Torrey

@KentFishFanUK identified the most likely driver for the phone conversation: defensive over fish dying. Having a QT will make things infinitely easier in the long run, and if you want to make your life even easier, get an Aquarium Co-op sponge filter (in addition to the filter you have on your QT), and when the QT is empty, hide the sponge filter behind some plants in your display tank. This way, you always have a cycled filter ready to go in an emergency. Dither fish are schooling fish, because schooling helps keep their anxiety down. Which means by nature, they are skittish and easily stressed.... which means it doesn't take much to push their limits, and then they get sick. You identified the ich rapidly, that means you are observant, and being observant is literally the most critical skill for successful fish keeping. Patience is the second most important skill. Once you have 2 species of fish in the tank, their anxiety will go down, especially if people in the house respect the fish' needs, and don't do things near the tank to add to fish anxiety. You got this! And you also have a decent LFS, that's doing right by you (except for the one phone call... so, 66.666% doing right by you?🤔)

I believe that the articles I posted do a pretty good job explaining that the CO2 levels increase over the course of the siesta to a maximum saturation point that is achieved within 5 hours of darkness, and then CO2 levels drop from their maximum point, to a minimum, within 5 hours of lights on. Which, if one uses the siesta period, allows for twice as much growth (2 growth "spurts") and therefore would consume 2x the nitrates, which was the point of the siesta. To help @Josh be successful with plants, to help him have fun, and to spread a little joy with a fellow nerm. I don't need to prove it works, because someone else has already done the research. Or is there something else going on, and I am missing a social cue in communication?

I am going to be doing some trimming this weekend. I'll get a picture on white paper with a ruler, make it easier to identify.

I did not think to take pictures? I have learned that a very determined ornate ornata will take apart the canvas "plant in a box" (like a jack in the box, but with more frustrated words when making) if you have a stroke and don't change out the plant after the turtle chews it back all the way to the plastic😅. That's why I tagged Aqua Shack to see your version, and I will be building new boxes this weekend and take pictures this time.

Those are amazing photographs! Excellent documentation.

Odd question for everyone who uses Bug Bites: I buy the larger container of spirulina flakes, and the large container of the color enhancer. Use the food saver and seal up in ~2 week supply packets, store the sealed packets in a cool, dry place and store an opened packet in the plastic tube/jar it comes in. I just bought a new container of the (red flake) color enhancer by Bug Bites, and when I compared the nutritional information I noticed that the new container has less phosphorus than the old container did. I also feed frozen foods (brine, blood worms), live (black worms, bbs, daphnia, infusoria for fry), and Aqueon betta pellets, as well as the Bug Bites sinking wafers. Has anyone else bought the color enhancer flakes from Bug Bites in the past 2 months, and then had an increase in algae in their tanks? I know that it sounds odd, but several people in my local club have complained about noticing a new algae growth, and my first thought was fluctuations in water quality from the water treatment plant, but 2 of the people only use RO water. The only thing we all have in common is new algae, and just started the new Bug Bites 🤷‍♂️

@Odd Duck that's why I thought it would be such a great idea. And while I knew I couldn't do it all alone, after spending 15 minutes doing general searches instead of peer-reviewed searches, I instantly saw what you and Zenzo were talking about: A potential disaster. Things that would make it easier? 1. Access to the university's plagiarism program 2. People who already know how to do peer-reviewed research, or willing to learn how to pull peer-reviewed articles 3. Limiting the spreadsheet to peer-reviewed info on fish, and use full citations (see #1) I don't know how many people are like me, and pull peer-reviewed research to cross-reference meta data for fun😅

I have a very wide range of music I listen to, that reflects my travels....

Yeah........ I just spent 15 minutes down the rabbit hole..... **if** someone volunteers who is more tech savvy, I found 3 ways to make it easier, and anyone who submits information that doesn't include a citation to verify, it doesn't get included. I think it could be a fun project, still, but not quite as fun as I first envisioned 😅 Internet is great, because so much information at my fingertips. **AND** INTERNET IS HORRIBLE BECAUSE ALMOST 90% ISN'T VERIFIED😳

Glad you were able to join the nerm-side!

If I live in the desert, is every 5 - 7 days sufficient? And do I keep use aquarium water now that all the flowers fell off?

I was told that breeding in vicinity of predators, within 4 - 6 generations the males would lose color. Not an albino, just melanin/chromatome (it's late, I may have the wrong words/terms) gene expression would turn off. Sounded like a cool experiment to check out with so-called "mutt feeder guppies".... fast forward 18 months of quarantine, and all the generations of feeder fish in the turtle pond are supporting this theory. I pull out ~30 fish, put in a qt, dose for potential parasites, because pond, and wait a few weeks to see how everyone is doing. While in QT, pull any fish that develops a gonopodium, and place in a male tank. Catch any fry, and return to turtle pond to be sorted later. Separate gravid females and put on other side of divider. 6 definite females, after 5 weeks, excluding the 4 gravid females. I put the 6 [theoretically] virgin females in the 4' tank in my spouse's room..... 4 hours later, we have 12 fish. Obviously, I didn't always get the males separated fast enough. No biggie, right? Except 4 weeks later, I only have 3 females, 3 VERY OBVIOUS MALES, 6 fry a month old, and 30 new tiny fry..... I'm ready to give up on sexing..... Spouse is super attached, and doesn't want to get rid of any of the babies, and doesn't want a birth control species (aka schooling fish that will consume fry). Okay. Yesterday, the visual reality of the exponential growth of guppies sank in..... BTW: 2nd generation born out of colorless pairings? All the males look like wild caught endlers....😳

Maybe we could start a Google doc for the Nerms? People could add information including the parameter extremes that they have found, and how the fish behaved/ reacted at those extremes? Someone who is more technologically savvy than I could enter the various search parameters, so someone could research fish based on tank size requirements, or pH requirements, or temp requirements, and cross reference until they are easily able to see what fish will match what they have, instead of trying to force water to match the fish a person bought🤷‍♂️ If any nerm has the tech skills to help build an easily searchable spreadsheet, please give me a holler. Because I am not going to recreate the hardcopy one again 😅 But if we all work together, it wouldn't be as overwhelming..... I think a nerm designed ACF Spreadsheet of Plants, and ACF Spreadsheet of fish would be a huge benefit..... @Zenzo if we do it right, that could be a Forum Members benefit, yes?

I am a firm believer in research. Full disclosure: Dr Diana Walstad is friends with my brother-in-law, so I do step back to make sure that I am presenting evidence based information and not my personal preferences. Of course, that might be my autism. @Josh has a tank that is underperforming by his definition, and we are all nerms trying to support him. @Marnol D @Hobbit (yes!!! You understood the connection between photosynthesis and reduced nitrates!), @ARMYVET, @Odd Duck, @Alexa, @Patrick_G, and @Theresa W have all been parts of discussions (or newly asked questions) about the role of siestas. Here is a peer-reviewed article on the role of HCO3- in photosynthesis and aquatic plant respiration, followed by a link to the data behind the siesta recommendation that has lowered nitrate levels by increasing growth: https://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/threads/lighting-siesta-co2.67271/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3659369/ I'm not sure how links work for Safari, they may need to be copied and pasted. I drop these here to help you have success @Josh and I am more than willing to answer any other questions to help you and your wife to be able to enjoy your tank instead of resent your tank.

That is not the experience I have had, and not the experience Dr Diana Walstad has had. I wish I had found the forum earlier, and I would have posted pictures of the growth in my 'control' tank without siesta, and my Walstad inspired tank with siesta. Now all my tanks are enjoying a mid-day siesta, and I have seen / measured the increased growth. Hornwort being the most noticeable change, but also getting red stem plants that are **red** for the first time w/o CO2 system on a tank.

Hopefully we can get an identification of this plant? Stems are thicker and... juicier? (for lack of a better way to describe) than the ludwiga repens. Ludwiga stems are more woody.

Now, I have to ask @Streetwise how to add it to my signature, lol! @Aqua Shack Atitagain modified one of my planting ideas that will keep turtles from completely destroying plants. If you like this approach better than creating a plant safety box, you will need to first grow the plants until they have a significant enough root ball that the turtles can't pull them out (so grow in another tank for a while) and then trade out plants as they get munched on to give plants time to recuperate. The turtles munching on plants will encourage super bushy growth.

I have had the awesome luck of finding what doesn't work, so most of my tanks are not heated. I've been using Hygger thermostat controls which have a cooling and heating option, but I use to control 2 heaters in any tank 10 g or larger.

If the photo period were to be broken up with a siesta in the middle, the plants would have access to more CO2 for photosynthesis, which will increase the amount of nitrates that the plants will utilize. I have been rereading the information on the aquariumscience dot org site, regarding the assumed to toxicity of nitrates, and realized that we aquarists have a tendency to become purists, which then destroys the joy we first had with the hobby. @Josh wrote that he has his lighting ramp up to full capacity by 2 pm, it turns off by 7 pm, and is back on at 8 am. That's 11 hours of light exposure, but plants use up available CO2 in 4 to 5 hours. That means the plants can only use the nitrates for 4 to 5 hours, and the remaining hours the algae gets to utilize the nitrates. If the siesta is scheduled in, then CO2 will build up overnight and be exhausted by noon. Lights go off for 3 to 4 hours, allowing CO2 to build up again, then lights back on for 4 to 5 hours. This will allow the plants to use almost double the nitrates, which will rapidly deplete the tank if balance is not found. (Hope I explained better, long day) It would be lower with a siesta time, as siesta makes more CO2 available to plants allowing more photosynthesis to occur, using up more nitrates.

Yours actually looks more simple than either of my methods @Atitagain! I need to find my thread / post / topic on plant identification & care, and add it to my signature. I'm still learning how to use the forum 🤣 I think you just solved my mid ground issue, Atitagain! Much lower profile, and I can still use the taller, rolled canvas method behind it to help create a lot more depth. **adds to idea notebook**

My picture does *not* do the colors justice. The larger snail, almost center of the back glass, is a large, getting redder by the day, ramshorn.... Plants are @Guppysnail's favorite milfoil. Hope everyone has a great week!

If you seriously want to nerd out, try building a spreadsheet. I had started one several years back... sadly I didn't have Google Sheets as an option yet, so when our house burnt down I lost my spreadsheet. I have started a new one, but haven't gotten far enough for it to be of much nerm-enjoyment, lol. Aquarium Co-op has tons of excellent information. I also Google *peer-reviewed + fish species* to get the most accurate information on various fish. My spreadsheet includes pH of natural habitat, pH of avg tank raising operations, hardness (minimum and maximum), temp requirements, breeding requirements, size, aggression, size of mouth, schooling/shoaling/solitary, etc. Benefits of computerized spreadsheets vs old fashioned hand written (in addition to cloud back up) is searchability when looking for fish that enjoy specific water parameters to minimize work load.😅

Oops, I hit submit reply by mistake. The link for OWL https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/research_and_citation/apa_style/apa_style_introduction.html A couple of good studies https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23885412/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30416716/

If the average individual wants access to peer-reviewed research, typing *peer-reviewed* plus what you are researching should bring up plenty of open access articles. I use OWL (online writing library) from Purdue to format my sources for all my papers, because half of what I write is in APA style, and the other half is whatever style is listed as the requisite. I miss my old school days: Spending hours in the stacks with the smell of leather bound books. However, while I would have found Dr Diana Walstad's Treatise in the NCSU stacks, I don't think I would have found a copy of the peer-reviewed research on the therapeutic effects of catawba or Indian Almond Leaves on the domesticated betta splendens. (It's a great article, btw)

You have a gorgeous CT!🥰