Aging Water??

[Fish Folk]

So...  questions for supr nerms on the forum:

What’s the deal with “aging water”? Is it to let chloramine gas off? Stabilize pH? Rest so that gasses can surface? 
 

Confession... we don’t “age” or “rest” our water before doing water changes. We’re pretty consistent with changing our water on most tanks. Not sure we’ve ever had problems. 
 

But I’m trying to learm, so bring on the nerm! 

 

[FlyingFishKeeper]

From what I've read it seems like it might be to let the chlorine evaporate from the water and to let it stabilize its water parameters. (Like Co2 so it stabilizes ph to an extent.) It seems like it might be from before dechlorinator was a common as it is today. 

Edited December 22, 2020 by FlyingFishKeeper
Grammar

[Ken]

Not a supr nerm but. Back in the olden days... before I got back in the hobby this time there was talk of compressed gasses trapped in the water that needed to dissipate (think "the bends") I used to get my water from a well on my property that was about 150 feet deep in an area that was 5043 feet in elevation and it did off gas for a while. I always let it sit overnight or warmed up enough. Don't know if it mattered at all. Current location is at about 4600 feet and the water comes from a city culinary well just up the road that I'm guessing is way deeper than a couple hundred feet. Now I use a python and ignore the bubbles. And here I have to deal with chlorine, that's the other reason people let it sit.

[Coronal Mass Ejection Carl]

I'm pretty sure tap water is supersaturated with gases as I've measured oxygen at 120%. People with wells may have the opposite problem.

Heating cold water in the tank can result in gas bubble trauma. Using hot water from the constantly corroding water heater can put iron, zinc, aluminum, etc., in the water.

So I prefer to heat cold tap water in a barrel while mixing it. It does take about 24 hours for oxygen levels to decline to 100%.

I add dechlorinator right away and then either let the water sit until the ammonia is eaten by nitrifying bacteria (which can take awhile) or use clinoptilolite to adsorb it.

I have a pump on a timer refill the tank in stages so I don't have to worry about matching parameters.

A lot of people just mix hot and cold water and throw some dechlorinator into the tank. They also occasionally have fish die.

I used to lose fish during/shortly after water changes. Not anymore.

This takes more time but isn't really more work. I live here so I don't see what the hurry is.

[Fish Folk]

The other night, I did a late water change after the lights had gone out. In the morning, several fish were struggling like I’d never seen before. They were pointed at bottom, gills “breathing” heavily... almost looking like something was wrong with their swim bladder. By the end of the day, they’d come through ... but it got me thinking about this topic. I’d love to know who all really ages their water? How do they do it? And what are their reasons? 

Edited December 22, 2020 by Fish Folk

[tolstoy21]

@Fish FolkI do and don't age my water.

If I am doing a big water change, I have aged water staged in a 40 gallon brute can with a powerhead that circulates the water. Main reason I age it is because it's comes out of the tap with a Ph in the 5's. I guess it has to gas off C02? That's what I read, but I never went too 'nerm-deep' down the 'nerm-hole' into the science of all that. I also heat the water and have a bag if crushed coral sitting in the bottom of the container. If I'm making water for a soft-water tank, I'll age it in a smaller bucket, but skip the CC.

I also do drip changes on an auto-water change system. For that, I just run the water directly into the tank (it passes through a sediment filter first). This comes on a few times a day for a short periods. I don't age this, but the small volume I add to the tank and the rate at which it gets added has yet to have an impact on my fish that I am aware of.

[Andy's Fish Den]

I don't currently age water, but I have a couple 55 gallon barrels that I am going to start after I remodel my fish room here over the next couple months. I have a well that is about 100' deep, and during the winter I get a lot of air bubbles in the water as I am refilling due to the dissolved oxygen in the water. I want to let it sit for a day or two to settle to let that off gas as well as for the pH to settle. I also have an RO unit that I am going to run some to be able to mix water to a lower pH to try and induce some of my fish to spawn.

[Maggie]

I age my water after dechlorinating, mostly to allow gasses to escape, but also to warm it up to room temp so it requires less heating. Water from the tap is under pressure and holds a lot of dissolved gas, and the colder it is the more it holds. 

[JettsPapa]

Can someone please explain to me why excess oxygen in the water is a bad thing?  I don't know if mine has it or not, but since it's not uncommon for there to be tiny bubbles on plants and the sides of my tank for several hours after a water change I'd think it's likely.  I don't age my water, or temperature match for that matter, and on the larger tanks it's not uncommon for them to be refilled by dragging a hose through a door or window from outside.  I haven't lost a fish, or observed any distress, in either tank in months.

I am on a well, so chlorine or chloramine isn't an issue.

[tolstoy21]

@JettsPapa When I used to change water via sink water with a Python, I didn't age it either, and I'd just approximate temp via the faucets. Never had a problem (I also have no chlorine or chloramine to have to content with).

I only stage it now because the way I have my aquarium water system plumbed into my house, the water comes out freezing cold and acidic. So larger volume water changes can be problematic. But to be honest, I just assumed they'd be problematic and never ran a test to see if they actually were.

I'm not sure about the excess oxygen thing either. Aren't gills are less efficient than lungs at oxygen absorption? or are they more efficient? And don't a lot of fish shippers put pure O2 in their bags?  

I'm honestly out of my league with making sense of any of that info in terms of the O2 levels in aquarium water. But if someone else can drop some science on us, that would be awesome.

[Coronal Mass Ejection Carl]

It's not just oxygen supersaturation but total gas pressure that's the concern. Most of it is probably nitrogen.

When gases are supersaturated they will come out of solution. This is why you see bubbles everywhere when you put cold water in a tank and it's warmed up.

It's also happening inside the bloodstream of the fish and can cause gas emboli.

When I was new to the hobby I would refill directly from my RO filter. I noticed the bubbles but didn't think they were harmful. A few months later the water was colder and/or I did a larger water change and fish died.

I've only lost a handful of fish to disease over the years. The vast majority were killed by water changes in the early years. Stricter water change procedures put an end to that.

[gardenman]

My well water comes out of the tap with a low ph (6.2-6.4-ish) and off the chart high ammonia. (A very bad combination.) No nitrites or nitrates though. I use old kitty litter bottles to hold the tap water and let it sit for a few days with a little bit of crushed coral in the bottom of the bottles and it's more manageable when I need it. I don't do large water changes because of that and I keep Prime on hand, but my fish are all doing very well. The tanks are heavily planted and thriving.  You should do whatever works for you. This works for me. Those kitty litter bottles are great for storing water by the way. Each one holds around two gallons and they're really tough bottles.  They're essentially free with the kitty litter (Cats Pride at Walmart for $5.98.) I rinse them out and let them air out for a bit, then use them for aquarium water.

[Andy's Fish Den]

33 minutes ago, JettsPapa said:

Can someone please explain to me why excess oxygen in the water is a bad thing?  I don't know if mine has it or not, but since it's not uncommon for there to be tiny bubbles on plants and the sides of my tank for several hours after a water change I'd think it's likely.  I don't age my water, or temperature match for that matter, and on the larger tanks it's not uncommon for them to be refilled by dragging a hose through a door or window from outside.  I haven't lost a fish, or observed any distress, in either tank in months.

I am on a well, so chlorine or chloramine isn't an issue.

In the winter typically when the cold water coming into your house is colder, it will become super saturated with gases, especially oxygen as it is warmed up, it has to do with since cold water will hold more oxygen than warm water, then when it is heated that oxygen is released, that is why you see all the little bubbles floating in the water and on the sides of the aquarium. It can cause issues with the fish similar to what divers call "the bends" that can happen if they come to the surface too fast when diving, where you can get tiny bubbles of oxygen in your bloodstream. Some fish are more susceptible to this that others, discus are ones that I have read about the most having issues.

[AdamTill]

Some people turn aging water into a religion, but it’s really only even useful in a tiny handful of cases. There’s one goldfish vendor in particular that claims that they can “see” whether a client has aged their water appropriately by colour...at least for purposes of honouring warranty claims.

The cases where they’re appropriate have been covered here already...well water, stabilizing oxygen or pH, etc.

The extreme cases are the ranchu folk who keep small ponds for raising fish without filters, and change the fish from pond to pond every few days (100% water changes with aged water). Can’t argue with their success, but certainly not my style.

The closest I came was a 100 gallon tank I filled up daily for my fish room. I could then use it for changes on the other tanks. I added dechlor and aerated it, but even that I wouldn’t call aging. It’s tough to find room for even moderate size tanks to duplicate the water volume.

Edited December 22, 2020 by AdamTill

[Fish Folk]

1 hour ago, Andy's Fish Den said:

It can cause issues with the fish similar to what divers call "the bends" that can happen if they come to the surface too fast when diving, where you can get tiny bubbles of oxygen in your bloodstream. Some fish are more susceptible to this that others, discus are ones that I have read about the most having issues

Yeah, saw this (I think) with our discus he other day. We changed water at night after lights out, and they were acting pretty stressed ("bendy") the next day. Good tip on cold water / excess gasses. 

[Wingman12r]

I don't age my water, however I have high levels of chlorine in my tap water. It often smells like a swimming pool.

I do my water changes into a 32 gallon brute trash can and add 1.5x-2x seachem safe. I have a pump that circulates the water in a manner that aerates the water to help off gas the chlorine. 

I still have plenty of gas bubbles that accumulate on my plants, but have zero issues with the health of the fish.

[Fish Folk]

27 minutes ago, Wingman12r said:

I do my water changes into a 32 gallon brute trash can

Had a guy in our region, on a different water system, who was getting high levels of ammonia in tap water. Would “age” tap water awhile in large heavy duty trash can that had the bottom filled  with lots of bacteria-colonized red lava rock. (Could probably just use a ton of bio thingys used in sumps) His goal was to lower the ammonia some before adding. (Probably could use a few primed sponge filters too... the aeration would circulate water and gas off unwanted chems, etc)

[AdamTill]

I think the moral of the story is that if you have a reason to do so, go for it. Just don’t become one of the people that thinks everyone should.

[Maggie]

Here is some information on gas bubble disease from NIH. 

[Gas bubble disease of fish] - PubMed

PUBMED.NCBI.NLM.NIH.GOV

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Gas bubble disease (GBD), a non-infectious, environmentally/physically...

 

[ADMWNDSR83]

Wow, I have never aged water, pumping directly through a python-type homemade device.  I always heard the chlorine side of aging, and use Seachem prime so I've never thought anything of it.  I never even considered the gaseous side of the argument!  Ive never seen any noticeable stress, though, so I don't know. 

[AdamTill]

29 minutes ago, Maggie said:

Here is some information on gas bubble disease from NIH. 

[Gas bubble disease of fish] - PubMed

PUBMED.NCBI.NLM.NIH.GOV

---

Gas bubble disease (GBD), a non-infectious, environmentally/physically...

 

Not a trivial thing, either.

We had some very expensive goldfish die after being sent to us, and after sending one off to the pathology lab here they credited gas bubble damage from shipment in combination with preexisting gill fluke damage. Made worse of course from the pressure changes in flight.

[Coronal Mass Ejection Carl]

1 hour ago, Wingman12r said:

I don't age my water, however I have high levels of chlorine in my tap water. It often smells like a swimming pool.

I do my water changes into a 32 gallon brute trash can and add 1.5x-2x seachem safe.

Dosing Safe 6.2 times more than recommended will match Prime's recommended dose.

Seachem would like you to think that Safe is a lot more "concentrated" than Prime but it isn't.

You can dissolve a lot of dry dechlorinator in water.

1 mL of Prime is equivalent to 237 mg of Safe.

That sounds like a lot but you can dissolve 700 mg of sodium thiosulfate in 1 mL of water.

[AdamTill]

1 minute ago, ADMWNDSR83 said:

Wow, I have never aged water, pumping directly through a python-type homemade device.  I always heard the chlorine side of aging, and use Seachem prime so I've never thought anything of it.  I never even considered the gaseous side of the argument!  Ive never seen any noticeable stress, though, so I don't know. 

I personally think it isn’t common knowledge because it’s not a common problem. Otherwise experienced keepers doing the same thing you do would have yelled about it more often.

That said worth being aware of in case it plagues you in some future house or with crazy sensitive fish.

[AdamTill]

1 minute ago, Coronal Mass Ejection Carl said:

Dosing Safe 6.2 times more than recommended will match Prime's recommended dose.

Seachem would like you to think that Safe is a lot more "concentrated" than Prime but it isn't.

You can dissolve a lot of dry dechlorinator in water.

1 mL of Prime is equivalent to 237 mg of Safe.

That sounds like a lot but you can dissolve 700 mg of sodium thiosulfate in 1 mL of water.

Really? News to me. I’ll have to look into that

[Coronal Mass Ejection Carl]

9 minutes ago, AdamTill said:

I personally think it isn’t common knowledge because it’s not a common problem. Otherwise experienced keepers doing the same thing you do would have yelled about it more often.

That said worth being aware of in case it plagues you in some future house or with crazy sensitive fish.

One person in my local club manages a zebrafish lab and I just remembered that she once said our tap water's total gas pressure was in the danger zone.

Another person manages one town's drinking water supply and he recommended aging water to deal with our high pH and ammonia (we have chloramine).

8 minutes ago, AdamTill said:

Really? News to me. I’ll have to look into that

I'm the one who discovered it when testing dechlorinators so there really isn't any information out there other than what I've put out. One clue is the amount of Prime and Safe Seachem recommends to neutralize bleach after regenerating Purigen it comes out very close.

Purigen and Safe - Seachem Support Forums

FORUM.SEACHEM.COM

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Hi Can you use Safe to recharge Purigen? Thanks Mark

One person keeps complaining about how the doses of Prime and Safe aren't equivalent. What he doesn't realize is that the recommended doses of Safe and Prime aren't equivalent. If you make a 6.2X adjustment then the numbers make sense.

Another clue is that the old dosage was 4X higher with no change in formulation.

Then there are the reports I read every few weeks of someone doing a water change and fish dying when using Safe.

I'll make a video one of these days.