Does anybody "let the tank feed itself" ala Father Fish?

[MattyM]

YouTuber Father Fish says a lot of things that I take with a grain of salt (like if you use gravel your tank is a cesspool, etc) - but this one is kind of intriguing, I just don't know how it would be done in my tanks. My plants are healthy and barely shed any leaves. I take the Cory approach and feed a variety of foods - from flakes, Raphashy, frozen and live foods etc. and my fish/shrimp/snails are healthy.

Just thought it'd be interesting to get others' opinions. 

 

[Fish Folk]

I think there's some wisdom here. Like you, I take this with a grain of salt. I agree with adding leaves. I add oak leaves to NANF tanks, and Catappa leaves to Amazon tanks. I agree that there's a micro-flora / micro-fauna base for the food system. Over time, aquariums develop a balance and can support far more life than we normally understand. The scenes of deep leaf-bed-mulm here is excellent context. I believe we can feed a lot less in a heavily planted aquarium without harming small fish.

I think it's worth experimenting on. But there is nothing wrong -- and some benefits -- to adding healthy prepared foods on a regular basis. Most of us just overdo that, and feed a third-world-country rather than a fish tank. (I represent that remark 😆 )

Edited April 11, 2023 by Fish Folk

[BeeGryphon]

This is interesting. I'm still pretty new to this so some of this will be just based on my knowledge of nature in general. He did touch on two of my concerns going in, which is an aquarium is much smaller than a natural water source, and it's completely independent from the environment. I would think it's probably easier with a larger tank to reach a good balance, and you would need to add leaves and things regularly. That being said, I do think nature adds food in the form of surface insects, amphibian eggs, and larva, so I don't think that adding food in moderation is excessive.

I personally use lots of botanicals: oak and catappa leaves and various seed pods that I think look cool. I also let dying leaves from my living plants stay in the tank, only removing what I trim away myself. I haven't had an ammonia spike yet so I figure let the tank take back the nutrients. I do have a lot of microfauna that the fish enjoy hunting after, but there are significantly less since adding the fish, especially worms. Besides treat days, I feed a couple of betta pellets and one crushed flake per day. I don't know that I would be confident they were getting the right nutrition if I left them to their own devices, plus that's one less interaction I get to have with them. I love watching the feeding frenzy and the fact that the betta will follow my finger to the pellets. Although we of course need to be responsible and make sure our fish are getting good nutrition and hopefully not overfed, I think feeding them is for us too 🙂

[JettsPapa]

I don't let the tank "feed itself."  Mine are stocked too heavily for that to work.

I have taken his advice about the deep substrates (I've posted here before about my using 1-2 inches of cow manure mixed with dirt and capped with sand), and I also add dead brown leaves quite often.

[Nana Finopolis]

I'm so paranoid that my fish are starving that I tend to overfeed. My tanks are pretty heavily planted, but I still get nervous they aren't getting enough. I need to relax a bit. I know I overfeed because I have knock down drag outs with various types of algae, lol. I agree with others. Being indoors, our tanks don't get bugs, leaves and various other things dropping in the water. I guess it's like anything else, moderation is important.

[Guppysnail]

I have not watched this particular video but many others he has done. I agree with him based on how he runs his tanks. No 2 tanks are alike and I watched one of his videos where he discussed this does not really work with fish over I think 2-2.5 inches because those fish are in top of a thriving ecosystem vs part of it. 
He also does a video discussing collecting fauna from bodies of freshwater to achieves that stable self sustaining ecosystem. In an average aquarium without it we do not have nearly enough diversity in microfauna to achieve the level of stability he talks about.
Gravel substrate does create a cesspool and that’s why I vacuum my tanks which are all gravel (save the few snail tanks I just put sand in). Without the dirt there is not enough of the correct microorganisms to break the yuck into a usable part of the ecosystem.  (Think malfunctioning septic tank you need to add some rid-x to)
The part I disagree with him on is there being only one “right way” to do things. Not even 2 of my tanks run identical or require me to feed them as often/much. 
There are so many ways to achieve a healthy thriving tank. 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Guppysnail

[Lennie]

I personally think we should understand no matter what the size is, a small tank sitting in our rooms at home is not a part of nature. I have seen a couple of his videos before and I've noticed that he usually bases his ideas on mother nature. I think our fish tanks are not related to nature in the bigger picture. Just each of us trying to imitate positives of what we see in nature to a very limited extend. Plants adding great benefits, beneficial bacteria and cycle, tannins, critters, etc. yes. But we as humans directly have an impact of what goes into a tank and we manually setup a "lifecycle" there. Which is not really a lifecycle at all. It is a cycle of our individual liking.

As a person who has been keeping lots of pets his entire life, I wanna say we are responsible to offer these animals the best life condition and feeding is one of the most important perspective of this. We are responsible for making sure our lil friends are getting their best nutrition their entire life and I find trying to call a system self sustaining is a bit lazy. And let's be real, most fish we keep today are either not existing in nature right now, or never been into nature at all. It is like a chihuahua finding food in a home garden with potential preys and expecting it to have a good diet because well, there are some potential food in the garden!

I also believe it is not really different if I release my guineapigs, chickens, tortoises, dogs, cats into our garden and stop feeding them considering our garden offers WAY MORE food to our animals compared to a small fish tank at home. But what do I do? I feed them. I believe this is not different than feeding a fish tank at all. If a chicken finds an extra bug in the garden, or tortoises find an extra wildflower or weed in the garden they like, good for them. yummy! If fish like to pick up on leaves I put into a tank or eat a worm they find, great! But it is my responsibility to provide them their main diet no matter what size the fish has.

I personally find it pointless to base everything into a self-sustaining cycle in a fish tank under the name of nature. As I said, I see it no different than getting chickens, guineapigs and tortoises and leaving them in the garden expect them to continue their whole cycle and say well, nature guys, find food! That's all about what your limited garden may offer. The chicken you have lives in a garden. It is not the wild bird back in the day that lives in the forest.

In a fish tank, it is even more of a man-made environment where all your "garden" may offer, with much much limited plant and critter options really. Based on whatever you decide to introduce.

 

Btw, as an addition, I love snails and shrimp. However, couple weeks ago, I had a chance to talk with an assistant professor who works on freshwater and fish as a career, and he adviced not to keep snails in my fish tanks at all together with the fish. Yes, they are great parts of a cycle in the mother nature, but our tanks are not nature. 

But I do respect everyones opinion for sure. But I think it is impossible to make sure your tank is getting a balanced diet this way and considering the majority of fishkeepers and how much time people invest in the hobby, I think this type of a video may harm fish more than benefits. It encourages being "lazy" and this hobby ain't it in my opinion.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Lennie

[MattyM]

On 4/11/2023 at 1:38 PM, Guppysnail said:

Gravel substrate does create a cesspool and that’s why I vacuum my tanks which are all gravel (save the few snail tanks I just put sand in).

Not the case with my main gravel tank, but there's prob at least 4" of small sized, smooth gravel in it. I really only vacuum the "beach" area where there are no plants, and the tank is mega planted. It's prob also over-filtered it a bit, and has been up and running a year and looks great. I'm sure the shrimp, cory cats and snails help keep it "clean."

That said I do prefer a deep sand substrate, and once I added trumpet snails to that tank they keep the substrate nice and churned, so the mulm doesn't build up too much. Never tried a dirted tank. 

[Guppysnail]

@MattyM perfect example of more than one way to skim a cat. I don’t have any gravel churning snails like Mts so mine does turn yucky without vacuum. My plants are not all root feeders either. I love aquariums because of the diverse methods and ways to achieve success.  

[Scapexghost]

I agree with the premise that a lightly stocked and heavily planted tank can go on indefinitely w/o intervention. But if your goal is to breed fish and grow plants, then you have to add to the system if the form of ferts or food

[Lennie]

On 4/11/2023 at 10:15 PM, Guppysnail said:

@MattyM perfect example of more than one way to skim a cat. I don’t have any gravel churning snails like Mts so mine does turn yucky without vacuum. My plants are not all root feeders either. I love aquariums because of the diverse methods and ways to achieve success.  

Believe me it is yucky with mts too. I gravel vac every week, and you can't imagine the smell when I took down my 29g last week. LOL, it the yuck just lays on the bottom 😄 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Lennie

[BeeGryphon]

On 4/11/2023 at 12:06 PM, Lennie said:

However, couple weeks ago, I had a chance to talk with an assistant professor who works on freshwater and fish as a career, and he adviced not to keep snails in my fish tanks at all together with the fish. Yes, they are great parts of a cycle in the mother nature, but our tanks are not nature. 

Interesting. Did he say why?

[MattyM]

@Guppysnail and @Lennie - just to clarify I have MTS's in my sanded tank and they do a great job, tho I intentionally suck a handful up when I water change to keep their numbers in check (never seen a snail reproduce like MTS!). 

[Lennie]

On 4/11/2023 at 10:22 PM, BeeGryphon said:

Interesting. Did he say why?

They can host many stuff that don't directly affect themselves but the fish we keep, and we cannot really medicate snails. That's why I believe. So in nature, I guess they all find a way to balance itself. However, in the most basic format, we don't want parasites or diseases in our fishtank and snails can easily host some or help their life cycle. Also some wild caught snails can come with some leeches as well. So only option may be is to quarantine them for long period of time until we are sure it breaks for potential hosting going on I guess? I really don't know. I am just medicating my tanks lately as I fully stocked them and I made a 10g snail quarantine tank and planning to keep the snails in qt tank for 2 months or so hoping potential parasite cycles break.

He was a friend of my vet. So I couldn't have much time to talk to him a lot. He explained stuff but my vitamin b12 lacking brain cannot recall details :') When I was planning to medicate my tanks, I asked him about my snails, as I have nerites rabbits and mysteries, as well as mini ramshorns and MTS, and he just said Ideally I shouldn't keep snails with fish in a home aquarium and explained why, but I cannot really remember. But it def had something to do with snails hosting issues. I didn't have a chance to talk to him for so long and I had lots of questions regarding medicating tanks and the stuff they use/work on, as we don't have fish medicine here directly so gotta work with cat/dog/cattle prazi and levamisole. Odd duck and Colu helped a lot for me to dose those too.

 

On 4/11/2023 at 10:59 PM, Pepere said:

I tried to get rid of the snails that hitched in on plants..  I removed specimens multiple times a day for weeks before giving up….

Did he give an opinion on how to get rid of them?

Well, even if he did not recommend it, I am on the team snails 😄  I love them. After quarantining them for 2 months, I'm planning to release my snails back to my tanks, hoping it to break any parasite cycle, if there is any. If you are not having disease/parasite related issues, I would not worry tbh.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Lennie

[BeeGryphon]

@Lennie That seems pretty fair. I personally would consider it more in the realm of "be aware of/be cautious" than "don't ever do", but everyone's going to feel differently about it, like just about everything in the hobby. I definitely wouldn't be adding any wild caught snails to my tank though!

[Lennie]

On 4/11/2023 at 11:23 PM, BeeGryphon said:

@Lennie That seems pretty fair. I personally would consider it more in the realm of "be aware of/be cautious" than "don't ever do", but everyone's going to feel differently about it, like just about everything in the hobby. I definitely wouldn't be adding any wild caught snails to my tank though!

the problem besides some wildcaughts like nerites, is hitchikers or snails with pet value like tankbred rabbits or mysteries spending time at stores with fish or being in contact with some others that might be already subject to parasites or diseases. It seems hard to know and hard to avoid in general as a guarantee.

But I understand you. Even personally I believe in observation quarantine for fish rather than medicating directly. So for someone that likes snails, it is doable as well in my opinion

[BeeGryphon]

On 4/11/2023 at 1:29 PM, Lennie said:

the problem besides some wildcaughts like nerites, is hitchikers or snails with pet value like tankbred rabbits or mysteries spending time at stores with fish or being in contact with some others that might be already subject to parasites or diseases. It seems hard to know and hard to avoid in general as a guarantee.

But I understand you. Even personally I believe in observation quarantine for fish rather than medicating directly. So for someone that likes snails, it is doable as well in my opinion

Yeah, you're never going to know 100% I feel. I could understand why someone might choose to never have snails (on purpose... I got some hitchhikers myself I discovered just this last weekend lol). By the same token, I don't think I'll ever get fish from a large pet department store because I think the likelihood that they'll be sick is too high, but some people don't really have a choice and others don't mind the extra work of making sure they're healthy, or might even like the challenge. Obviously we don't want to endanger our tanks, but I don't think it's right to say you must absolutely never do or always do this that or the other thing. The fun thing I've found with this forum versus just reading articles is there are so many ways to do things. Everyone has different preferences or things that work best for them. It's fun to see people do things I never would have thought of, or that look very interesting but aren't for me! Just like letting the tank feed itself. I've heard of basically self maintaining tanks but wouldn't have thought there are people who just don't feed their fish at all.

[Lennie]

On 4/11/2023 at 11:41 PM, BeeGryphon said:

Yeah, you're never going to know 100% I feel. I could understand why someone might choose to never have snails (on purpose... I got some hitchhikers myself I discovered just this last weekend lol). By the same token, I don't think I'll ever get fish from a large pet department store because I think the likelihood that they'll be sick is too high, but some people don't really have a choice and others don't mind the extra work of making sure they're healthy, or might even like the challenge. Obviously we don't want to endanger our tanks, but I don't think it's right to say you must absolutely never do or always do this that or the other thing. The fun thing I've found with this forum versus just reading articles is there are so many ways to do things. Everyone has different preferences or things that work best for them. It's fun to see people do things I never would have thought of, or that look very interesting but aren't for me! Just like letting the tank feed itself. I've heard of basically self maintaining tanks but wouldn't have thought there are people who just don't feed their fish at all.

Yea. Learning experiences is always good, ss long as you accept the fact that experiences are far from stating facts. They help to foresee some potential situations tho and help to widen your perspective.

Fishkeeping feels so grey in general and far from being a black and white. Some people talk their opinion as a fact but it really is not. It is usually just one way of doing something. 

On 4/11/2023 at 9:38 PM, Guppysnail said:

The part I disagree with him on is there being only one “right way” to do things. Not even 2 of my tanks run identical or require me to feed them as often/much. 
There are so many ways to achieve a healthy thriving tank. 

+ 1 to this one exactly.

[Flying fox 6523]

On 4/11/2023 at 1:33 PM, Pepere said:

Father Fish lost me when he was talking about water having electromagnetic memory….

 

Never change your water, a fish that has been in a tank for a long time in the same water will get sick if you put it in fresh water…

 

yeah, that is sort of the issue with old tank syndrome isnt it.  The fish slowly acclimates over time and doesnt do well with sudden change…

Bodies of water without outflows become salt lakes….

 

I dont deny he makes some points in his videos,  but I just cant take it over all…

 

I listened to a few of his videos & I got lost with the way he 
explains things, like he drags it out to long, I'm 1 that's looking 
for a simple solution with out beating around the bush on it.

[neitherman]

On 4/11/2023 at 10:33 AM, Pepere said:

Father Fish lost me when he was talking about water having electromagnetic memory…

 

Like the electromagnetism that helps bind hydrogen atoms to oxygen atoms (or was that the strong nuclear force...)

[Jimmy Cleveland]

I want to try his way but I'd have to grow just the microbs for 5 months or so and way under stock it. But there has to be all kinda life good and bad if you start pulling stuff out of local water ways I don't think I'd use fish store fish tho

He says taste your water 😂 

[MattyM]

There’s a shot in the video of FF talking about over feeding while some guy is dumping bloodworms into his tank.

My fish noticed this and told me if I ever stopped feeding bloodworms they would flat out kill me 🔪🩸

[Biotope Biologist]

There is definitely merit to it but I think going so far as not feeding or supplementing the tank might doom it to fail. 
 

As someone who strives to make a complete ‘ecosystem’ I admit I do it mostly out of laziness and to ease my anxiety. Having animals and plants do the work for me (and much more efficiently) makes my job as an aquarist pretty easy. Now that spring is here I keep trying to coax the midges into my place to give me some free bloodworms!

[RockMongler]

Yeah, I don't think gravel is anymore of a 'cesspool' than sand.  Mulm builds up no matter what substrate you have, and I think it's just oftenmore obvious sitting on top of sand, and sitting between gravel grains.  And that 'cesspool' is still good fertilizer for plants, and junk for bacteria and substrate worms to eat and process. 

I do try to aim for as close to an ecosystem as I can get, but it's still a glass box of water inside my home that I have significant control over.  Sure, I could probably go weeks without feeding my fish without any major impact on the vertebrates in my tank, but they would probably be less content.  I generally overfeed, because anything the fish don't get, the shrimp will get, and what the shrimp don't get, the snails get.  And what the snails don't get, the detritus worms get.  All of that stuff getting got, turns into fertilizer for my plants.  Most of my nutrients and dissolved stuff gets pulled out in the form of a weekly duckweed removal, and the monthly water changes can refresh certain ions in the water (i have rock hard water) and pull out some stuff that might be building up, unused by the plants.  

Our tanks are not nature.  They are a very small microsystem.  They don't have the advantage of direct sunlight or organisms from outside interacting with their water, bringing food and nutrients.  We have to provide that food and those nutrients.

[Darax]

Do not just read the headline in his thumbnails, watch the whole videos. For instance, he's clear that if you have FRY you should be feeding MORE frequently, not less.  Many of his videos have the same pattern of reasonable advice in the thumbnail so long as you watch the video and understand the context.