BettaQueen124 Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 (edited) I was watching some old livestreams Cory did on guppies and I heard him mention how guppy breeders used to introduce different diseases to their strains. They would let them die back and build back up so the offspring would be resistant to those diseases. I have some logistical questions about that for anyone who can answer. How does one find and introduce diseases? Are medications used when the fish are fighting the disease or does that negatively impact the fish's resistance? After the colony has beaten the disease, do the fry of successive generations become less and less resistant? Can these methods be used for other livebearers such platies and endlers? Thank you for looking! Edited January 12, 2022 by BettaQueen124 Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GardenStateGoldfish Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 I wouldn’t necessarily recommend doing this intentionally because some diseases out there may be very hard to treat. I think mixing strains is a good way to increase hardiness so it’s not so deeply like bred, adding in fresh genetics here and there, it is true that fish will build tolerance from Certain diseases they are exposed to in their areas but I wouldn’t recommend intentionally infecting your stock with some disease to see how it goes because you may lose everything. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BettaQueen124 Posted January 12, 2022 Author Share Posted January 12, 2022 (edited) @GardenStateGoldfish When Cory mentioned this, it was in reference to how weak many guppy strains have gotten due to inbreeding. He said this was a common practice that many long-time guppy breeders used to strengthen their stock. He mentioned that breeders today have gotten away from the practice because it takes a very long time and a lot of dedication, but that it was a responsible thing to do for the longevity and hardiness of the strains. I'm sure that this is something only to be attempted by an experienced breeder, but I doubt anyone ever did it to just "see how it goes". Thank you for the tip about adding different genetics to diversify the gene pool! If a person is trying to keep a strain pure, would that cause any issues? Edited January 12, 2022 by BettaQueen124 Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 My recall of Cory's mention was that a disease hits the tank of the breeder, there's a die off, and the survivors are stronger for it. Breeding pure strains and intentionally doing this would be very extensive. As a buyer and someone who's run head-first into a weak strain of guppies this would be great. In a perfect world it should be done by the big breeders. But I can't begin to imagine the financial loss these breeders would take in doing it. Interesting question though, it's got me thinking, thanks @BettaQueen124. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BettaQueen124 Posted January 12, 2022 Author Share Posted January 12, 2022 @Chad yeah I think the reason no one really does it anymore because it took so much time and effort, but I definitely think the breed is worse off for it. I hear horror stories all the time about paying $400 for a pair and they don't make it past a few weeks. I think hardiness is something breeders should think about, but these days it only seems to be about selling as many as they can as fast as they can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 @BettaQueen124 I completely agree with your whole statement. Sadly, with the bad of it too. It's practically baked into guppies that there will be these problems. As Cory has mentioned, if you're a breeder and you create a new strain that's all the rage you know the first few people you sell it to will start breeding them and selling them. In two months they'll be selling fry and undercutting the years and effort you put into creating that strain. Now add another 6 months to a year to strengthen the strain? It's likely too much to ask someone who's only interested in the business side of the biz. Now, as I write this I'm positive it can be done, just a better mind than mine needs to figure it out 🙂 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppysnail Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 (edited) I made mutts of sorts to try to strengthen mine. I don’t have issues with disease or parasites so I can’t tell if they are more resistant or not but they thrive and have no health issues to date and no visible birth defects. I got several females of the blue color i wanted but with slight different colors and patterns from different sources that were pregnant and kept them by themselves. I got a boy I really liked from an entirely different source with complete different look that was more purple than blue different fin age etc. and allowed him to only breed with the daughters. From this I took his offspring and introduced them to the rest of the original virgin daughters of the females to create the colors I wanted. That’s as far as I have gotten with my blue line. Edited January 12, 2022 by Guppysnail 4 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BettaQueen124 Posted January 12, 2022 Author Share Posted January 12, 2022 @Guppysnail do mind me asking if you got your original stock from local sources? Thank you so much for responding! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levi_Aquatics Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 I’d think the way to get the diseases would be to go to a fish store and find sick fish then expose your stock to that fish. I think the hobby would benefit a lot if more people did this. As I recall from that video, they would also expose the fish to lower temperatures to make them more cold tolerant. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BettaQueen124 Posted January 12, 2022 Author Share Posted January 12, 2022 @Levi_Aquatics yeah I think you're right about the cold resistance! It seems like they could also benefit from being adapted to softer water. They seem to do just fine when they go from soft water to harder water, but not the other way around. Someone should make a mega strain 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levi_Aquatics Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 That would be great @BettaQueen124 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppysnail Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 On 1/12/2022 at 10:41 AM, BettaQueen124 said: @Guppysnail do mind me asking if you got your original stock from local sources? Thank you so much for responding! Yes. I went to several lfs i did not want any 2 directly related. I did almost this with my orange line but all the girls were one source Some were very inbred prior to my apparently. I never got a batch from this color that did not have at least 1 with a birth defect to severe to survive long term so I discontinued them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GardenStateGoldfish Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 On 1/12/2022 at 8:59 AM, BettaQueen124 said: If a person is trying to keep a strain pure, would that cause any issues? It wouldn’t if you partnered up with other breeders, it’s common practice in the goldfish breeding scene anyway to swap a few with other breeders of your line to keep things healthy, like if You and I were both breeding purple Moscow guppies as an example, I’d send you 20 and you would send me 20 every few years to add in fresh genetics, although going for specific fish like that is what does overtime weaken the fish, so if you were going for a specific fish type you need to find someone breeding the same thing, if your just doing general fancy guppies/mutt guppies, just mixing the gene pool is fine since your not going for a specific trait 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beardedbillygoat1975 Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 I’ve been bringing in new blood to my lines over the last year. I’ve been more successful with my Neocaridina then with my livebearers. Some like the blue Hawaiians there’s no other line so I think next time I see a really incredible blue guppy (maybe at ALA in 2023?) I’ll grab a trio. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalmedByFish Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 Hang on, guys. I think you don't hear yourselves. You're talking about intentionally causing animals to suffer. Justify it all you want - there are good arguments to be made regarding the benefits to the offspring. But you're still talking about intentionally causing suffering. Shift gears. The question is: How do we bring about disease resistance ethically? Having varied genetics, instead of inbreeding, is an excellent starting point. 3 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 It is an excellent starting point. ALSO regarding cold tolerance and soft water tolerance, (which leads to disease tolerance by reducing other stresses) one trick is to VERY gradually alter your parameters. Across generations. As you do so, you choose the strongest and healthiest to breed the generations which will be raised at the next level. This is a major undertaking. It takes years. I also remember that video by Cory, and yeah, it is a HUGE job. However, I can do this on a small scale with fish I order from a hard water state (looking at you, Texas) and within 1-2 generations the fish are robustly breeding in my conditions. The key is to initially match the home conditions and then gradually shift across months and months. I honestly think this is what has happened to these "weak" strains--they have become adapted to water that is drastically different, and then we plop and drop, assuming all will be well. Even drip acclimation is too fast for a pH and hardness shift from Texas (or Thailand!) to Seattle. They will adapt, but it will take a while. Go SLOW. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 Another way to keep your fish line stronger is to put them outside in summer tubs! The temperature goes up and down, the light changes, etc. I used heaters in my summer platy tubs for insurance, but the temperature ranged from 73 to probably 85. There may be some weak fish that don't survive, but at least they had some fun in the sun before the end. 😜 I'm intentionally mixing two different strains of platys. That plus having the parents give birth outside, plus not being toooo careful with the water chemistry, is hopefully producing robust little fry that can survive plops and drops and lots of different temperatures. I think if you wanted to expose fish to diseases and select the strongest fish while causing the least amount of suffering to the weakest, you'd have to be ready to humanely cull the fish that get sick. That doesn't sit well with everyone, but it's at least less suffering than letting the disease run its course. 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PineSong Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 I would not be comfortable with purposely introducing diseases into my fish tanks for the sake of "survival of the fittest" genetic improvement. I've lost a majority of my store-bought guppies in QT, but I don't believe they are genetically weakened, and here's why: Experienced breeders report that once fry are born in your tank, they are much more disease resistant and healthy. And when you have 3+ generations born in your tanks, they are just as healthy as non-livebearers. I don't believe disease resistance is genetically modified in 2 generations. The problem is that big breeders supplying stores are not practicing good animal husbandry, in order to maximize profit. If genetically identical fish were kept in good conditions, they wouldn't die at the drop of a hat--as they don't when they are born in your tank. If keeping diseased fish untreated so that the survivors would be stronger and produce stronger offspring was so effective, why aren't guppies actually superfish by now? There are certainly plenty of them being shipped out sick--they are the 'survivors' of whatever the heck is going on at the breeders. 4 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BettaQueen124 Posted January 13, 2022 Author Share Posted January 13, 2022 Thank you to everyone who replied! I appreciate hearing everyone's thoughts and opinions on this subject. It sounds like the best course of action is varying genetics and shifting parameters over time. I know that the second and third generations are supposed to be much hardier once they've adapted to your water, but I was more interested in ways of making them able to survive any water parameters or diseases they encountered anywhere. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PineSong Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 Actually, thinking about what I said above, I wish I had said "in order to make a profit" rather than "in order to maximize profits". I don't think big breeders are making too much money and I don't want to sound crabby about it. Although we take it for granted, it's really quite miraculous that for the price of a sandwich or a fancy coffee, I can buy a beautiful little gem of a fish that will produce literally thousands more little gems just like it, and that has been shipped to my town in the middle of nowhere, from someplace half way around the world or all the way across the continent. Frankly, I'd pay 4x the price (and I have) for that fish if I knew it had a better chance of staying alive in my tanks. Luckily, all the fish I did pay $8 or $10 for have in fact stayed alive, because I bought them from hobbyists and they were healthy whether they came from many states away or the next county over. Sorry that my first response was so cranky! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levi_Aquatics Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 This is the stream where Cory talked about this topic. The part pertaining to this thread starts at 55:30 although there is a bit relating to it before. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitecloudDynasty Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 (edited) It's true the guppy gotten weaker, but I believe the problem lies in all of us..the breeder, the wholesaler, the lfs, then us. For guppies the breeder are blinded by color and all they want is a nice color fancy fish disregarded health. Just because you picked up a different line from a different breeder doesn't mean he's not having the same problem as you. Wholesaler is moving too many fish and too fast. The longer they sit the less money they make. Same goes for most lfs. I know some lfs don't even do water change. I have seen decent fish comes in and fall apart a few days later. As for us I believe we are trying to control to much, ph, temp....ect Stress is the biggest problem, going from different water and environment. The only stress i recommend with everything else the same, is temperature swing. That will make the fish or their offspring hardier. The most healthiest guppy will be the fish born in your water and used to your setup. Edited January 17, 2022 by WhitecloudDynasty 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suz Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 On 1/12/2022 at 8:15 AM, Chad said: @BettaQueen124 I completely agree with your whole statement. Sadly, with the bad of it too. It's practically baked into guppies that there will be these problems. As Cory has mentioned, if you're a breeder and you create a new strain that's all the rage you know the first few people you sell it to will start breeding them and selling them. In two months they'll be selling fry and undercutting the years and effort you put into creating that strain. Now add another 6 months to a year to strengthen the strain? It's likely too much to ask someone who's only interested in the business side of the biz. Now, as I write this I'm positive it can be done, just a better mind than mine needs to figure it out 🙂 I so agree with you. I wanted some guppies but didn’t see the point of throwing money out the window. Got some platys instead, and am quite happy with them. They’re cute, active, and create a happy tank. Some day guppies will be back on my agenda. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 On 1/17/2022 at 10:19 AM, Suz said: I so agree with you. I wanted some guppies but didn’t see the point of throwing money out the window. Got some platys instead, and am quite happy with them. They’re cute, active, and create a happy tank. Some day guppies will be back on my agenda. When I first started with guppies, I bought 5 males and no females. It was in a 9 gallon and there was bullying/aggression issues amongst them right away. I got a bigger tank and tried raising fry. It worked, but wow did I have a lot of deaths. In a snippet of a PrimeTime Aquatics vid from a while back Jason mentioned that he just couldn't keep guppies. That they always die on him leaving him wondering if he was the problem. It struck a chord with me since that was exactly how I felt. I now believe guppies can be kept but you really need to know your stuff. Start slow and have a well-matured tank to make a success of it. Take a look at what @Guppysnail is doing to get an idea of where you need to be to make a go of it. Oh, and I now have Platies and am a big fan of them. Other than slowly killing off my snails, they're great. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 @Chad can you teach my platies how to kill my snails? 😝 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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