Anyone Keeping / Breeding Xenotoca Doadrioi?

[Fish Folk]

Out of curiosity . . . is anyone on this forum keeping / breeding goodeids? We just got 8x Xenotoca doadrioi this weekend from a breeder in our fish club. They were originally collected in the Etzatlan region, Ameca / Magdelana basin and imported by the North American Goodeid Working Group for a convention back in 2014. They're a CARES priority list species. Kept at indoor room temperature - no heater. They like foods with greens in, but will eat just about everything. The males are very brightly colored. Greg Sage over at Select Aquatics has done a lot with these. It's hard to keep in stock though, because demand can quickly drain a breeder's supply. Females, it is reported, generally only drop 5-20 fry every 60 days. 

[shkote]

I keep a registered breeding colony of Xenotoca doadrioi, Ameca splendens and Zoogoneticus tequilas. The Xenotoca are my favorite goodeids. All of the goodeids will eat just about anything, but I have seen over time that too much protein (with exception of the tequilas which are presumed to be carnivorous) and not enough vegetation will result in babies born with bent tails. I'm assuming from growing a little too much/too fast. Babies are quite large to begin with, so I take care not to feed much other than herbivorous foods very often. I have not had any drop more than 8 babies at a time.

I feed mine mostly Xtreme spirulina flakes, and they graze off of duckweed, guppy grass and chew up Dwarf sagittaria when when they don't get 27 meals a day like they want 😄 I let mine breed seasonally. Right now with the temperatures at about 62-65 degrees, breeding slows down. In the spring time when temperatures start rising, they ramp up again. Enjoy your Xenotocas. They're beautiful and great little fish. 

[Struggle]

I have a group of Limia perugia, Boca de Cachon and a group of Xenotoca lionsi and really enjoy both of them.

[Fish Folk]

Wow, Lynze! Yours look fantastic. Thanks for the feedback. We've been seeing them enjoy Bug Bites Spirulina flakes, and Omega One Kelp Flakes. Both ingredients do have a pretty hardy mix of protein in. The breeder we got them from recommended tossing over duckweed for them to graze on. They do seem hungry all day long! Lights off right now on Eastern Time Zone, but we'll try to upload some photos here tomorrow. We have 2x mature males, 2x mature females, and four young ones -- one of which is starting to show a hint of red on the tail (probably 3x females / 1x male juveniles). Our temperature in the basement fishroom is hanging out at about 69-degrees Fahrenheit right now. 

I notice that in the photos you shared, the female in the top photo does not appear to have much by way of spotting coloration. Do some females have a speckled lateral line appearance, while others look more like female guppies? Or is this a maturity thing? Just curious.

[Fish Folk]

Hey Struggle -- that's really cool you're keep all of those! You know what, Fishbase.se needs a certified uploader photo for Xenotoca lyonsi (https://www.fishbase.se/summary/Xenotoca-lyonsi) -- maybe you could upload one of yours? Weren't they originally classified with the Xenotoca doadrioi and Xenotoca eisenii? 

Limia perugia looks fascinating too. Do you know if yours came from the Dominican Republic? We have friends down there, but they're way over on the eastern side of the DR. 

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

Aspiring Goodeid nerm here since 2017. Fish room is 1/3 puffer tanks and 1/3rd goodeid tanks, and 1/3 puffer food tanks of snails,shrimp, and misc other live foods usually. Currently have Characodon lateralis Los Berros and post holiday USPS shipping slow down will start out on Limia Perugia, Boca de Cachon. I did try the X.doadrioi but did not have success with them up here on the mountain. They were very seasonal, at 9200 feet in woods, breeding wise and I ended up moving them on when my ratio left me with all males and 1 female. Cool fish, kept the duckweed down, and ate all the plant based flake I could feed them for 2 years of learning. All the goodeids are interesting.  I have had the most longer term success with the Characodons and hopefully the limia moving forward.

 

[Fish Folk]

That's interesting! What is it about high elevation that affects aquarium parameters? What's your water like?  

[shkote]

It's a maturity thing. The lateral line spotting is more prevalent in young females and tends to fade as they age. Some I've seen it fade completely, but not all.  I have noticed the same in my older Amecas as well. I'll get some more photos of them when I get off of work. It's still lights out here as well and if I turn it on to take photos, they will want to eat again. I've never seen a fish go from 0 to 100 as quickly as these guys. I do a lot more water changes on their tanks because they constantly eat. I look forward to seeing photos of your new fish. Glad to see more goodeid nerms on the forum! 😁 

[Fish Folk]

Here’s some photos from this morning feeding after a water change. 

[Fish Folk]

Our water is soft, so we’ve jammed a bag of crushed coral in the tank, and added shells. We’re normally breeding  Rams and enjoying Discus, so this is a fun departure! 

[Pete]

Gorgeous fish! Can they be kept in a summer tub? 

[Colu]

Are they prolific fry eaters or do they leave them alone

[Fish Folk]

16 minutes ago, Pete said:

Gorgeous fish! Can they be kept in a summer tub? 

I’ve heard they buckle once temps go into upper 70s or higher. For us in Western Maryland, I doubt they’d do well since our tubs get hot through the summers (90-F). 

[Fish Folk]

13 minutes ago, Colu said:

Are they prolific fry eaters or do they leave them alone

Well, we just got ours, so not sure. Greg Sage suggests moving gravid females out to a separate tank if you want to keep most all the fry. However, we’ve read that if there’s several generations going in your starting group (I.e. some mature adults, and some younger ones) then they tend to leave fry alone. 

Edited December 15, 2020 by Fish Folk

[Fish Folk]

37 minutes ago, Fish Folk said:

I’ve heard they buckle once temps go into upper 70s or higher. For us in Western Maryland, I doubt they’d do well since our tubs get hot through the summers (90-F). 

(Awkward to quote my own comment 😂) but come to think of it, those big indoor tubs Cory has been working with might work very, very well for Goodeids! 

[shkote]

The only issue I have with predation is the they are quite weak at first and wiggle around more than swim. If they aren't able to hide right away, some may get picked off. Usually after about an hour or two they join the group as much better swimmers and my adults no longer go after them. 

I have never tried them in tubs, I would be able to attempt it in the spring and fall, but I also have some very hot summers. I find myself trying to keep goodeid tanks cooled down too much in the summer time just indoors. Once they reach about 76 degrees, mine become visibly stressed. I have a fan that I use specifically for keeping goodeid tanks cooled down. Lots of evaporation and top offs in the summer, and I keep the tops uncovered in mine. As long as temperatures are within range, they seem to handle temperature swings throughout the day without any issues. I thought about trying a group of them in a basement tub, but then I wouldn't really get to see them and they truly are an entertaining fish to sit and watch. 

[Joshua14]

I have been keeping them for I think 3 years or so. Xenotoca lyonsi to be exact. They are definitely one of my favorite fish. Everyone in this thread has mentioned how they will eat anything. I fed mine duckweed for over a year until I had no duckweed left in my fishroom. When I feed them regular food I can actually hear them hitting the surface of the water and smacking their lips. I do notice predation on the young but as someone mentioned above here, I also think it's due to the young being so vulnerable, and horrible swimmers in the first days. I have them currently in a 20 gallon tank with java moss that covers the entire bottom of the tank and is about 3in thick. I really need to upgrade their home here soon. As I have around 20 of them maybe more in that tank. 

[Struggle]

20 hours ago, Fish Folk said:

Hey Struggle -- that's really cool you're keep all of those! You know what, Fishbase.se needs a certified uploader photo for Xenotoca lyonsi (https://www.fishbase.se/summary/Xenotoca-lyonsi) -- maybe you could upload one of yours? Weren't they originally classified with the Xenotoca doadrioi and Xenotoca eisenii? 

Limia perugia looks fascinating too. Do you know if yours came from the Dominican Republic? We have friends down there, but they're way over on the eastern side of the DR. 

Hi Fish Folk, that’s a good idea on sending in certified photo, I’ll have to do some research on what all that entails when I get some time on my hands. Thank you for suggesting that!

Yes I believe the Lima are from the Dominican Republic, there is a very good write up on them on Greg Sage’s page.

[Fish Folk]

Greg is awesome! Enjoyed meeting him at our fish club when he came to give a talk on selective breeding. 
 

 

[Wingman12r]

12 hours ago, Colu said:

Are they prolific fry eaters or do they leave them alone

I haven't found them to be in my group. I keep them with dwarf water lettuce and narrow leaf anacharis.

[Wingman12r]

6 hours ago, Joshua14 said:

I have been keeping them for I think 3 years or so. Xenotoca lyonsi to be exact. They are definitely one of my favorite fish. Everyone in this thread has mentioned how they will eat anything. I fed mine duckweed for over a year until I had no duckweed left in my fishroom. When I feed them regular food I can actually hear them hitting the surface of the water and smacking their lips. I do notice predation on the young but as someone mentioned above here, I also think it's due to the young being so vulnerable, and horrible swimmers in the first days. I have them currently in a 20 gallon tank with java moss that covers the entire bottom of the tank and is about 3in thick. I really need to upgrade their home here soon. As I have around 20 of them maybe more in that tank. 

Great looking Lyonsi. 

They are definitely heavy fry predators. Colony breeding has resulted in 0 to 2 fry from each drop surviving. In the future I will be pulling gravid females and raising fry separately.

[Joshua14]

4 minutes ago, Wingman12r said:

Great looking Lyonsi. 

They are definitely heavy fry predators. Colony breeding has resulted in 0 to 2 fry from each drop surviving. In the future I will be pulling gravid females and raising fry separately.

Oh I agree completely. While I think I've had more than 2 or 3 survive. My father was pulling the females and putting them in a sperate tank and he was getting 15-20! He probably has around 100 of them.

[Andy's Fish Den]

Currently I have to goodeids I am working with, Ameca splendens and the Blue Tail goodeid Ataeniobius toweri. I have both in 40 breeder tanks that have a lot of plant cover. After I expand/ remodel my fish room here after new years I am hoping to get a couple more goodeid species, I was thinking of the Lyonsi or doadroi as one of the groups. 

[Fish Folk]

If we're successful, we may end up moving our colony of doadrioi up to a 40 gal breeder. I think they'd do better, as you describe, in a larger tank with lots of plant cover. Would love to see some photos of your splendens and toweri.  

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

On 12/14/2020 at 9:50 PM, Fish Folk said:

That's interesting! What is it about high elevation that affects aquarium parameters? What's your water like?  

7.0 ph 300 TDS (community well up here) nothing crazy on ammonia nitrate nitrite lots of plants and easy green both tabs and liquid as needed. In theory my barometric pressure is 29% of sea level which probably helped me unintentionally end up with a school of 250 panda corys out of a group of 6 in a heavily planted 55 gallon 3 years ago. I believe the lower pressure helps with encouraging spawning when fish initially arrive since it really tends to kick off those first 7 days in quarantine. With the mountains and woods impacting my natural sunlight for all tanks, the sun cycle likely makes my fishroom a bit more seasonal than others. Pretty fun to learn up here.