mountaintoppufferkeeper

I have done sterbai eggs in the ziss box. I prefer it for corys over the other styles of breeder box; id suggest adding live moss etc from the main tank in there when they hatch for the micro foods and cover it provides them. I do like the mesh bottom since its that much more water flow and i dont need to worry about temp fluctuations or water quality quite as much as other methods. They other bonus is any food the fry dont eat generally falls through. They get a little gunky at 7 days or so and i siphon the mesh with an airline tube. I just roll the eggs from the tank side where layed to my gloved finger and to the inside of the box. They were spaced enough that the fungus didnt spread from the few that did fungus. They cory fry will normally sit on that plastic edge in mine. I have the box in a 50 gallon. I normally feed the box standard food this is extreme flake, they also have done repashy in the box and live baby brine. The brine will fall through the mesh and feed the rest of the tank. Im sure its possible that they could have a freak accident but i personally think this box is excellent for my fry. If i do methelyne blue i use a specimine container hung in the tank with a slow bubbling rigid airline to break surface tension. Sterbai fry F2 i also use the boxes to raise batches of mekong puffer fry. Normaly they stay in them to 24 days with no issues before moving to a grow out tank. F1 puffer fry Tonights pull day 0 F1 Pao cf palustris

I sure dont mind the weather even up here in Divide

I bet however it happened its a neat story. But Id guess as some point somewhere in the distribution line not too long before the retail store one hatchling survived getting mixed into the pea puffers and and ended up in that photo. Something probably worth noting is Pao species are generally 10 to 15 cm ( 4 to 6 inches) grown.

@KentFishFanUK I could easily be proven wrong as it grows. I am not an expert but to me it looks like a less than 2 month old puffer of one of the many species of pao puffer. I have not seen Pao abei fry but they do seem to have those brownish spots more than the dark green spots of the palustris color form. I think it would be hard to tell until it grows a bit more. I am basing that off of the smaller current size, general proportions of body at that size, and coloration vs what Ive seen with my palustris fry. Ive seen that dark band between the eye and lower jaw, the light belly the darker body and that red eyespot centered on the body and between the leading edges of the dorsal and anal fins. I have not seen that outside of pao fry in my limited experiences. The pao are fairly variable in pattern and color as they grow and attached to show how far they change colors and patterns to fit a situation. I would also check with the Kyoto Freshwater Pufferfish Breeding Institute in Japan. They are on social media and responsive when time permits on their end. Keep in mind it is a communication translated through something like google translate on both ends. It is nearly, but not completly, 100% accurate on both ends of the translation to and from Japanese from English. When it has to deal with more complex sentence structures it gets more interesting than it should. Pictures to show the variation Pao cf palustris Fry Adolescents same group in each shot Adolescent male in darker green. Id bet the colors are chaged for all sorts of reasons in pao My adult male in breeding color Same adult male in non breeding color

Id email greg he nomally emails back pretty quickly.

No problem my best of them are the GIFs. Crenicichla regani Rio Tapajos wild caught with F1 fry: Female of Wild caught pair with F1 fry day 1 at first light. out of cave for an hour Day 10 wild caught male larger grey wild caught female striped below Day 31 fry with parents day 31 fry pulled at day 14 It was a pretty good fishroom morning on new years day 2021.

Too awesome to not share with the fishfam. Disclaimer: I did a little photo shop edit and cut to "protect the innocent" / make it match my screen name for posting. I earned my first BAP certificate the Colorado Aquarium Society Breeders Award for achieving 50 points in the breeders award program. The two species that got me to the 50 point level were my F1 batch of Crenicichlia regani "Rio Tapajos" And my recent batches of F1 Pao cf palustris alomg with the written report that was essentially posted here in the forum I am slowly working my way master breeder award. Thanks @Cory, I did not realise I could participate in BAP until I found Aquarium COOP way back when. My long term goal is to make Master Breeder like @Dean’s Fishroom or at a minimum have fun with the species I have now and the next species I try keeping happy and breeding in the future.

I haven't done snail cubes but I also have quite a few pest snail eaters. If I were to try the snail paste in a grinder bought just for the intention of making fish food I would add maybe a little vitachem etc just to increase the nutrition a bit. and freeze the paste in a ziplock to break off as needed or a cube to drop in. And probably permanent marker that deal so my wife didn't use the snail grinder accidentally on coffee or something. Depending on the size of the fish involved in feeding the snails, I would consider just doing frozen whole or crushed frozen snails added into a repashy mix etc. then freezing that so that they could uncover and eat them as they went.

Update i only pull a portion. Day today: Pao cf palustris Day 14 Coop purchased ziss breeder box. Semi permanent enough to grow algae. It really works well for them. Feeding heavy baby brine it goes out the screen and feeds the 50 gallon of dwarf chain loach and tetra. Siphon the box daily when feeding heavy .

The reviews on the zach black cichlid sand is that is has some white flecks in it. The back of the bag onlime mentions aragonite so im assuming the flecks are the crushed coral / aragonite. Full disclaimer I have not buffered to african cichlid levels but my set ups use those old school box filters with some crushed coral in them for limited buffering. In theory a box filter in tank with a bunch of crushed coral in it should work the same as the substrate buffering. I only run that bit of coral at the bottom but you could likely fill the whole deal where the rings and floss are with crushed coral and buffer water as effectively as substrate. This is a typical setup for the puffers. Have you considered something like that ? I view anything that is buffering as a consumable item that at some point will need refreshing. The cichlid black substrate seems like it would just loose the flecks and become essentially blasting media over time.

This group does seem to be less aggressive than expected towards the loaches that refused to be caught. They do have a fishroom cam though. But males are hyper territorial for the females already. No fights though just more chasing without damage.

very cool one of these days ill drive down the mountain from divide colorado to attend in person

also hobbyist vs serious breeder here. Though my long term goal is to get a master breeder certificate in the future

Mine is the Pao cf palustris My puffer trio of 1 Male 2 Female produces however many eggs are in this cave every 14 days or so. With 50 to 75 makimg it to pulling size once the male removes any bad ones. When I choose to pull a portion of eggs out to breeder boxes I could end up with approximately 50 per new fry every month easily. Its more than I expected going in. Anyone else have other species that really fire off for them in numbers that you didnt expect to achieve initially? Which was the most surprising success? Im at the point with these guys where I can make the 50 puffers a month fairly easily if I had the space and chose to do so.

Congratulations that is so cool

A bit of an oddball larger characin in which the males guard the spawn. This guarding is a bit indirect and is a result of their aggression in defending their territory. The fry hatch within the males area and no one bothers them. I hope to witness that in the coming months and years. The red gold body and deep red fins are impressive in person. I didnt even know these existed until 3 weeks ago. Not yet fully grown male chasing off a female Not entirely against other fish in the tank. These dwarf chain loaches are happy to be out with them feeding on live baby brineshrimp. The loaches have created the MTS graveyard you see

I generally guess 30-40% of retail price from a LFS but Im normally happy to move them on and take whatever is offered. Less expenses and more room for the next batch or project has value to me in addition to whatever the store pays/trades/credits me for them. I dont believe the store is trying to get rich off me any more than I am trying to get rich off them. Anything within the range of 25%-50% of their local retail pricing for the species and size I bring them seems fair to me.

They look like Tetraodon schoutedeni to me as well. Havent kept them in a while but id pay my schoutendeni money for them. Update Found the old pics of mine going full ramshorn in 2018

Update my O2 tests. The indepth tank stats - 75 gallon with heavy plants, 2 box filters, one bio wheel for surface agitation, temperature 74⁰-76⁰, 3/4" of pool filter sand for substrate. Stocking level : Pao cf palustris 1 adult male 2 adult females Plants: 1 crinum, +/- 1/2 lb of subwassertang, 12"x12" patch of a dwarf chain sword colony, 15"x6" pogostemon octopus. Anubias barteri, floating versions of moneywort and pennywort, duckweed, 15"x15" sword plant of some sort. My O2 test reads about 10 ppm dissolved oxygen at 148pm water temperature 75⁰ Light: fluval aquasky 900nm usimg these settings. More power has created more algae and less exploring by the puffers. I shoot for a subdued light that still grows plants for the water quality benefits This tank gets indirect and occasional direct sunlight through sliding glass door. Sunrise up here was 653am today. other two checked : A 50 gallon with butterfly fish and baby dolphin runs at 77⁰-78⁰ with 30% light power and less live plants or algae. That reading was closer to 8ppm which could be a function of the temperature of the water. A 35 gallon tank with goodied and java moss 66⁰-72⁰ depending on the furnace cycle of the day. That was +/-12 ppm dissolved O2 The results were varied and im sure would be lower at sunrise due to the plants. My guess is if i run live plants and airstones it stays between 8ppm and 12ppm of dissolved oxygen up here and the temperature is more of the determining factor than the altitude. Final results 1pm-2pm (lights on + 5 hours to lights on +6 hours) 77⁰-78⁰ 50 gallon tank +/- 8ppm dissolved O2 74⁰-76⁰ 75 gallon tank +/- 10ppm dissolved O2 70⁰-72⁰ 35 gallon tank +/- 12 ppm dissolved O2

I am looking forward to completing my tests as another high altitude keeper of the group and comparing the reaults. We are at 9,137 feet altitude up here. My only similar experience was a co2 diy set up blowing co2 all night full open and killing bucktooth tetra within hours. The video did seem like the water was a bit cloudy along with washed out color and rapid breathing. @Pinky I also keep a resin obsorber on hand like the square polyfilter, or those bag versions chemi-pure etc. They are my what is happening 911 response along with a waterchange just in case something got in the tank I wasnt aware of. I also have used the polyfilter cubed up in a box filter to give me a sense of water quality based off its color change for what it has taken in. @Guppysnail Im certainly not an expert but have a few observations ive picked up on the mountain. The oxygen in thinner air does change your blood a bit with more red blood cells by volume which allows proper oxygen levels in blood. I do not see why that system adjustment would be limted to mamals though. I assume that it is possible fish produce more blood cells to maintain some level of stability in oxygen capacity at lower o2 concentrations at high altitudes assuming the water conditions are good otherwise. If that is accurate I would also assume that younger fish and those individuals or species without some weakness in their circulatory systems adapt easier. I do not have my dissolved oxygen stats yet but I will update when I do and try for a few tanks of various flows temperstures and supplemental oxygen to compare. My tanks all run lots of plants, sponge or box filters, and airstones. Any differences in O2 havent negatively impacted survivability or reproduction of my freshwater puffers, dwarf pike, bolivian rams, rarer kribs, corydoras, or mouthbrooding betta. When I have recieved mature species up here breeding occured within a week or two. I believe that is partially attributable to air pressure difference ( similar to a weather front coming through). I have lost fish within hours to co2 failure on before, a cycle mini crash/a bad bottle of conditioner, or some substance interfering with the oxygen exchange of the fish would do it. More oxygen has never been a bad thing up here. My (subject to change) belief is that fish are highly adaptable to a huge range of ph, oxygen, temperature, and food source changes and most will thrive in the oxygen levels we have in aquariums at sea level up to at least 9,137 feet. There has been limited research on the subject with inverts at altitude: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C6&q=oxygen+saturation+of+water+at+altitude&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&u=%23p%3DdVOKwTSbhJ4J

Agreed on the danger of improper disposal of species being a problem. That blows my mind everytime its reported. I remember baby snakeheads being in local fishstores in the 90s all the time. Colorful and fun looking .... then it grows up to a giant. The 57 species of snakehead, Channidae, were banned under a final rule under the lacey act in 2002. That dollowed a proposed rule, a period of public comment and peer review, before the FWS considered comments and adjusted the final rule on snakeheads. It was interesting to read the government addressing the respondent concerns to the proposed rule and how that process improved that final rule and the ability to enforce it clearly. I did not realize the FWS posted that it was a tremendous credit to the fish hobby that only a very few snakeheads were found in the wild despite their prevalence in the hobby at that time. It read like more of a hot topic due to the use of live snakeheads as a food fish in some grocery stores and markets at the time. The last fish species to be added to the list were done in 2016. I imagine that is both a function of the process to get something added to the list with a proposed rule, the process to consider and address concerns and adjustments in the final rule, and the economics of adding something to the list with that process. Only 189 non-salmon fish species on the federal list pre-presumptive bans and most of those are walking catfish, carp, or snakeheads. I know most US states ban quite a few species, crayfish, gambusia sp. livebearers etc, within their borders that other states may allow. https://www.fws.gov/injuriouswildlife/list-of-injurious-wildlife.html

I say whatever fish you enjoy keeping the most is the easiest to learn breeding with because you are that much more into their system set up, observation of the tank, and feeding /conditioning the group or pair. Even the percieved impossible species are attainable if I am all in on them. (Betta macrosoma in 2018, Pao puffers in 2021). Anything that you enjoy keeping that also exhibits some level of parental care is a good choice in my opinion. The parents do the hard work for you and you can often feed the same foods in one tank vs having a system to get fry from eggs and then raise those on micro foods until brine shrimp etc can be fed. I view mouthbrooding, cave spawing, and spawn guarding anything as easier than some livebearers. Cichlids, a few characin (tetra) species, some betta, and some puffers fall into these categories of spawn guarding. Livebearers have often been pretty heavy fry eaters (even in heavy plant cover for me) and often seasonal breeders. Goodeids, wild swordtails, limia, and true freshwater halfbeaks have all been fairly hard to keep going for me for these reasons. My black prince goodeids, Charcodon audax El Toboso, for example are especially prone to that fry eating and are seasonal spawners. They breed every 60 days or so for about half the year 3 or 4 batches a year per female if im lucky. Livebearers - like harder water, heavy plants in my setups Variatus platy Guppy ( though ive never really got into them) Goodeids - big fry are easy to feed day 1 Cichlids - like territory suitable to defend in my set ups Kribs - Pelvicachromis any species you like Crenicichla regani African butterfly cichlid ( they never stop up here...ever) African cichlid mouthbrooders aratus, egyptian dwarf mouthbrooders, etc Shell dweller cichlids - neolampralogus species and lamprologus species Betta and catfish - well fed and plant cover for fry to hid and feed in Betta Albimarginata, macrostoma, antuna, etc mouthbrooders Corydoras (most species) - heavy plants down low, good food, water changes, no snails. Some survive and grow in tank with enough cover for eggs to avoid predation.

AI have read the sections in the house bill ( pages 1661-1665) and the introduced senate bill on ammending the lacey act to a presumptive ban on importing, possessing, or crossing state lines with any species not approved by the secretary of the interior. The Lacey act defines wild as any creatures that, whether or not raised in captivity, normally are found in a wild state. The Which makes all aquarium inhabitants "wild" for the purposes of the law. This includes eggs and successive generations of captive born fish. For me it was concerning enough to voice my views to my Senators. The Sec of the Interior, if the ammendment is passed as written in the house bill, is who will define what minimum quantities imported means for eaxh species approved. You can already theoretically purchase a permit for many otherwise prohibited species under the lacey act through the US Fish and Wildlife Service but im sure thats a process and a half to do and not free. I imagine the presumptive ban on importation of transportation probably wont be as good or as bad as we think it could be. I also tend to view it as a way to be able to quickly change the status of a species under lacey when deemed necessary. It seems like a well intentioned paved road to make keeping species less enjoyable and more expensiveand risky to participate in moving forward. Im also not a lawyer and will not enjoy having to stay well versed in the lacey act if these ammendments become law

@Sandra the fish rookie I use the ziss hatchery for the baby brine with the coop eggs and they run on a 3 day rotation here when feeding fry or conditioning adults. I just harvest at 36 hours and reset the hatchery. I have also used bottles before with the same timeline of results. I do not keep the brine shrimp in there longer than 36 hours. I am only using it for the baby brine size of the shrimp. if I keep it going without a reset they generally will crash between 40 and 48 hours up here. I believe they are fairly nutritious but like all foods not a complete food by themselves. I rotate the puffer fry from live brine and vinegar eels to daphnia, whiteworms, cherry shrimp, snails, and earthworms I have done adult brine shrimp accidentally in the dish version of a hatcher before. Those are alien looking level nuts. I would probably try and do a longer term brine shrimp colony using a 10 gallon + tank with the standard salt concentration to hatch and some sort of filtration. That set up would also need some sort of water changing routine and maintaining salinity if the plan was a colony of different sizes. I am not that level of dedication to them or the chemistry of salt water. I hatch live brine myself in a hatcher as needed. If I had a LFS and needed them occasionally while I was there I would buy brine shrimp from a store especially if they had mature brine shrimp and that was something I was trying to feed to fish. ** additional info ** After further review of some of my fishroom references on live foods : the common brine shrimp culture is essentially an 80 degree saltwater version of a daphnia culture. The more volume of water is better for culture stability whixh is why it is done outside in simething like those plastic kid pools in some areas of the country. The shrimp eat similar foods to daphina like spirulina powder, green water, yeast mixes, planktons. The key to brine shrimp appears to be to try and keep the salinity matched between the water you add and the water in your brine shrimp culture tank. Im not a saltwater guy but id assume that is the same for all salt water fish. That consistency should limit some stress on the brine shrimp and lower the risk of reduced production or a complete crash of the culture Harvesting adults normally starts around day 30 with a fish net of a coarse enough mesh that it catches the larger sizes of shrimp needed to feed while the smaller shrimp can pass through the mesh and continue to grow and eventually reproduce. I am gueseing if a consistent portion of the bigger shrimp were harvested every 3 days or so it could be a reliable long term culture.

@Vinm they look great. Its probably me just trying to find a difference where there might not be but does the male have a shorter "nose" than the female? In the photo, The distance of the eyes to the top of the mouth looks to be shorter in the top puffer vs the bottom.