Why are UGFs not very popular?

[tonyjuliano]

4 minutes ago, JAG said:

why couldn't a mixture of "Safe T Sorb" and "Seachem Flourite Red", be used as the UGF substrate, instead of gravel? 

If you use the Flourite, you don't need kitty litter, its both in one.

I'll show you how to use this setup in an aquarium with a UGF plate (as apposed to a sump), follow this post....

And for clarification, here is the "layering":

1. Bio-Media of Choice (rings, balls, whatever fits under plate.  I use Seachem Matrix)
2. Filter Plate
3. Laterite or Seachem Flourite Red (only need 1/4" or so)
4. Substrate/Gravel of choice (1.5" to 2" will do)

Edited June 8, 2021 by tonyjuliano

[JAG]

 

[Jeff]

I think cleaning / maintaining them when you have substrate on top is the biggest issue; at least for me. 
 

But, that's the beauty of this hobby - there's a million ways to skin a cat. Different strokes for different folks. 
 

They're not bad if you use them properly. 

Edited June 8, 2021 by Jeff

[aehageman]

1 hour ago, tonyjuliano said:

The clay kitty litter is for the "basket type" filters (intended for larger vessels, combined with an iron source).

For aquarium use, you need a single product that combines the ionization of clay, with added iron.  Due to the size constraints this single product can be either Laterite (hard to come by anymore) or Seachem Flourite Red. Both are clays - high in iron.

The kitty litter has no iron.

In a UGF plenum setup, layers are as follows (bottom to top):

1. Bio-Media of choice
2. Filter Plate
3. Clay/Iron Source (Laterite or Seachem Flourite Red - only about 1/4" is necessary))
4. Substrate of choice

so I just need kitty litter something with iron, like lava rock?
As the iron is the vitamins for the kitty litter.

[aehageman]

1 hour ago, JAG said:

I am reading that people are saying the plain "Special Kitty" cat litter, from Walmart, is breaking down and getting mushy ~ they are now using "Safe T Sorb", from Tractor Supply, which is also a pure baked clay product, which holds up better.

I don't have a sump, to utilize Dr. Novak's basket, but why couldn't a mixture of "Safe T Sorb" and "Seachem Flourite Red", be used as the UGF substrate, instead of gravel? 

I think I will email Dr. Novak and ask him ~ I'll let you know if he replies ...

Thanks, my wife literally just left for the tractor supply store.  
We have a partial bag of special kitty.  I will test both.

I believe in one of the videos from Dr. Cat litter, He said it can be used as the substrate, but that he does not like to see the cat litter, so he does not use it that  way.

 

[tonyjuliano]

2 minutes ago, aehageman said:

so I just need kitty litter something with iron, like lava rock?
As the iron is the vitamins for the kitty litter.

No…. You need a baked clay that also is rich in iron.  Laterite fits that description, so does Flourite Red.  Lava rock does not.

The kitty litter is used in the basket methodology (along with an iron source) because it is so inexpensive, and a generous amount is required.

Used in an aquarium with UGF plate, the amount required is small - and space is limited, so either the Laterite or Flourite Red is a better choice.

[aehageman]

4 minutes ago, tonyjuliano said:

You need a baked clay that also is rich in iron

Guess I missed that part of the videos.!

[tonyjuliano]

54 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I think cleaning / maintaining them when you have substrate on top is the biggest issue; at least for me.

Used as a slow flow plenum, no cleaning or maintenance is required.  It’s literally “forever”.

Edited June 8, 2021 by tonyjuliano

[tonyjuliano]

29 minutes ago, aehageman said:

Guess I missed that part of the videos.!

He has a lot of videos out there, showing many implementations.  Big baskets for ponds and sumps, large canister filters, etc.

You need to just concentrate on the few he has up that utilize UGF plates.  In a smaller environment he doesn’t advocate for the use of kitty litter.

One of the many criticisms Dr. Novak gets is his lack of “cohesion” in regard to the information he puts out. You won’t find much in the way of printed info, just scattered YouTube vids, and even those are hard to follow in any type of sequence.

I have the luxury of many years spent in wastewater treatment, so it was easier for me to piece together.  The concepts are all the same.

Edited June 8, 2021 by tonyjuliano

[OnlyGenusCaps]

50 minutes ago, tonyjuliano said:

No…. You need a baked clay that also is rich in iron.  Laterite fits that description, so does Flourite Red.

From a scientific standpoint, there are number of dubious claims the good Dr. makes.  I've been reading the thread and hanging back.  No point in ruining the good time of anyone having fun playing with their tanks.  But there seems to be a bit of confusion between a couple of folks trying to do the same thing, so I thought I'd see if this bit of information helps.

I think there is some confusion stemming from the fact that laterite is not a fired product.  It is a high iron, largely tropical soil, typically very clay heavy.  Once you fire it, or another clay product for that matter, you dramatically reduce the iron, or anything else, that is labile.  When you fire it the minerals become part of the glassed matrix. 

Like I said, loads of shaky claims from the good Dr.  He's a Dr. like Dr. Oz is.  But I'm glad people are exploring what works for them. 

[tonyjuliano]

Yes, Laterite is unfired, and rich in iron.  Flourite Red is a fired product, but produced by a process known as “Reduction Firing”, which leaves much of the iron content soluble.

Oh, and for the record, “Dr. Oz” has a Ph.D. in Ichthyology, with post doctorate studies in both Limnology and Aquatic Microbiology, pretty decent credentials to back up his theories.

Most planted tank enthusiasts dislike him, as he has been known to have little patience with their somewhat blind adherence to the “status quo”, and counter arguments lacking in scientific demonstrability.

What really seems to have pissed people off, we’re his statements that “plants are unreliable for aquarium bio-system sustenance” (which I think is absolutely true), and that too many people in the hobby had large tanks teeming with plants, and like 3 fish (which I know is true).

On a more practical note, much of what he says is very familiar to me.  The process he is adapting to aquaria is exactly the process used in high-end wastewater management systems.

 

[OnlyGenusCaps]

1 hour ago, tonyjuliano said:

Oh, and for the record, “Dr. Oz” has a Ph.D. in Ichthyology, with post doctorate studies in both Limnology and Aquatic Microbiology, pretty decent credentials to back up his theories.

And the real Dr. Oz is a cardiac surgeon and professor at Columbia.  He is still well known for spouting crap.  If it is formal titles that concern you - I hold a PhD in Ecology & Evolutionary Biology and have done post-docs in ecosystem ecology with a focus on N community level metabolism.  Though, I don't think that should really matter.  The argument and support should speak for themselves, regardless of the source. 

1 hour ago, tonyjuliano said:

Most planted tank enthusiasts dislike him, as he has been known to have little patience with their somewhat blind adherence to the “status quo”, and counter arguments lacking in scientific demonstrability.

I'm not a planted tank enthusiast, so I couldn't possibly speak to that assertion.  The point I am trying to make is that much like Dr. Oz, Dr. Novak has useful information that he provides.  However, both also tend to wander into the fringe that has little to no basis in scientific support, and in some cases is directly contradicted by the data that exists.  I think the general approach you seem to be taking of cautioning against dogma is a good one.  I just think it should be applied to Dr. Novak's as well. 

[tonyjuliano]

14 minutes ago, OnlyGenusCaps said:

in some cases is directly contradicted by the data that exists

I’d be interested in seeing any evidence you can provide of this.  Kindly share?

[OnlyGenusCaps]

5 minutes ago, tonyjuliano said:

I’d be interested in seeing any evidence you can provide of this.  Kindly share?

This is going down the exhausting road of people expecting others to have ready references at their fingertips for the slightest comments made on a casual interaction.  It's clear you have your beliefs.  I'll leave you to them. 

[Daniel]

Once a thread begins to veer from kind and helpful over to demands for evidence I start thinking about locking the thread. I am very close to locking this one.

[tonyjuliano]

13 hours ago, Daniel said:

Once a thread begins to veer from kind and helpful over to demands for evidence I start thinking about locking the thread. I am very close to locking this one.

Lock it if you wish...

I made no "demands", just a polite request for information.  Please excuse my possible impertinence, but the moderation of this forum is baffling to me.  Little scientific debate, no matter how civil, is allowed it seems.

Back to the subject at hand!

Like I stated earlier, Dr. Novak's postulations are controversial.  They go against much of the previously accepted theories that are prevalent in this hobby.  This is compounded by the fact that he seems to be a somewhat grumpy guy, with little patience, and the information he makes available can be distributed in a hap-hazard and confusing manner.

But...

Science backs up most of what he states, IMO.  The stated goals of his methods are these...

• Greatly reduced maintenance, with very few water changes
• Large livestock sustainability
• Easy plant maintenance

In the end, the only way to prove if this is attainable is to "go down that road", and see for oneself.  To me, those three bullet points are worth their weight in gold.

[JAG]

2 hours ago, tonyjuliano said:

Lock it if you wish...

I made no "demands", just a polite request for information.  Please excuse my possible impertinence, but the moderation of this forum is baffling to me.  Little scientific debate, no matter how civil, is allowed it seems.

Back to the subject at hand!

Like I stated earlier, Dr. Novak's postulations are controversial.  They go against much of the previously accepted theories that are prevalent in this hobby.  This is compounded by the fact that he seems to be a somewhat grumpy guy, with little patience, and the information he makes available can be distributed in a hap-hazard and confusing manner.

But...

Science backs up most of what he states, IMO.  The stated goals of his methods are these...

• Greatly reduced maintenance, with very few water changes
• Large livestock sustainability
• Easy plant maintenance

In the end, the only way to prove if this is attainable is to "go down that road", and see for oneself.  To me, those three bullet points are worth their weight in gold.

"Once a thread begins to veer from kind and helpful over to demands for evidence I start thinking about locking the thread. I am very close to locking this one."

OH WOW, I know the "Rules of the Forum" ~ I didn't think this thread "Veered from Kind and Helpful to Demands" in any way!!

I thought everyone was very "Helpful"!!  I was so interested and excited to rediscover UGF, which I hadn't used since the 1990's!!!

I was forewarned about UGF being controversial, BUT I can see that the hobby needs to stop it, since there is no profit to be made! 

~ Cory even has an excellent video, from Nov 30, 2015, titled "Undergravel Filter Good or Bad?" and he loves UGF!

I am new here and I was hoping this Forum would be a place to learn and share new ideas, not another example of "censorship/ cancel culture"   :o(    Very Very Sad!!

I am so sorry the topic of UGF has been snuffed out and censored, once again !

Thank you, to the posters, who opened my eyes and introduced me to Dr. Kevin Novak and the "Slow Flow Plenum"! Thank you!

I will continue to learn more about this, on my own ~ I have empty 29 and 55 tanks, to experiment, on right now ~ 

Just take a look at Dr. Novak's fish and plants, in his tank below ~ I think his teachings and examples speak volumes for themselves!

 

[tonyjuliano]

28 minutes ago, JAG said:

I will continue to learn more about this, on my own ~ I have empty 29 and 55 tanks, to experiment, on right now ~ 

@JAG
No need to “go it alone” just yet!  It doesn’t appear that this thread has been locked.

If you don’t mind, please continue your participation in this discussion, I would like to see your experience moving forward.

In the meantime, I’m getting ready to document my first Anoxic Plenum build…

HERE

Edited June 9, 2021 by tonyjuliano

[BenA]

7 hours ago, tonyjuliano said:

Lock it if you wish...

I made no "demands", just a polite request for information.  Please excuse my possible impertinence, but the moderation of this forum is baffling to me.  Little scientific debate, no matter how civil, is allowed it seems.

Tonyjuliano

Take it as nothing more than as a 'salvo above', a warning shot, not necessarily to you in person (although directed at you) but to all who participate.

As for me, a beginner in the hobby everything I read is a bonus, the problem that I have is that at the end I don't know what should I follow and believe and what is nothing more than old wives tells so come on guys, keep on teaching me/us. I hope that I am intelligent enough to draw my own conclusions.

Thank you all.

[tonyjuliano]

32 minutes ago, BenA said:

Take it as nothing more than as a 'salvo above', a warning shot,

Yeah well, it's not the first time this has happened on this forum.  The "moderation" here lacks intelligence and seems to be completely arbitrary, IMO. Restricting intellectual discourse, non-aggressive discourse, serves no member here.

Anyhow, I don't want to hijack this thread any further, it is what it is.

Let's get back to the discussion at hand, which is all things to do with UGF.

[tonyjuliano]

Ok, for those interested, I've started to document my slow-flow plenum build, here is the latest posting...

 

[DShelton]

On 6/7/2021 at 8:24 PM, aehageman said:

Laterite seems to come from India, so I reached out...  It seems to be their sand!  Maybe after some research, my friend will mail me a bag of dirt from his yard?  If we are lucky.

I just realized lava rock from the store is high in iron.  Could be why my tanks do so well so easily? Besides me that is LOL!
I am looking at tumblers and other mechanical ways to smooth the lava rock and now to make it pebble size!!
The point of the laterite is the iron?

Yes, the laterite in the plenum config (i also use it in Walstad tanks) is an iron source. Brightwell aquatics still sells it. Last I bought came from them via Amazon.

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

@DSheltoni have the brightwell laterite and it’s great. Works great easy to use form as a powder. Brightwell use it as part of their system for planted tanks. @Bentley Pascoehas mentioned it in some of his planted tank videos. I’ve used it under aquasoil and as part of dirted tanks and may go down the road with a UGF. 

[Cory]

This topic is now locked. A warning was handed out, and we'll go to ban if necessary. Remember this community is to be kind to one another. Agree to disagree and move on, or move out.