A COLOSSAL IDIOT walks into a pet store....(an illustrated tail - intentional misspelling- of woe)

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Oh the path to good pet parenting is paved with many evil obstacles. 

I went to the local big box store- as one does when you have a mixed pet household- I have 2 cats and lots of fish- so it's convenient to come here to pick up a couple of things. Sadly on this day I had a little more time to kill- I'm normally a shopping ninja- in and out within minutes- just grabbing those things I intentionally went in for- list in hand if necessary. I was meeting someone for lunch so instead today- I moseyed. 

BAD. FRICKIN. IDEA. 

One of my rules is to totally AVOID (DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER!)- looking at the Bettas. 

Personal side note: Twas not long ago that I swore off Betta keeping FOREVER because of how hard a fish they are to keep- only breaking my intended oath several months later and very recently by buying Koianu- my Koi male Betta pictured here: 

They are not easy fish to keep. All my other fish and tanks do well but Betta keeping has eluded me- so for their sake- I stopped trying. Koianu has actually been doing well- however soon it is to tell. 

Anyhow, as you may have guessed. I made the mistake of looking. All of us I know have done that and seen sick, dying or dead Bettas. On this particular day here in sunny pre-fall there actually weren't that many Betta on display. Making the percentage of these sad Bettas rather on the very high side. I first spotted the one and only Glo Betta fish- a sad flourescent yellow female. She was so clamped and her fins so short and colorless (seems she has some red coloring on her fins given the chance) that she looks more like a glo worm than a fish. Her container was terribly dirty...she must have been on the shelf a long while- I could see what is possibly her slime coat floating in the container too. She was listless and unmoving. UGHHHHH. 

THEN I saw a purple and white female Dumbo Betta. She was trying her darnedest to swim normally, fighting to get to the bottom then floating up and ultimately giving up the fight, laying on her side....what seemed to me a clear case of swim bladder. 

I looked at all the other fish and there were a couple more with similar states. Because girls are usually last picked ESPECIALLY when they are sick I thought about my home situation. Could I care for them properly in QT? And if they both made it, did I have somewhere they could permanently go? The answer ultimately was yes. I have plenty of QT tanks, and if they both made it, one could stay with me in my Flex9 with Guppies and Endlers. The other could go to my Mum's tank- and she would likely gladly take her in- whichever she was. So I picked them up and took them to the counter. 

It was easy enough to get a discount on them- for 50% off after asking nicely. I could have pushed it but I'd rather them go home with me and cost than stay there. So because I had time I ran home and set them up in QT then ran back out for lunch. 

This is the poor GloBetta:

This is the dirty container the poor Glo Betta was living in: 

This is the poor, tiny, Dumbo Betta (bottom right pic is a little bit exagerrated due to reflection but she was a little bent looking) but you can see she's swimming a bit sideways: 

So I went to lunch. Well drove that direction....the person I was meeting texted me JUST as I was getting into the parking lot of the restaurant- they informed me they were delayed and were leaving in 5 minutes- instantly giving me a 30 minute wait window....

....something was already weighing on my mind as I drove over there and I was talking myself out of the guilt I felt....then suddently this time window opened and my first and only thought was.....go get the others....go get the others...

Yeah. One of those stories. 

1 in particular made me want to go back. A white Twintail Halfmoon male Betta. He was on his side at the top of his cup. I didn't take him when I got the females because I thought well, of the 3 the boy would be more likely to sell even sick than the girls.. Honestly I thought I was just lying to myself but one has to be practical as you cannot save them all- but I thought really? Could I not? Well. I said to myself. I have another QT tank at home- I could easily take care of one more. 

You know what I did next. I drove back to the box store. Went straight to the Bettas for the white one- but someone else held me up. A red male Crowntail. Also totally on his side at the top of his cup. Which is weird since they always sell very well. Ok, think- which one do you take. What a crap decision- "which one do I send to its death!" screams in my head. Argh! I avoided looking at ANYONE else while standing there. I convinced myself everyone else was fine if I couldn't see them. But these 2 needed someone. Which one though? I only had 1 QT. Or did I? I walked down the tank aisle.....what could one do.....I see a 2.5 gallon glass tank. 20 bucks not bad for a quick QT tank but I don't like using glass tanks for QT...but wait...I was using a plastic QT for my plant "extras". Light. Bulb. 

Picture if you will, a grown adult, reusable shopping bag in hand, inside that bag is a 2.5 gallon glass tank, and inside that is 2 cups, each holding a sick or dying male Betta fish- that the said adult paid full price for because they were not going to ask AGAIN for a discount and just wanted to get the heck out of there to get to lunch.....yes that same adult walking with this reusuable bag into none other than a SUSHI restaurant. 

*INTERMISSION*

So this ridiculous human being makes it home. Both fish are still alive. This is the sad state of affairs these poor little guys were in when I got them home (they are both on their sides in their cups (sorry again for pic distortions this is as good as it got:

This was the plan: Get the plants out of the plastic QT and throw them in the 2.5 glass tank (it's smaller than the plastic and looks nicer anyway for something more permanent like an extra plant tank). THEN quickly wipe out the tank, fill it with 1 gallon of reserved water change water, get out the other QT set it next to the other, fill it with 1 gallon of reserved water (these are 3 gallon QT but I figured they're going to be floating at the top anyway and I only had a couple of gallons of pre-made water which by the way has Indian Almond Leaf Tea water mixed in, perfect for all my new Betta friends), grab my 2nd back up air pump of the day and set up air stones, grab my 3rd and 4th handfulls of Guppy Grass from a healthy tank to put in and my 3rd and 4th IA leaf and put those in, 3rd and 4th doses of Aquarium Salt- done. Plop and drop the males into their new spaces and pray to whoever they might have a chance of making it.....

This is the white Twintail Halfmoon, he's on his side in both pics, this is just after I placed him: 

This is the red male Crowntail Betta after I placed him- pretty much in the same position as the Halfmoon: 

I have 4 QTs now. Two on my desk near my Flex9 and 2 on my kitchen table...until further notice...

So here I sit. With 4 more fish that I never intended to have but couldn't help but help because I was in the position to do so. I keep walking around my house calling myself an idiot but at the same time glad I did it. They may not make it, I don't know but at least I'm giving them a chance even though I think I'm a crap Betta keeper- I will try. I've got plans for all 4 if they're lucky enough to live through this disaster. I'm holding off on medicating- though the IAL is anti-bacterial and the salt will help so technically they are "medicated" but not anything too harsh- I want to give them a chance to perk up before I medicate already clearly weakened fish. Maybe my friends @Colu or @Odd Duck could give me their thoughts- but I think for now I'm going in the right direction because....

When I came back from lunch to begin setting up QT for the boys I of course went to check on the girls. The GloBetta still not looking hot- I think maybe her gills are inflamed but hard to tell because of her coloring- however she'd perked up some. And even better...the Dumbo female is doing a WHOLE lot better....

...so wish this idiot luck fellow NERMS cause here I go....

Edited September 29, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX
Typos are lame

[Colu]

Salt and Indian almond leaves is a good start  I would also do is add some vitachem to there food try getting them to eat some live or frozen brine shrimp or daphnia and a good quality betta pellet to try build them up it sounds like one of them might have a swim bladder issue you can do Epsom salt baths 1 table for 2 gallons for no more than 15 minutes for a couple of days  I would wait till they are a bit stronger before doing that @xXInkedPhoenixX

[KatGoneFishing]

I'm not sure if this is better or worse than driving two hours round-trip for a $30 betta off of FB marketplace because he was being kept in a half gallon 'tank', but there's something about bettas that just sucks you in. If I had more tanks available, it would be much more difficult for me to resist going home with a betta every other week. 😅

They're definitely in better care with you than they had been, so here's hoping they rally and pull through!

[PineSong]

I’m rooting for the little guys! You can’t help but love them.

[TheSwissAquarist]

Hat's off to you for doing the decent thing!

[Flumpweesel]

So glad we don't use those tubs to sell Betta's here they are generally just in with the other fish, there is a big box pet type store 10 mins walk from my house and next to a pub. I dread to think what could lead to if they were being illtreated.

Good luck with the new fishes

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

So just an update. They all made it overnight- the boys don't look any different- they look terrible and are just floating along the top of their tanks. The girls are acting much better. The GloBetta seems to have unclamped some which is a good sign. ALL FOUR ATE A PIECE OF BLOODWORM! 

Edited September 30, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX
to clarify

[PineSong]

That is great to hear!

[Katherine]

Oh man! 😂 What did you get yourself into? I'm glad they've all made it so far.

[meadeam]

I really wish the entire hobby would stop keeping bettas in cups.  I see even experienced fish keepers doing it when they breed for profit.  I go back and forth between wanting to keep a few betta in a divided tank, or avoiding them altogether because I don't want to perpetuate the production and mistreatment of this fish.  

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Thanks everyone for your support of this wackadoo adventure- I appreciate the words of encouragement @PineSong @TheSwissAquarist @KatGoneFishing (I probably would have done that too) @Katherine @Flumpweesel (it would be cool if more stores at least would do a betta sorority more often) and of course @Colu for your advice as always though it looks like I can hold off on the epsom soaks SO FAR.

@meadeam I agree, but I'd at least have less of a problem with it if these big box stores wouldn't act like they are the place to go for pets (which they do an "ok" job for cats and dogs but not IMO so much for the other critters)- if they would train their people how to at least change water in the Betta cups and look for signs of illness. If they'd stock less of them then they wouldn't have issues with long term "residents" and treat them more like animals with lives than stock or product. I have to say even my LFS where I got Koianu my resident Betta kept their Bettas in even smaller cups than the big box- but they also have far less of them and hopefully sell faster. 

So after having eaten this morning because they are in small QT I tend to do a small water change every day to clean the bottom/check in, add some salt and etc. As mentioned the boys not doing a whole lot better than yesterday, they pretty much float at the tops of their tanks- they'll move when prompted but it's in a frantic sort of way. 

The white Halfmoon Twintail male is more upright at least than he was yesterday though still staying at the top:

The red Crowntail male is the one of the most concern right now for me. He's still alive, glad he ate but isn't really changing much yet:

The GloBetta girl is a quirky one- a lot like my last GloBetta female who made me swear off Betta keeping cause she broke my heart. These bettas aren't like other bettas I've kept- they have some sort of weird ethereal intelligence I can't put my finger on. Anyway, she's less clamped and regaining the bright red coloring in her tail:

The Dumbo female is doing the best of all of them still- I don't see any body damage and she's swimming and acting normally today- no signs of the potential swim bladder symptoms I saw yesterday:

The girls I'm treating normally- they're in a bright warm area of the house. The boys since they're clearly more sick and stressed are covered with a towel along the tops of their tanks to reduce any sounds/drafts/bright lights. Here's hoping things look better tomorrow!

[Katherine]

On 9/30/2022 at 1:45 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

I have to say even my LFS where I got Koianu my resident Betta kept their Bettas in even smaller cups than the big box

Oh man, one of ours has them in a row of little tanks, and you can see the auto water change system working, very small tanks, but probably 5-6 times the water volume as the cups at the big box. Another had them in various 10g tanks with other fish. They had a bunch of beautiful red ones last time we were there. My 5yo desperately wanted one, but I told her we need to wait until she's old enough for her own tank.

[Odd Duck]

@Coluhas said exactly what I would recommend. Keep doing the water changes like you are.  The best thing you can do for them is pristine water with the salt and IAL.  If you can get them to take a bit of Daphnia (frozen for now, of course).  Their “shells” are the best bet for clearing up a clogged swim bladder opening and can sometimes even move worms along.  Too soon to deworm but plan on doing that at some point.  Expel-P would be first step.  Normally I would work in Prazi-Pro between the Expel-P, but for these kiddos that are so delicate right now, I would do them separately.  So you’re going to be doing deworming over the course of several weeks.  I wouldn’t do anything less than 8 weeks of QT for these guys so they get all their deworming done before finishing QT.  If they start to look much stronger you might be able to work the Prazi-Pro in between the Expel-P doses.

For now, you’re doing everything exactly right.  Don’t beat yourself up if you lose one.  When you start with very sick, damaged fish, the odds are pretty long against them.  Fish hide their symptoms extremely well, so by the time we see symptoms, the disease process is well on its way to disaster.  Much harder to bring them back from the brink than in a relatively easy species like dogs or cats.  If they don’t make it, be kind to yourself since you at least tried.  Far better than the pet store staff (I’m aware sometimes they aren’t even allowed to change the water as often as it needs) and far better than dying in a tiny cup.

Sending positive vibes for your little betta crew.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Odd Duck

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Hi all, just a small update. 

So a few days later now everyone alive and everyone eating but GloBetta girl is hit and miss- she has now seemingly declined despite the initial color gain has lost color again and really just sits on the bottom of the tank- sometimes she will eat sometimes she will not. I'm not really worried about Dumbo girl- she is consistently active and (voraciously) eating, no body damage and no signs of any swim bladder issues as I'd originally seen in her cup- so that's good. The Twintail Halfmoon male (white) is better but still mostly floats along the top of his tank- though upright- and he will swim frantically across the tank when startled or swim towards food aggressively, even towards the bottom of the tank though it seems to take effort- he may have some sort of swim bladder issue but I still cannot tell. The red Crowntail male is the one of most concern still- though he eats well he is not able to stay upright- he has discovered staying in the corner in a curved position keeps him upright- so if eating gets him out of the corner I usually spot him there shortly after. 

Due to a very early shift I wasn't able to check on them this morning or do a water change but I will when I get home. Hoping they are all still with me and I get to see some improvement! 🤞

These are pics from the 1st of Oct:

(yes, there is a reflection of a skull in top left corner pic- Halloween approach-eth....)

Edited October 3, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX
1 more thing.

[TheSwissAquarist]

We’ll at least she’s eating from time to time and regaining her strength.

Maybe try feeding BBS?

[Odd Duck]

Any luck getting them to eat frozen Daphnia for more bulk going through?  Don’t do peas, that’s a bit of an old wife’s tale since they are carnivores, not omnivores or herbivores.  The goal of the bulk is partly to physically remove some worms in fish that might not be strong enough to handle dewormers.  It also can potentially kind of “scrape” open clogged swim bladder opening.  It’s not really abrasive as such, but the bulk of the Daphnia shells going through can sometimes help open up a narrowed swim bladder opening.

It wouldn’t be unheard of for them to have some neurological issues from ammonia toxicity.  That can take time to clear and just making sure they have clean water is the treatment.  They could also have some gill burning from high ammonia levels.  Again, time and clean water is the best treatment.  If you can manage to trigger any flaring (would be surprising this early in such sick fish), try for a peek at gills if you can.

Expel-P isn’t significantly absorbed into their systems, but almost anything can tip the balance the wrong way with fish that are so Ill.  Use with caution but don’t wait too long.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@TheSwissAquarist I haven't tried BBS yet on them as only the Dumbo girl seems up to "hunting" food, plus in a way I'd like to try and monitor what and how much they are eating. I will give purple girl some BBS when I feed my other tanks that usually on fridays. 

@Odd Duck as it usually happens I have everything but what other people advise- so I haven't tried daphnia yet- I have to get to the LFS as the big box stores have been woefully lacking in the frozen foods lately (I'm lucky to find BBS or Bloodworms lately- though they might have freeze dried). I have adult frozen brine but those are usually rejected by my other fish but do you think that will be similar? They're rather large so I'd have to maybe cut them up a little. 

I have Expel and Paracleanse. I think I could start Dumbo girl on that fine but what do you think about the others, any opinion on when I should?

Edited October 4, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 10/4/2022 at 3:28 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

only the Dumbo girl seems up to "hunting" food, plus in a way I'd like to try and monitor what and how much they are eating. I will give purple girl some BBS when I feed my other tanks that usually on fridays. 

Good work!

I’m starting to think there should be another forum for this kind of thing!

[Odd Duck]

On 10/4/2022 at 8:28 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@TheSwissAquarist I haven't tried BBS yet on them as only the Dumbo girl seems up to "hunting" food, plus in a way I'd like to try and monitor what and how much they are eating. I will give purple girl some BBS when I feed my other tanks that usually on fridays. 

@Odd Duck as it usually happens I have everything but what other people advise- so I haven't tried daphnia yet- I have to get to the LFS as the big box stores have been woefully lacking in the frozen foods lately (I'm lucky to find BBS or Bloodworms lately- though they might have freeze dried). I have adult frozen brine but those are usually rejected by my other fish but do you think that will be similar? They're rather large so I'd have to maybe cut them up a little. 

I have Expel and Paracleanse. I think I could start Dumbo girl on that fine but what do you think about the others, any opinion on when I should?

Bloodworms are also fairly high in chitin, and usually very tempting for bettas.  So at least one meal a day with bloodworms.  If you can get them to take a few betta pellets once a day, too, that would be good to balance out the diet.  Some bettas will take freeze dried daphnia and some won’t.  If you can’t get frozen you can try freeze dried if that’s all you can get.  If they will take any Daphnia, then alternate it with the bloodworms.

I would honestly probably give them all a couple more days of excellent water before doing the deworming.  We could potentially cause more harm by trying a deworming too soon.  Let gills heal up a bit more from any ammonia burn they might have had.  Then I would start with Expel-P for a couple weeks in a row (as long as no adverse effects are noted).  Then consider adding a ParaCleanse treatment.  Your overall treatment will take longer to get all the doses done, but it’s likely to be a bit safer.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Odd Duck thanks for that. I've admittedly just been feeding them a thawed frozen bloodworm up to 2x a day. I've been using aquascaping tweezers to target feed them all as 3 of the 4 aren't really up to hunting (the Dumbo is the only one I'm feeding regular foods as she's willing and able to chase them). I'm concerned about starting meds on the Crowntail male- what makes you think Expel P or Paracleanse might be the best med to start with? I was wondering if Kanaplex might be better- at least for the Crowntail- first because I'm not sure really what is wrong with him...more on that in a second....

Yesterday I stopped at a different big box and of course no frozen but I got freeze dried "Betta dial a treats" I'm sure most of us have seen the trio of freeze dried foods (Mysis, Bloodworms, Daphnia) so I figured I'd try that. 

I got home after my shift and started their feedings and water changes.

The white Twintail Halfmoon male ate a piece of freeze dried Daphnia fine (with the guidance of the aquascaping tweezers). He also easily took a bloodworm this morning. He's doing a bit better than he was at the beginning- his fins/tail are usually spread wide, he stays mostly upright (as opposed to on his side in the beginning). He does at times swim sort of normally but seems to struggle a little bit with it- like if I drop a piece of food seems he has a hard time getting to the bottom to eat it so I usually pick it up. I also sometimes catch him, when he stops actively swimming, slightly going onto his side. He mostly hangs out along the top of the tank. He's doing his best to act "normal". 

The red Crowntail male is the one of most concern for me. While he's very slightly better off than he was from day one he's not showing any consistent improvement- but I do give him credit for still being here and it's not yet even been a week and the fact that he does eat. He ate a piece of daphnia with the guidance of the tweezers, and ate a couple of pieces of bloodworm this morning. He still hangs out mostly in the corners of the tank as he has discovered that's the easiest way for him to stay upright- otherwise he goes sideways still. 

The GloBetta female- she's a mystery to me and probably the 2nd one I'm most concerned about in rankings. While at first she regained some red coloring in her tail it has all but been lost. She hangs out at the bottom of the tank, mostly- but yesterday after shift I checked on her and she was swimming casually around the tank. So I tried to feed her some daphnia and a few floating pellets. She chased them but not agressively- kind of slowly- so I don't know if that's just her limited ability or her personality- she seemed to have eaten something- I did witness her catch a piece of daphnia but seemed too big so she let it loose. This morning I tried to feed her a bloodworm and this is how it's been going: She looks at her food but does not take it from the tweezers- so I leave it on the bottom of the tank near her. Sometimes she nibbles at it sometimes she doesn't- I wasn't able to wait to see this morning if she ate them but I guess I may find any leftovers when I check later during water change time.

The purple Dumbo female- I'm not concerned about her at all. She's always swimming, always seeking attention when I'm near the tank- and a voracious eater. Of the 4 I believe she's not going to be a problem. She ate the daphnia last night and begged for her morning bloodworm, I also gave her a few flakes of Xtreme Krill which she chased and ate. 

I'll probably give it until Sunday or Monday and assess the medication options/situations. Here is a pic of all 4 of them yesterday: 

 

[Odd Duck]

@xXInkedPhoenixX Sorry, I should have been more specific.  The Expel-P is the first dewormer I would use, mostly because it has less systemic effect on the fish.  I would already be dosing with the Kanaplex.  

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Odd Duck I think I will be starting the Kanaplex on 3 of them. I'm holding off on Dumbo girl, she seems fine and I hate medicating when there is seemingly nothing wrong but she's in for a long QT. As usual thanks for your support and advice. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Fish Folk]

You had me at, "A COLOSSAL IDIOT..." 🤣 🤣 🤣

[PineSong]

Following along and grateful for the updates. You're doing good work!

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Ok kids, I got home tonight to feed them. All 4 ate pretty well on the freeze-dried Daphnia- here is the individual updates. I have actually started with Kanaplex treatment on all of them today....

We'll start with the best news first, Purple Dumbo Girl doing well still. She ate quite a few pieces of Daphnia tonight. I did a 50% water change on her 2 gallon QT tank, added some salt- then decided to add the Kanaplex. Mostly because at this point (she was the last to be fed, changed and treated) everyone else was getting medicated and I want to make sure she continues to do well. Kanaplex doesn't have any ill effects on biologicals so it's not going to hurt her or the tank- and it will likely be the only med I'll give her- and only one round and done. Here she was tonight:

Next we have GloBetta girl. Like I've said before, she's a total mystery to me. She was casually floating about her tank when I got home an improvement since -early this morning she refused to come off the bottom of the tank- or allow me to witness her eat! She seems to have regained some color in her tail tonight- she is a very moody little one- or sick- but she baffles me. She is sadly in my smallest QT- only around a gallon or a bit less- I need to go to the big box and grab another keeper and put her in something bigger and only use that one for plants- I forgot to look yesterday- totally my bad. Anyhow she ate pretty good actually I put quite a few pieces of daphnia in her tank and she actually ate off the surface so I was happy to see that. I turned down the airstone in her tank as she seemed bothered by the flow it created- so maybe that will help. She was treated with Kanaplex (salt and IAL continuing)- hopefully that will help perk her up. This was her actually moving about tonight: 

The white Twintail Halfmoon male is still showing improvement bit by bit. He was still hanging out at the top of the tank when I came home but was pretty active as I fed and changed 50% of his tank water (adding salt and Kanaplex). He ate the daphnia rather eagerly and had quite a few pieces. The Indian Almond Leaf water doesn't allow me to see their true colors but I have a feeling if he makes it through this he's going to be a white irridescent beauty, he's got quite a few colors in that body and tail(s) of his, I see streaks of irridescent blue and purple. I medicated his tank with Kanaplex. Here's a peek at him while he was concentrating on his meal:

Sadly last but not at all least is this little red Crowntail male. He's trying so hard. Still has the same issues I've been talking about, stays mostly in a corner to stay upright but so eager to interact and eat. He actually did pretty good catching most of the daphnia that I guided towards him. He's not able to swim too well so he's not a great hunter- but if I get the food close enough he is able to eat well enough. I think he had a pretty decent sized meal. He is why I started Kanaplex tonight on all of them. I saw this kind of bloated and pale part of his body, I checked and it seems to be to both sides and pretty even, not asymetrical. I didn't notice it before but it's so hard to see him clearly so I admit to not knowing how long it's been like this. It's in the back part of his body so I'm not sure- intestinal area? @Odd Duck @Colu what do you see? I kind of hmm'd about which med to use and having had good experience with Kanaplex in the water column with past treatment on other fish (including my beloved pop-eye patient) I just went with it. I have pretty much every other med including Metroplex which I thought about for a minute too. The pic is pretty decent showing that I'm not seeing any pineconing, no fin rot that I can see- his tail and fins look pretty good- but maybe this is why he isn't able to swim right- something making him bloat. So yes, started Kanaplex after doing a 50% water change with some salt and of course continuing the IAL. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX