Comment on Nitrate

[anewbie]

I want to open the discussion on this article:

https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/nitrate

because I believe it is incomplete and misleading. Vaguely i believe that i remember an article that indicate nitrate level above 20 was bad for cichlid and for some more delicate species levels above 10 can be detrimental but unfortunately i cannot locate the reference. The other thing lacking is the discussion on organic vs inorganic nitrate and the effect on the aquarium.

[Guppysnail]

I’m not a scientist so can only comment on what I see with my tanks.  My lemon blue eyed bristlenose breeding pair and all their offspring get long poo when my nitrates hit 40 +. Under 40 short dash poo. So I’m guessing their bodies are working harder to process out the extra stuff in the water or it is somehow affecting how/how much their liver and kidneys work. So 40+ causes some change in my gang. What that change is I do not know. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

My nitrAtes are ALWAYS at 40 in 3 of my 5 tanks. I must have some tough fish because nobody seems to be complaining.

[anewbie]

Folks the problem with your comments is that first it doesn't consider organic vs inorganic nitrate and second it doesn't consider relative impact on overall health of the fish. I have fishes with 40 nitrate but if the nitrate were 10 would they live twice as long and would the fishes be healthier? This is the question. Also tangent but related does 40ppm of inorganic nitrate effect the fish different than 40 ppm of organic nitrate. 

It would be more interesting to hear if you have multiple tanks with the same species and over a 5 or 10 year period (depending on species) if you have observe long term trend. Most common aquarium fishes are unlikely to show an issue in a year with 40 or even 80 ppm of nitrate but what about after 10 years ?

 

[KrazyJohn]

On 4/20/2022 at 8:24 AM, anewbie said:

I want to open the discussion on this article:

https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/nitrate

because I believe it is incomplete and misleading. Vaguely i believe that i remember an article that indicate nitrate level above 20 was bad for cichlid and for some more delicate species levels above 10 can be detrimental but unfortunately i cannot locate the reference. The other thing lacking is the discussion on organic vs inorganic nitrate and the effect on the aquarium.

I don't see why the article is incomplete or misleading.

The article doesn't say it is safe for the fishes it says the following: nitrate is considerably less toxic.

Less toxic to me at least means it is still toxic but less toxic then ammonia and nitrite. I don't see how it could be misleading really.

It also says the following : However, little research has been done to determine how toxic nitrate is to all of the different animals we can keep in our aquariums.

I think that covers up pretty much the fact that the article is incomplete to you

My understanding of the Aquarium CO OP community is that it is meant to share and help each other by answering questions, sharing our experience or bring new information's.

I think that instead of criticizing the work of others, your energy could be better spent bringing more information to the discussion that would add value to it.

Regards,

John

 

[Minanora]

I think the article was meant to be a guide for beginners best practice. Not so much an in depth read. Generally these articles are short enough that a beginner will read it in is entirety and gain enough information to help them keep a healthy aquarium. It provides information without bombarding them with data that is not really interesting to, or understandable by a beginner or non-nerm.

Going into the different sources of nitrates, I've not much to add about this. Nitrate made by bacteria in the tank, from your water supply, or brought in with fertilizer. I have just started thinking about the value of each source for plants. So I can't add value to this discussion in that regard.

I can say that I try to keep nitrates below 40 on all of my tanks. I do note behavioral changes in fish, primarily my corydoras, when nitrates are above 40ppm. However the two corydoras that experienced the 100+ppm spike last year are the most sensitive to nitrates over 40ppm. They hide and are less active when the levels go up above 30ppm.

[Jack.of.all.aquariums]

On 4/20/2022 at 8:56 AM, anewbie said:

I have fishes with 40 nitrate but if the nitrate were 10 would they live twice as long and would the fishes be healthier?

On 4/20/2022 at 8:56 AM, anewbie said:

Most common aquarium fishes are unlikely to show an issue in a year with 40 or even 80 ppm of nitrate but what about after 10 years ?

Maybe is the only fair answer. I'm not sure there is any way to actually answer these questions definitively. 

So you kept nitrates at 10 but what other things were you also removing that could have had an impact? Hormones, phosphates, tons of various micro nutrients, etc. There are just too many variables, especially in a home aquarium to be able to say it was specifically organic or inorganic nitrate that was affecting fish health or longevity.

[Scapexghost]

What does your reference have over the co-ops article? Both are just someone's opinion based on anecdotal evidence. No one is willing to put in the time and the money to conduct a study to determine how nitrate effects every aquarium fish species. It would take years just to determine a single species' tolerance. In the end, you have to make your own judgement as to how you want to run your tanks.

[Patrick_G]

@anewbiewhen you say organic or inorganic nitrate are you referring to naturally occurring nitrate in fish waste vs nitrate added through a fertilizer?  
 

My dad is a Biochemist and his pet peeve is people using the common definition of the word organic in scientific discussion. Don’t get him started 😆

[Scapexghost]

On 4/20/2022 at 7:56 AM, anewbie said:

Most common aquarium fishes are unlikely to show an issue in a year with 40 or even 80 ppm of nitrate but what about after 10 years ?

Imagine trying to keep two fish tanks where every variable was the exact same except nitrate levels for 10 years. Such a thing would be impossible. Even if you could the results would be far from conclusive. Maybe fish have high tolerances to nitrate at lower temps or pH. Even if someone devoted their life to this issue they wouldn't find a complete answer. Everything on the internet on this subject is pure conjecture.

On 4/20/2022 at 8:58 AM, Patrick_G said:

@anewbiewhen you say organic or inorganic nitrate are you referring to naturally occurring nitrate in fish waste vs nitrate added through a fertilizer?  
 

My dad is a Biochemist and his pet peeve is people using the common definition of the word organic in scientific discussion. Don’t get him started 😆

All i could find was that inorganic nitrate is better for treating heart disease, not sure if that is relevant though.

[anewbie]

On 4/20/2022 at 9:58 AM, Patrick_G said:

@anewbiewhen you say organic or inorganic nitrate are you referring to naturally occurring nitrate in fish waste vs nitrate added through a fertilizer?  
 

My dad is a Biochemist and his pet peeve is people using the common definition of the word organic in scientific discussion. Don’t get him started 😆

@Seattle_Aquarist can provide more insight here. I believe organic is indeed biological waste; I think fertilizer could add multiple types of nitrate of both inorganic and organic.

 

The reason i started this thread is because of the level of nitrate mentioned in the article. My understanding is that anything over 20 ppm can be fairly harmful to young fishes and many soft water cichlid but at this point it is hersey.

[Scapexghost]

On 4/20/2022 at 9:18 AM, anewbie said:

@Seattle_Aquarist can provide more insight here. I believe organic is indeed biological waste; I think fertilizer could add multiple types of nitrate of both inorganic and organic.

 

The reason i started this thread is because of the level of nitrate mentioned in the article. My understanding is that anything over 20 ppm can be fairly harmful to young fishes and many soft water cichlid but at this point it is hersey.

At least in livebearers, fry don't seem anymore vunerable to nitrate than their parents.

[Guppysnail]

On 4/20/2022 at 11:18 AM, anewbie said:

harmful to young fishes

I lose more BN pleco fry when nitrates hit over 40 than at 20. I’ve only lost CPD fry to what I thought might be nitrate at 60-80 though. Not certain there is a correlation though.  Guppy fry are the king kongs of fry I’ve dealt with nothing seems to deter those cuties. 

Edited April 20, 2022 by Guppysnail
Missed a word

[Odd Duck]

I can tell you that Jack Dempsey fry can tolerate ridiculous levels of nitrates.  I was stupidly overloaded with well over 1500, yes, 1500 (probably closer to 1600), Jack Dempsey fry between 2 clutches and only 4 tanks (75 G, 55 G, 46 G, and 29 G).  I’m certain they didn’t have the growth rate they could have had without the excess nitrates.  I can’t tell you the number (well over 80) because I did strip tests a few times then blocked it out of my mind and gave up because I was already doing as much water changes as I could physically handle at 50-60% twice weekly using only a siphon and rolling barrels at that point.  [Head deeply inserted in the sand.]  I’m also certain they grew well, grew fast, and I swear had growth spurts at every water change.  I was selling and rehoming as fast as possible, but could not begin to keep up with growth rates, even selling to a wholesaler, at swap meets, on-line, to several lfs, etc.

I also had bronze cory fry that apparently hitched from a tank either as eggs or hatchlings, from my 20 high plant holding tank to my 20 long planted tank and went through the initial ammonia, nitrite, nitrate surge following set up before I even realized they were in the tank.

Anyway, some fry (and eggs?) at least, are more tolerant of high nitrate than you might expect.

[Patrick_G]

On 4/20/2022 at 8:18 AM, anewbie said:

can provide more insight here. I believe organic is indeed biological waste; I think fertilizer could add multiple types of nitrate of both inorganic and organic.

 The CDC and NIH sites says organic nitrate is generally only the medicinal kind, like nitroglycerin one might take for heart disease. 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK547928/

I don’t want to derail the discussion, but there is a difference between the vernacular use of the word organic and the scientific world of organic chemistry, ie compounds that have carbon bonds. I think it’s fine to use the word in both connotations, but there is a grey area in this type of hobby based discussions. 

[modified lung]

@Patrick_G got it right. Technically, you won't find organic nitrate in water. They are more of an atmospheric thing.

But I think what we're actually trying to talk about is "dissolved organic nitrogen" which are things like amino acids, amino sugars, nucleotides, urea, etc. that enter the water as or attached to organic waste products or fertilizer.

Dissolved organic nitrogen (DON) won't show up on any ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate test kit unless the molecule is destroyed by direct UV light or metabolized by some organism first.

DON isn't much of a concern in a balanced aquarium because it will all be consumed by microorganisms or syphoned out if you gravel vac.

If your aquarium is not balanced, DON won't directly harm your fish over time unless it's in the form of a very high "total suspended solids". What's more likely to harm fish is the bacteria, zooplankton, ornphytoplankton blooms that high DON creates and how those can affect other aspects of water quality. The exceptions are things like urea but that's a completely different issue than nitrate.

So, in short, both organic nitrate and DON aren't very relevant when talking about nitrate levels from your test kit.

Edited April 20, 2022 by modified lung

[nabokovfan87]

On 4/20/2022 at 6:13 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

My nitrAtes are ALWAYS at 40 in 3 of my 5 tanks. I must have some tough fish because nobody seems to be complaining.

I think it's critical to mention the source of nitrates. Dosing, or just not doing regular water changes. those two differences lead to dramatic impacts on behavior.

[anewbie]

Ok I found a couple of papers that indicated that nitrate level over 10ppm can have long term harmful effect to inverts. and freshwater fishes. Hum. It seems that ph plays a role on the impact of nitrate on the fishes; i'm just finding abstracts on line not the full papers.

Edited April 20, 2022 by anewbie

[modified lung]

On 4/20/2022 at 1:47 PM, anewbie said:

Ok I found a couple of papers that indicated that nitrate level over 10ppm can have long term harmful effect to inverts. and freshwater fishes. Hum. It seems that ph plays a role on the impact of nitrate on the fishes; i'm just finding abstracts on line not the full papers.

Do the papers report 10 ppm in nitrate (NO3) or nitrate-nitrogen (NO3-N)?

Edited April 20, 2022 by modified lung

[anewbie]

On 4/20/2022 at 4:32 PM, modified lung said:

Do the papers report 10 ppm in nitrate (NO3) or nitrate-nitrogen (NO3-N)?

NO3 but they used mg and not ppm so it is 10mg of NO3; however i wanted a full paper that has been published in a major journal (i.e, peer reviewed) to see the details not just the abstract and haven't found that yet.

[modified lung]

On 4/20/2022 at 2:40 PM, anewbie said:

NO3 but they used mg and not ppm so it is 10mg of NO3; however i wanted a full paper that has been published in a major journal (i.e, peer reviewed) to see the details not just the abstract and haven't found that yet.

mg/L and ppm are basically the same thing. What's the name of the paper? I might have access.

[anewbie]

On 4/20/2022 at 5:13 PM, modified lung said:

mg/L and ppm are basically the same thing. What's the name of the paper? I might have access.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0045653504009993

 

2nd paper (which is better)

“Histopathological Changes and Zootechnical Performance in Juvenile Zebrafish (Danio rerio) Under Chronic Exposure to Nitrate”, António et. al.

Edited April 20, 2022 by anewbie

[modified lung]

On 4/20/2022 at 3:23 PM, anewbie said:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0045653504009993

It does say "10 mg NO3-N/L"

Nitrate-nitrogen (NO3-N) is a measurement of only the nitrogen (N) in nitrate (NO3). We have to multiply the NO3-N concentration by 4.43 to get the NO3 concentration.

So the 10 mg NO3-N/L = 44.3 mg NO3/L

Here's the whole paper (PDF download):

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.golias.net/akvaristika/docs/Nitrate%20toxicity%20to%20aquatic%20animals.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiC4O_55aP3AhXATTABHUaKBd0QFnoECAYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3oBbU2qvk08YI_--6GEauG

Although, this other paper says that rainbow trout fry are negatively affected at as low as 2.6 mg/L NO3-N after over 100 of exposure which is only 11.5 mg/L NO3. There are very likely other species that are just as sensitive.

(PDF download):

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://envirolink.govt.nz/assets/Envirolink/1207-ESRC255-Updating-nitrate-toxcity-effects-on-freshwater-aquatic-species-.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiC4O_55aP3AhXATTABHUaKBd0QFnoECBUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0-YCU6rCLXsCw83UO0o0-R

I totally agree with you btw. I think nitrates should be kept as low as possible just in case. But my main focus is the fish and not the plants. That co-op article seems much more plant focused which is fine IMO.

[CT_]

On 4/20/2022 at 10:29 AM, Patrick_G said:

The CDC and NIH sites says organic nitrate is generally only the medicinal kind, like nitroglycerin one might take for heart disease. 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK547928/

I don’t want to derail the discussion, but there is a difference between the vernacular use of the word organic and the scientific world of organic chemistry, ie compounds that have carbon bonds. I think it’s fine to use the word in both connotations, but there is a grey area in this type of hobby based discussions. 

To expand on this.  I think every aquarium article is referring to the 4 atom inorganic molecule nitrate (NO3-).  The class of organic molecules containing nitrate residues called "nitrates" is practically infinite and not too common in nature AFAIK.  Without being specific about which molecule I don't think you can make too many generalizations about them, at least not in an aquarium context.

Edited April 21, 2022 by CT_

[Patrick_G]

On 4/20/2022 at 7:21 PM, CT_ said:

To expand on this.  I think every aquarium article is referring to the 4 atom inorganic molecule nitrate (NO3-).  The class of organic molecules containing nitrate residues called "nitrates" is practically infinite and not too common in nature AFAIK.  Without being specific about which molecule I don't think you can make too many generalizations about them, at least not in an 

So the Nitrate that forms in our tanks from fish waste or the compounds in liquid ferts are both N03-?