mountaintoppufferkeeper

@Vinm That is a great looking setup and great information on the process of getting a pair. I also tend to view the larges as the female in my trio based off of how they behave when showing courtship behaviors. I am curious if you see any difference in the head shape or proportions of the mouth to eyes etc between the two? I haven't noticed any in my group but there are other pao that seem to have slight differences in these ratios. If you have one of those wyze type cameras I do use those to do a bit of surveillance on my groups and have used the IR function to see their activities at night. I did try the ziss tumbler with the palustris eggs but it did not work for me; it was my first time trying so likely just my inexperience with the set up but they all went bad quickly for some reason. After that experience I have not attempted to tumble puffer eggs again. I have had success using the coop specimen container with methylene blue (MB) at a concentration of a light blue tinge to the water. I put 1 drop in a container with some tank water in another container and siphon that solution through the airline to hopefully sanitize it before I use to siphon the eggs; I then siphon a little of the MB into the container then start the siphon through the airline with water from parents tank. For the Pao cf palustris, I take a long pair of tongs and use those to hold and guide the already primed airline into the cave and siphon the eggs out of there and into the container. I put that container floating/hanging inside a tank that I run at 74-76 degrees with a rigid airline tube bubbling 2 bubbles per second or so to maintain a little water movement. Once they hatch out I put a cube of polyfilter in to help maintain water quality and remove the remaining MB then feed them in there for 14 to 21 days before releasing them into a grow out tank. I may just be lucky but I have not had one egg go bad using that container method.

Me too - the guy with 3 adult, twelve 3 month old, and probably 75 1 day old Pao cf palustris

Beyond the pea puffer, Carinotetraodon travancoricus, i do not know of one. Redeye puffers of Carinotetraodon like the irrubesco and similar are generally on the smaller size. I haven't personally kept any redeyes (yet) but would consider them to be more of a 20 long or bigger puffer based on the reported adult size of 2" to 2.5".

Bigger is bigger volume wise. I haven't ever done a single pea puffer and defer to those who keep them for better advice. If I had a 5 that needed a resident i would try a single pea puffer and rearrange the plants etc occasionally to keep the puffer interested in the tank. This is an older video Cory did on the Pea puffer

Went ahead and pulled about 50% of the spawn today. The male has actually adjusted his strategy a bit he now will sit on the eggs and block the airline from sucking them up instead of actively attacking it. This is the 4 month old pao cf palustris and this spawn with fry actively hatching in the coop specimen container the background.

vinm123 read my mind when they were suggested on the wednesday stream. These guys were already being prepped for shipment. Tetraodon miurus : 5 wildcaught adolescents 1-1.5" added yesterday to a 26x18x12 (+/- 20 gallon) colony growout tank with blasting media substrate. The tank is an overflow sump system with their 20 gallon and three 26x18x15 (+/-28 gallon) tanks. Based of the palustris fry growth rates my guess is these are 1 or 2 months old. The color variation and ability to change color to communicate or camouflage is pretty cool to see. 2 larger solid colored seem to stay together. The tank is 73-76 degrees fahrenheit 7.0 ph 300tds. Daphnia, pond snails, ramshorn, blackworms, scuds, all in their tank to start. Whiteworms and smaller earthworms added to welcome them. They are very active and have eaten earthworms and scuds to this point. The three smaller of the group remain darker toned. This is the above congo puffer camouflaged into the substrate (blasting media) The more orange toned congo really wants to go play with the dogs in the snow Whatever happens this should be fun to raise them to adults and learn their group dynamics vs the Pao species I am working with .

I once had a diy co2 set up go full open overnight and woke up to 18 bucktooth tetra deaths. Worst fishroom morning ever. ****Not death but one that fakes it occasionally **** This is 3 minutes later. He just ate his body weight in worms this morning . This is 3 mins earlier he held this for 15 minutes. He also has always enjoyed floating belly up since I got him in 2018. Weird guy.

Nice set up

I think we all know my vote 😄 Besides puffers, id say some of the loaches sumo,panda, unique color forms of "khuli", etc

@Beardedbillygoat1975 I don’t really feel qualified to recommend one species over another to anyone else even highly skilled keepers like yourself but my short answer is I recommend all of them. I have yet to meet one I didn't enjoy keeping. I have kept a few puffer species and made some observations that might help narrow it down. I think any puffer can easily decide to kill everything in its tank at any moment so for me the tank with a puffer or puffers is theirs and the rest is allowed in it at their discretion. I have some puffer knowledge that might help decide though. I personally pick the species that I think I will enjoy watching and caring for. If I am being totally honest, I give extra consideration to anything that is believed to be near impossible to breed in the aquarium or thought to be impossible to keep as a group. More of a personal challenge of sorts to break the code. My favorites are Pao puffers but that mostly started because I rejected the common belief that the ambush puffers couldn't be kept in a colony and were solitary sedentary bumps on logs in all circumstances. I was fully prepared with plans B and C if I was wrong in my view. My goal is to bring 6 individuals to start a colony of all the species I keep including puffer species (when available /possible) and let it all sort itself out over time down to a pair etc. I really enjoy my hairy puffer group (3 bought in 18-19 together as a group of 3) and of course the Mekong river puffers (Male Female, Female trio down from 6 purchased adults plus regular spawns and F1 adolescents) are great. The puffers I am keeping: 1.) Pao baileyi Hairy Puffer 50gallon Aquasky light at 30% 77F 7.0 300 TDS planted + caves a. My favorite puffer I haven’t yet bred b. 3 puffer colony (“likely” : Male, Male, Female) I have kept four total over the years. One individually and my current 3 as a colony. The guess on the male vs female breakdown is just based on behaviors and who controls what cave. No successful spawning yet so not 100% sure. My personal experience is that most are way more active and personable than people think and even more so if kept with other hairy puffers. I base that off of removing one of the three to their own tank and it becoming less active and responsive to me until moved back with the pair. When they are hungry they will come out and swim the glass, make eye contact with me, look at the top, look back at me, then repeat until I give them worms or similar food. Normally the smallest (likely male) is the most active and always following me around the room by swimming midwater and being generally curious what I am up to. The other two are generally happy to keep an eye on me and watch from a perch of some kind vs actively swim. 2.) Pao cf. palustrus Mekong River Puffer 75gallon 77F 7.0 300 TDS planted + caves a. My favorite puffer for obvious reasons b. 3 puffer colony ( Male, Female, Female) They are pretty “chippy” for lack of a better term. I do not have one of the twelve 3-month-old fry who doesn’t have a bit of superficial damage from feeding run ins or disagreeing with a sibling. I believe that the males as many more aggressive than the females even as fry. The 75 gallon well planted houses the male and his two females because of the line-of-sight breaks, heavy plants, and good food. They do not fight exactly but the male runs half of the tank and only allows the females over there to feed with him or when one is spawning in his cave with him. The all will come out and swim the glass when they see you, they also like to watch the backyard occasionally which they can see from the end of the tank. The puffers I previously kept: 3.) Tetraodon lineatus Nile/Fahaka Puffer I have kept one of these to 8” or so a very quick to take off and run into things puffer. I have not seen that in the Pao species I have kept. 4.) Carinotetraodon travancoricus Pea Puffer Kept as a group of 6 they were pretty aggressive even more than the Mekong Puffers are. They were always fighting each other in my tank despite the space 40 breeder, heavy plants and food available ramshorns, bloodworms, cherry shrimp, repashy. 5.) Tetraodon schoutedeni Spotted Congo Puffer I have only kept one but this was a very active and engaging puffer in my setups. Did not get flightly and run into things as often as the fahaka did either. The currently known puffers I will try keep eventually: 6.) Tetraodon miurus Potato Puffer / Congo Puffer This is next on my list to get a colony growing up and possibly breeding. This will be my first true Congo River system species to try and grow as a colony. This will be a big learning experience either way once started. 7.) Carinotetraodon salivator Striped Redeye Puffer I have been really considering the redeyes since October or so myself. I have discovered that redeyes are most often imported in Fall and was told that is due to seasonal fluctuations which allow for them to be caught in the wild during our Fall season. When fall comes around and if I can get 6 these will be added. The redeyes are arguably rare due to the locations and seasonal availability. I think it would be fun to try and get them going as captive raised. This look is my favorite of the redeye species currently known. 8.) Carinotetraodon borneensis Borneo Redeye Puffer My 1b redeye puffer I would like to work on both if they ever show up in retail

@Patrick_G No sir they will be around in larger numbers up here. The Pao cf. palustris will have a significant portion of the fish room forever and I expect I will try and have fry and adults in a few tanks forever. I am even working on a DIY acrylic in tank display /divider to limit the damage when feeding larger foods and improve my process on selective breeding in the future. If I ever move any out of the fishroom that will probably be useful to keep those who move on with the best fins and blemish free bodies before they go. At this point I am just planning on what would be a fun next challenge to tackle down the road a bit. The redeyes are on the short list for me.

We are nearly 3 months now with 12 Pao cf palustris juveniles +/- 2" long and cohabitating in a 20 gallon they have been growing out in. Mostly happy in there together but we occasionally have fin nips or small scars from group feedings and brief puffer arguments that are almost certainly between males. They have learned how to control their pointy ends a bit now which is helpful. If i did not have well established cultures of earthworms, whiteworms, ramshorns snails, cherry shrimp, daphnia polycultured with tubifex worms, blackworms, live baby brine, vinegar eels, and soon dwarf crayfish (egged up female below) it would be hard to raise a large spawn off of frozen or prepared foods they eat frequently and a large amount per feeding. Today the "food bill" for the 12 growing puffers was forty 8" nightcrawlers 1/4 cup of live daphina. They eat more often and way more food that my adults do. I will hopefully get another puffer species to work on along with successful Pao cf palustris project, and the not yet successful Pao baileyi "hairy puffer" project started in 2018/2019. If my hairy puffer adults ever breed for me like @Vinm has had with hairy puffers, I will be thankful for that having that personal learning experience.

My breeder Pao palustris male will eat all eggs occasionally and then guard the next batch like a gladiator. I bet there is a method to the Pao baileyi and Pao palustris madness on that. It has happened twice for me where a whole spawn vanishes around day 2 and then a big batch gets going shortly after

I'm looking forward to seeing them grow for you. Such a great puffer species to work with. Do they change colors like the adults as they grow and learn to camouflage? Have you seen any do the puffing up exercise yet? When one of my palustris fry did that the first time i about lost it....and of course i was just in awe and didn't snap a photo. Congrats on the great success with these.

I second @Colu, I have even gone from the 3 up to 7 days occasionally. Not adding any food for a 7 days fast has worked out for me in the past (so long as the fish are past their fry stage). I generally use frozen cyclops or frozen daphnia and less often the frozen bloodworms when doing frozen. Baby brine shrimp, at least anecdotally, has likely helped solve and avoid bloat issues for me. I also occasionally thaw and crush some frozen peas. My dwarf chain loaches will eat pretty much everything I give them ruffage or not.

A) Do you have a bunch of empty tanks that you have room to keep running (like Dean and Cory....not at their level with that many....but a sizeable room...kinda like them)? My fishroom is just a downstairs open room and acts as a bit of a temperature stabilizer for the house. Split level mountain house with a sliding glass door and a window in that room. The "auxiliary" fish room is a rack of mostly live food cultures in the furnace room next to it. 15x20x20 room tanks along 3 walls and maybe a 10x12x10 with a a rack of 6 to 12 tanks depending on layout options used. I do have a few empty tanks.....my " just in case" tanks. 😁 Those and most of my room are various sizes of polycarbonate lab tanks (zebra danio studies etc) or restaurant supply food grade soup storage containers (with lids) i like them because I can swap out however I want to in my racks and could theoretically run them in on a sterilization setting in a dishwasher if i ever needed to do so. They are assortments of : 26x18x15 26x18x12 26x18x9 26x18x6 18x12x9 18x12x6 12x9x9 6x12x6 Mostly those are just fun to do projects in for me quick and easy using the quick connect fittings to the overflow sump. But i designed it so i could drain a big tank and replace it with any of the smaller tanks in a minute or two. They also stack so any extra are all in a 26x18x15 one rack is mostly live food cultures or attempts at cultures of: cherry shrimp, blackworms, tubifex worms, snails, daphnia, Dwarf crayfish. B) Do you just solely focus on breeding, and not have a display tank / sell them to your LFS / fish club / other? (think one maybe two tanks dedicated) I try to make them all tanks for my enjoyment. Every tank has substrate, snails, worms/scuds, and live plants. My goal is to keep interesting comfortable tanks that make fish happy and healthy enough to breed. That part is a bonus for me and never really intended but generally expected ( I do not separate anyone out of the tanks unless its a divider for a time out or a hospital tank need. I collect eggs or fry as they come) I haven't made it a regular thing with moving fish out to condition. I have a 75 acrylic for the adult Pao cf palustris breeding colony 3 x 50 gallon acrylic tsnks 50: the colony of pao baileyi 50: the orinoco pike pair with pleco colonies or L169 and L129 50: the colonies of African Butterfly Fish, Baby Dolphin, African mudfish 20 gallon acrylic: has become my fry grow out display tank which housed the Crenicichla Regani dwarf pike fry last January and the Pao cf palustris fry currently. Its decent size has its own stand and an aquasky light. C) Other - please specify For me I have always done an hour or two per day just relaxing feeding observing the tanks but i also set it up with light timers,inkbird heater regulators, auto feeders as needed, and enough plants with substrate to sustain the system. That set up generally gives my tanks enough live food to keep everyone going for arguably indefinitely to cover vacations etc. We don't have neighbors up here so no one is really feeding them for me. I automate and augment the system with my observations, including watching and reviewing the wyze camera, and interactions and mostly let them do their thing.

@Crabby if i take a video with my phone and then review the video I have a GIF button option top right. Circled it in the screen shot. Not sure how to do it without that button.

I view myself as finding out how to not keep them more than an expert in keeping them at this point.

I defer to the experts but I probably qualify as a slightly experienced with the blackworms at this point. Only because I have failed at blackworms plenty over the past 4 lbs of orders. One thing to keep in mind is, I believe, it would be difficult to raise them in a large quantity like the commercial sellers can in an aquarium. My fish would eat way more than i could produce if allowed. I have purchased plenty from easternaquatics after hearing of them on the forum. I do raise blackworms a bit by seeding my tanks with a few squirts of clean worms into a tank with a substrate they can get into. I believe the non substrate turning fish feed off of them but break them up causing worms to regenerate in the gravel etc. I am attempting a polyculture now 26x18x12 tank blackworms with a pair of dwarf brazos crayfish, and snails. The substrate is black diamond media. The shells are for future shell dweller project but the crawfish use them a bit in the mean time. I would guess this isnt even 1/16th lb of blackworms. l This tank is unheated and sits between 60 and 67 depending on the season and how often the furnace in the same room fires off I feed primarily spirulina flake, spirulina tablets, nano banquet blocks, and repashy both soilent green and super green. The blackworms pretty much eat everything for me and will eat fry food from the water column The crawfish i theory eat some worms and the food i put in. When i killed the blackworms off i believe I put too many in the tank the oxygen content of the water column was not enough for them, they suffocated, my cycle crashed, and I had to reset. I started this attempt maybe 2 months ago by purchasing a pound, cleaning them per instructions and added probably a tablespoon to this tank and all my other tanks.The worms stabilised then grew in numbers minus any tank with a corydoras, loach, krib, or geo type cichlid. I hope you get a few more responses to this one i ha e no idea what i am doing but so far its working this time :)

Looking great. Love that pattern in the fry. How is their behavior at this age compared to the adults?

Rockies for me an hour west of Colorado Springs and little over 9100 feet up. Nothing really here so far minus a good wind storm and a few quick 2-4" hits. Most I've had here is 3' in a night and -22 Fahrenheit for a low temp..... but the daphnia do return to the tub every summer

Late to this party but I say a gas pocket that could not permeate through the nylon is the only thing I can think of that would cause that lift. Do you expect the anoxic layer would be limited to below the nylon as a result of it holding that air bubble below the clay and gravel?

I have also had that happen where a spawn vanished. If it helps my group of palustris the breeding male had a small spawn, then ate the eggs that were infertile a few times (one was the whole spawn), then had a bigger viable spawn that next month; I have never seen infertile eggs last any time at all in the cave with him. Based on my observations with my Pao, I do not believe they will eat them for hunger. Ambush puffers like the P.bailey can likely go a very long time without feeding in the wild. I think egg eating is more for spawn maintenance to keep the viable eggs going. If there are none left it may have been that none were fertile eggs.

Id agree on the Hairy especially. My 3 are all pretty relaxed with each other and cooperatively hunt when that opportunity arises.

Mine really fired up with live foods its one of my go to adjustments for anything not yet settled