at a time.  What size tank do you have available for a QT?  What kind of fish do you want and how many is your end goal?

Edit to add it probably won’t kill ALL your bacteria, but it can sure give them a bad knock.  They tend to bounce back quicker than they built up in the first place, but it’s better to always have a QT anyway.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Odd Duck

[BeginnerFishKeeper]

On 10/25/2021 at 1:40 PM, Odd Duck said:

Water changes as needed to keep the ammonia under control.  You’ll have to size up the filter and tank, or do fewer fish at a time.  What size tank do you have available for a QT?  What kind of fish do you want and how many is your end goal?

Edit to add it probably won’t kill ALL your bacteria, but it can sure give them a bad knock.  They tend to bounce back quicker than they built up in the first place, but it’s better to always have a QT anyway.

Right now I don’t have a quarantine tank because I was planning on dosing the medication in my 20 gallon display tank, but I’ll probably get a 10 gallon tank or tub for quarantine. Right now I’m only getting a betta fish for my tank, far down the line I’d like to look into tank mates but that wouldn’t be for a long while, and even then I’d just be considering it. Would water changes mess with the medications effectiveness? I’ve heard that even 0.25 ppm of ammonia is bad, so how do I effectively keep the ammonia below that? 

[Guppysnail]

Use seachem prime or fritz complete between water changes it detoxifies ammonia and nitrite for approximately 24 hours keeping your fishes safe. 

[dmurray407]

Sooo, could you medicate in a temporary holding tank (say a plastic bin with a sponge filter in it) and when the medication "week" is finished, put the fish in a cycled "quarantine" tank to complete the quarantine process?

[BeginnerFishKeeper]

On 10/25/2021 at 4:21 PM, dmurray407 said:

Sooo, could you medicate in a temporary holding tank (say a plastic bin with a sponge filter in it) and when the medication "week" is finished, put the fish in a cycled "quarantine" tank to complete the quarantine process?

That’s what I was wondering, although it’s recommended to re-dose fritz paracleanse the 4th week but on fritz website it says that paracleanse could also inhibit nitrifying bacteria so I wonder how that would work? 

[laritheloud]

FWIW, Paracleanse and API General Cure have never knocked out my cycle, and treating the tank with paracleanse only shouldn't cause you issues. Maracyn, though, has definitely given me a cycle setback in the past, and it took two to three weeks of frequent water changes to stop seeing minor ammonia readings (like 0.25 to 0.5 ppm). Be prepared and know that you'll likely see a bit of a hit to the cycle during and a little while after treatment.

[BeginnerFishKeeper]

On 10/25/2021 at 5:18 PM, laritheloud said:

FWIW, Paracleanse and API General Cure have never knocked out my cycle, and treating the tank with paracleanse only shouldn't cause you issues. Maracyn, though, has definitely given me a cycle setback in the past, and it took two to three weeks of frequent water changes to stop seeing minor ammonia readings (like 0.25 to 0.5 ppm). Be prepared and know that you'll likely see a bit of a hit to the cycle during and a little while after treatment.

Thank you for your response! So right now I’m thinking to dose the trio of meds in a quarantine tank for 1 week, then move the betta fish into the main tank and re-dose paracleanse in the main tank the 4th week. My main concern is the quarantine tank. Would using seachem prime be enough to protect the fish from ammonia build up? Should I use a seeded sponge filter just as an extra measure of precaution? I don’t have one currently so how long would I run a new sponge filter in my tank if I were to use one? 

[Guppysnail]

No prime alone is not enough if you have no seeded media in my opinion unless you are doing crazy amounts of water changes.  2 weeks 3 if you can will be a decent seeded sponge. I would seed two. Paracleanse should be 1 week on 1 week off next week redose. The reason is to get the eggs that are not treatable to hatch then treat before they can lay new eggs. so 1 sponge 1 treatment trio. Remove meds via carbon and water changes. Place 2nd sponge in for off week and 2nd paracleanse dose. If I have seen no issues I do not do a second round but many folks do as precaution. 

[BF McUmber]

If Maracyn is the main issue with the trio and beneficial bacteria, how hard is it to tell bacterial infections that maracyn would treat? 

If you only have one tank would it be worth just dosing the ich-X and the paracleanse? and then watching out for bacteria? or is that just overthinking it. 

[laritheloud]

I personally choose not to dose Maracyn during quarantine and stick with anti-parasitic meds only.

[2000tetras]

On 10/25/2021 at 11:00 PM, laritheloud said:

I personally choose not to dose Maracyn during quarantine and stick with anti-parasitic meds only.

At my city apartment maracyn kills my bb but at my dads country house it does not. 
 

I have to quarantine at my city appt most times so I use Furan 2 for the first week and then after a 70% water change dose ick x and paraclense/ general cure for the second. Furan 2 in my experience has never killed BB but does kill plants.

[Hobbit]

You’re getting great advice here! Just a few clarifications:

1. If you’re using the med trio according to the co-op’s method, you don’t actually follow the directions on the med boxes. Instead, follow their directions here: https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/faqs/how-to-use-quaratine-med-trio
2. Following this method, you wouldn’t be feeding your fish while using the meds. That means you’d have very little ammonia produced. (Ammonia is a waste product of fish metabolizing their food.)

[BeginnerFishKeeper]

On 10/25/2021 at 10:09 PM, Hobbit said:

You’re getting great advice here! Just a few clarifications:

1. If you’re using the med trio according to the co-op’s method, you don’t actually follow the directions on the med boxes. Instead, follow their directions here: https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/faqs/how-to-use-quaratine-med-trio
2. Following this method, you wouldn’t be feeding your fish while using the meds. That means you’d have very little ammonia produced. (Ammonia is a waste product of fish metabolizing their food.)

Thank you so much, do you think I could get away with not dosing paracleanse the 4th week? I really don’t want to risk harming my beneficial bacteria. If I need to dose paracleanse the 4th week what would I do if it did affect my bb and I got an ammonia or Nitrite spike? 

[Hobbit]

On 10/26/2021 at 4:20 PM, BeginnerFishKeeper said:

do you think I could get away with not dosing paracleanse the 4th week?

Hmm. I’m not sure I follow. What medication schedule are you currently planning?

On 10/26/2021 at 4:20 PM, BeginnerFishKeeper said:

what would I do if it did affect my bb and I got an ammonia or Nitrite spike? 

In general, if you get an ammonia or nitrite spike during quarantine, you just have to do water changes until it’s gone. Yes it could remove medication from the water too early, but generally having clean water is more important to the fish’s health than getting those meds. You may have to re-dose the meds once the ammonia or nitrite spike is over.

[CT_]

I don't have any direct evidence either way but one study showed that the nitrifying microbes in most aquariums are actually archaea and so would probably not be effected by most antibiotics.   Also erithromycin kills mostly gram positive bacteria and at least Nitrobacter spp. are gram negative.

 

Then again at least for the system studied it did halt the nitrogen cycle. https://cdnsciencepub.com/doi/10.1139/f76-032

 

Sooo 🤷‍♀️

[BeginnerFishKeeper]

On 10/26/2021 at 4:37 PM, Hobbit said:

Hmm. I’m not sure I follow. What medication schedule are you currently planning?

I was going to use the aquarium co-op med trio for 1 week in a quarantine tank, then move the fish into the aquarium and dose paracleanse the 4th week. 

[Hobbit]

Ah! Got it. I don’t think dosing paracleanse the 4th week is necessary unless your fish are looking a bit unwell. If you’re seeing clamped fins or lethargy or something, then I would try paracleanse, but if everyone looks good, I would feel comfortable skipping it.

[BeginnerFishKeeper]

On 10/26/2021 at 8:44 PM, Hobbit said:

Ah! Got it. I don’t think dosing paracleanse the 4th week is necessary unless your fish are looking a bit unwell. If you’re seeing clamped fins or lethargy or something, then I would try paracleanse, but if everyone looks good, I would feel comfortable skipping it.

Perfect, thank you so much for the help!