Please can someone help me figure out what’s happening to my fish?

[sharkboxed]

So my betta Shark is losing colors again. I asked around earlier and everyone seems convinced it’s just him marbling, but I think otherwise. I’m 99,9% sure it’s not marbling, because I know my fish, and they are not acting right.

Shark dealt with camallanus worms for a bit, and survived (the medicine taking out both my female platy, leaving 4 fry behind), and seemed to be recovering well because his colors were vibrant and coming back, and everything seemed to be fine, until I left for a week and left my dad to feed them. I think it’s worth mentioning that I moved my snail over to my other 60L tank during that week to help with cycling (long story).

When I came back, first of all my snail in the other tank was motionless, while everyone else seemed fine. Second of all, the other tank was in ruins. Plants had melted, floater’s roots were DARK brown, parameters were wack (except ammonia was 0 and I think nitrites and nitrates weren’t all that off) and Shark was back to having lost color, most of the blue I had left him with now gone. The platy fry were acting fine, but he seemed off. He still was active and happy to see me but seemed slower?? I did a water change of course and since I thought it was those damned camallanus worms coming back (since I had not dosed again after the 3 weeks) I dosed in some medicine for that. He didn’t seem to get better, if not worse. I also moved the snail back to the tank when I came home again by the way.

 

I took a video of him at night and he had some weird green ish yellow spots all over him which I was convinced was velvet, so I treated the tank with esha exit for 3 days, and still no improvement. I did a water change again, but this time I didn’t add any medicine besides a sprinkle of aquarium salt.

That’s now. Shark is continuously losing color, my snail is REALLY slow and barely moves anymore when he used to be super fast and now one of the oldest platy baby is acting really lethargic. Like uncharacteristically lethargic and only wants to hide and lay at the bottom. These platy are ALWAYS active and almost never hide, and are always excited when I come up to the tank along with Shark.

That’s what ticked me off that this is not marbling. Something is seriously off with this tank and I don’t know what. And I’m determined to figure this out, if it takes me to go into debt then so be it.

Everyone is still eating happily, except the platy baby that takes a bit to figure out the food is even there and spits some out sometimes.

Tank information:

Size: 60L long

Stock: 4 platy fry, 1 oto, 1 mystery snail, 1 male betta

Filtered with a PAT mini filter and has a heater (81F)

Parameters are;

PH: 6,4

KH: 3*

GH: <6*

Chlorine: 0

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: 0

Ammonia: 0

Water changes every week about 50% on Fridays or Thursdays.

Here is Shark before anything happened:

This is Shark while having the camallanus worms:

This is Shark in recovery (February 13th 2023), note the tail color and how it’s ripped, he’s either tail biting or I have no idea, hopefully you guys know:

This is Shark with the yellow and green ish stuff all over him (taken with flash on phone with lights off):

This is Shark today. He seems vibrant but he is still losing colors and becoming whiter by the day:

I should mention that the red on his face always varies. Sometimes it’s pink ish on his face and stomach, sometimes his stomach and face is blood red, and sometimes it’s in between. I’ve looked it up and got no results though so if this is related then please let me know.

This is my platy baby that’s acting lethargic:

https://i.imgur.com/tm1gIie.mp4

Please let me know something, anything you got. I’m sick and tired of watching my tank fall apart, and I want to solve this as soon as I can. Any info you need I’m happy to provide! 

[Theplatymaster]

@Coluis the disease expert on here.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I don’t feel like I can contribute a whole lot here, but maybe a little tip or two. If the snail was meant to cycle a tank and it was exposed to ammonia or nitrite, snails really don’t do well with that. It may have weakened its immune system. Snails also do not do well at all with meds. Even meds that say snail safe. Mystery snails should have a pH of at least 7.

The tail biting may be caused by the breeder box. If the betta was moved from a tank into a smaller area with less swimming room, he may tail bite. I’ve been on another thread where a betta was moved from a 5gallon tank to a 2 gal and he bit his tail off. 

One thing that may help if you are not doing it already is Indian Almond Leaves.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[sharkboxed]

@Chick-In-Of-TheSea Ohhh that might explain that. It was meant to help with the cycling, since I had to throw away the sponge and deep clean the filter in that tank because of a bacteria that was there still that killed both my bettas in the exact same way, and the cycle was reset obviously, so now 6 neons and 3 amanos were supposed to be fish-in cycling the tank and prepare it for a betta too, but since I thought they couldn't produce enough I decided to move the snail in for a bit to help out, but I guess that didn't work out. He might have been exposed to nitrite, nitrate or ammonia then, although everyone else in there was fine. What I dont get is how the tank I removed him from got so out of whack from just that.

As for the tail biting, his tail got like that as he was sick with the camallanus worms, it started a bit before I noticed, and continued up until now as it looks all chewed up. He is a plakat by the way, I don't know how he managed to bite his own short tail but thats beyond me. His tankmates were 2 female platy that were always nice and never dared attack him, more so annoy him accidentally by swimming all over him when they were excited, but other than that they were just sweet little fish. Then theres the oto and mystery snail, the oto seems to do their own thing and doesnt really bother anyone and I doubt it would nip Shark's fins, and the snail of course it wouldn't. So I have absolutely no clue what is happening to his tail, my best guess is fin biting still, though he's no longer in the breeder box and hasn't been in a long time. 
And yes I have added an indian almond leaf in there!

[Colu]

What I think happened while you were away you had missed an  ammonia and nitrite spike that has weaken his immune system I don't think the colour change is anything sinister I think it's natural colour mutations the gold colour doesn't look like velvet to me I what I would do is add Indian almond leaves as they have antibacterial and antifungal properties depending on the quality of the leaves you might have to add one leaf per gallon to get a beneficial effect and aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 5 gallon at that level it shouldn't harm your plants if after two weeks your seeing no improvement or he get worse in the mean time give us an update @sharkboxed

[sharkboxed]

@Colu Hey, so I did that, but nothings changed. If anything everything’s worse.

One of the platy fry disappeared completely (it probably died then Shark ate it), and all the other fry also now are lethargic. I put Shark in the breeder box instead so he wouldn’t interfere with deaths, in case they were all just stressed  and Shark was the problem and so I could observe him closer.

But what I observed instead was that when I checked on him at night again (he wasn’t asleep) he was twitching violently as he swam. He was knocking/scraping against the breeder box walls  at times, but most importantly he was literally violently twitching, as if he kept getting electrocuted or something. Then he stopped and I only caught it again after a bit. I didn’t get to film it though.

I tested the water (besides ammonia, since that’s the only liquid test I have) with strips and everything was normal, except the fact that there is no nitrite or nitrate, maybe the cycle crashed? PH was low though, at yellow, dunno if that means anything.

I’m down to 3 platy fry, they’re all barely active and Shark is still active sometimes, but takes time to respond to me waving my fingers in front of the tank (I do this as interaction, he usually responds quickly, along with everyone else by swimming back and forth or following it).

so… twitching violently, color loss, and lethargy in everyone else, what could this be? The camallanus worms are back?

[Colu]

On 3/16/2023 at 8:00 AM, sharkboxed said:

@Colu Hey, so I did that, but nothings changed. If anything everything’s worse.

One of the platy fry disappeared completely (it probably died then Shark ate it), and all the other fry also now are lethargic. I put Shark in the breeder box instead so he wouldn’t interfere with deaths, in case they were all just stressed  and Shark was the problem and so I could observe him closer.

But what I observed instead was that when I checked on him at night again (he wasn’t asleep) he was twitching violently as he swam. He was knocking/scraping against the breeder box walls  at times, but most importantly he was literally violently twitching, as if he kept getting electrocuted or something. Then he stopped and I only caught it again after a bit. I didn’t get to film it though.

I tested the water (besides ammonia, since that’s the only liquid test I have) with strips and everything was normal, except the fact that there is no nitrite or nitrate, maybe the cycle crashed? PH was low though, at yellow, dunno if that means anything.

I’m down to 3 platy fry, they’re all barely active and Shark is still active sometimes, but takes time to respond to me waving my fingers in front of the tank (I do this as interaction, he usually responds quickly, along with everyone else by swimming back and forth or following it).

so… twitching violently, color loss, and lethargy in everyone else, what could this be? The camallanus worms are back?

Possible parasitic infections what is ammonia level as high levels of ammonia can cause the symptoms your seeing 

[sharkboxed]

@Colu Theres 0 ammonia when I tested it. But I dont deny that it might be the cause. What could cause the ammonia or nitrite to spike?
Also I got some more information, I was observing him from the table during dinner, and when one of the platy fry swam past him (while hes in a breeder box) he flared super big, although he doesn't flare at a mirror. Maybe some of this is stress induced? He's a natural predator (in fact that was his job when my 2 female platy were alive; population control), so the stress of not catching his prey might be contributing to the problems? Since the lethargic platy is now no longer hiding constantly and a little more active. Nothing is getting any worse for them though, they still all eat but are in general slower and hide much more often. I did notice the leaf of one of my plants completely rotted and seemingly had been eaten (like larva eat leaves or something). Honestly, when I was gone for that week, before that all my plants were green and thriving, but when I came back and everyone was sick, my plants also deteriorated, full of holes and melted. Dunno if that's important information, but that might be related? I dunno.
 

[Colu]

It could be stress causing your issue have you got another tank you could put your platys in and it sound like nutrient deficiencies with your plants when they get holes in the leaves keep up with the Indian almond leaves and salt if he's still lethargic then I would recommend doing a course of maracyn2 or kanaplex @sharkboxed

Edited March 27, 2023 by Colu

[sharkboxed]

@Colu I only have one seperate 30L tank that has a heater and a sponge filter, but it’s currently being occupied by my other betta that’s in quarantine. (Has been for about 2 weeks since I got him March 4th). I was gonna try to move him into the main tank (60L with 6 neons and 3 amano) today or tomorrow, but in case he doesn’t get along with them I have to move him back and rehome him :// so moving Shark to the quarantine tank would be really risky since I’ll risk more stress from being moved back and forth… If it really is the platy that are causing this, either I’ll have to try moving him in with the neons (they’re already competitive with food and stuff so he’ll probably be fine since he’s the same way) or I’ll have to rehome him. ://

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/12/2023 at 3:49 PM, sharkboxed said:

Shark dealt with camallanus worms for a bit, and survived (the medicine taking out both my female platy, leaving 4 fry behind), and seemed to be recovering well because his colors were vibrant and coming back, and everything seemed to be fine, until I left for a week and left my dad to feed them. I think it’s worth mentioning that I moved my snail over to my other 60L tank during that week to help with cycling (long story).

how did you treat the worms?  How many times with what medication?

On 3/12/2023 at 3:49 PM, sharkboxed said:

This is Shark while having the camallanus worms:

those worms are usually red in color. This looks like waste.  I am not sure if you're saying this is a worm?

On 3/12/2023 at 3:49 PM, sharkboxed said:

When I came back, first of all my snail in the other tank was motionless, while everyone else seemed fine. Second of all, the other tank was in ruins. Plants had melted, floater’s roots were DARK brown, parameters were wack (except ammonia was 0 and I think nitrites and nitrates weren’t all that off) and Shark was back to having lost color, most of the blue I had left him with now gone. The platy fry were acting fine, but he seemed off. He still was active and happy to see me but seemed slower?? I did a water change of course and since I thought it was those damned camallanus worms coming back (since I had not dosed again after the 3 weeks) I dosed in some medicine for that. He didn’t seem to get better, if not worse. I also moved the snail back to the tank when I came home again by the way.

A lot of this could be due to adding aquarium salt or other meds, not adding additional aeration, and the fish/inverts being stressed out.

--------

I've gone ahead and reviewed all photos and video.  I honestly, genuinely don't think anything is abnormal about the betta, but I would like to request the above clarifications before speaking further on that topic.

The way the platy was swimming in the video is a little weird.  This makes me want to dive into PH, Temperature as a reason for weirdness. 

Betta: https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/betta-fish-care-guide
PH: ~7.0
Temp: "Betta fish prefer temperatures around 80°F and tend to be much more active when kept in warmer waters."

Platy: https://badmanstropicalfish.com/platy-fish/ , https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/platy-care-guide
PH: 6.8-8.5 = generally ~7.4 is what I am thinking as "good"
Temp: 68-79F (I would use the middle value of a range)

Once we establish the temperature of the tank and PH, then we can discuss further.

 

On 3/12/2023 at 3:49 PM, sharkboxed said:

Parameters are;

PH: 6,4

KH: 3*

GH: <6*

Chlorine: 0

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: 0

Ammonia: 0

PH seems really low, which can cause all the symptoms you're seeing in the platys.

[Cinnebuns]

On 3/19/2023 at 1:35 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

PH seems really low, which can cause all the symptoms you're seeing in the platys.

That low of PH also will slow down snails and erode their shell. It will eventually KILL snails. 

I also want to 2nd @nabokovfan87 comment about salt and the snail. That's def a factor it in slowing down as well. Tbh, the combo of salt and that low of a PH, right now that snail is at a very high risk of dying. 

On 3/12/2023 at 6:42 PM, sharkboxed said:

As for the tail biting, his tail got like that as he was sick with the camallanus worms, it started a bit before I noticed, and continued up until now as it looks all chewed up. He is a plakat by the way, I don't know how he managed to bite his own short tail but thats beyond me

I just posted about this on another thread. Bettas a known to bite their own tails. We have bred them to have large flowing tails that their bodies aren't strong enough to support. Many of them figure out they can swim more easily without the fins and they self mutilate. 

Try reducing his stress. Turn the lights down. And don't bother him for awhile. If that doesn't work then move him out for a day. Rearrange the tank and put him back in. It doesn't always work and some bettas will self mutilate for life but it's worth trying. 

[sharkboxed]

@nabokovfan87 @Cinnebuns Hi! The photo I provided was not of the actual camallanus worms, this was a day or two before I saw them sticking out, just a color reference. I treated the whole tank with Nematol by sera, I don't remember exactly how long but I followed the instructions so I'm pretty sure it was for 2 days. Shark got better but my 2 platy passed, one after the other. I'm not too concerned about that as it said there could be death in catfish, livebearers etc in the instructions. As for the snail, it's still weak, and I find it often just motionless on the ground until it moves again a while later. Super slow though. I haven't added any salt during my last water changes, and I have no clue how to raise the PH as it kinda raises itself naturally after a while, at least I think so. 
But I have an update!

So this weekend I kinda swapped my two bettas, so the white one went into the 60L and Shark went into the hospital tank. Immediately the day after, the platy were up and going, happy as ever no sign of lethargy, Shark is regaining color in his tail, and FINALLY I managed to flare him. Back in the 54L he'd never flare at a mirror, he'd kinda just... stare. He'd flare at the platy occasionally though. Now I have successfully flared him both when moving him AND with the mirror. I think that's progress.
So I'm pretty sure the mutual issue in Shark's tank was the platy, and he just didnt get along with them.

Although, I can't have him in the hospital tank permanantly, as I travel during christmas and summer and rely on autofeeders that dispenses way too much for one fish (which is why I have community tanks), so I'm thinking of swapping them again after he gets better, Shark goes with the neons and white guy goes with the platys. He doesn't seem to react to the neons when I tested it while I was moving him but, if he doesn't get along with them either then I'll have to rehome him, which I'm hoping I wont have to do. 
The neon's tank is full of hiding places, so that probably will help. I'm thinking the lack of hiding places might have contributed a bit to the stress as well.

This is the 54L before:

This is the 54L after (today):

This is the neon tank (ignore the test just laying there it's from yesterday LMAO):

Now that there's more hiding places maybe it'll go better when I move white dude in, he's pretty chill and eats a bit slower (since he's a little blind I think), so moving him into the 54L can be beneficial as they arent aggressive when it's feeding time and theres also a feeding ring to help him know where the food is.
Shark is pretty aggressive during feeding time and eats fast, so they're a bit more compatible that way. (aggressive as in eats aggressively, he doesn't attack or anything dont worry). 
Hopefully, I won't have to rehome anyone and my plan is successful. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/20/2023 at 8:30 AM, sharkboxed said:

I treated the whole tank with Nematol by sera, I don't remember exactly how long but I followed the instructions so I'm pretty sure it was for 2 days. Shark got better but my 2 platy passed, one after the other. I'm not too concerned about that as it said there could be death in catfish, livebearers etc in the instructions.

@Odd DuckAAn

Any idea why this is supposed to have a risk for live-bearers? Something to do with birthing fry?

Ingredients:

Composition per 100 ml: emamectin benzoate 320 mg.

Directions I saw on sera website only listed a risk to invertebrates.

Do not combine with medications. Catfish and loaches may react sensitive. Nematol
is not tolerated by invertebrates.

[sharkboxed]

@nabokovfan87 I have no clue, but in the instruction paper it says "losses may occur in case of gouramis, catfish, loaches and livebearers (e.g. guppies, platies). Nematol is not tolerated  by invertebrates."

The two platy were the only losses though, my oto, snail, 4 baby platy I did not know existed until I did a 90% water change after the treatment, and Shark were fine, not phased at all. I do know that the first female I lost was fine the day before, swimming around normally then suddenly the next morning she was floating at the top, then I went to school and when I came back my other female was a bit more lethargic (and Shark flared at her multiple times, which had never happened before) and when I checked on her again at 1 AM she was not dead yet but pointed downward behind the decor in the exact same spot my other female was floating the other day breathing heavily, the next morning she had passed, in the exact same spot which is weird I'll be honest. But since everyone else was fine and the instructions said there could be losses, I wasn't too worried, although I was sad about it.

[sharkboxed]

@nabokovfan87 @Colu Right so I’m wrong again, I accidentally spotted this and I’m PRETTY sure this is probably why he’s been twitching.

So I’m thinking worms again, what are y’all’s thoughts? I have tremazol by sera on hand atm which was what I treated him with before I knew it was camallanus last time.

here’s the full video:

 

[Colu]

I can't tell off your picture and your video hasn't uploaded @sharkboxed

[sharkboxed]

@Colu Yeah sorry it’s an Imgur link, if you’re on PC just click the icon and it’ll take you there. Dunno how to upload a video here besides that. You’ll have to slow down the video and probably zoom in and pause it to see it as he moves a lot.

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/20/2023 at 2:17 PM, sharkboxed said:

Dunno how to upload a video here besides that.

You can upload to youtube and then share an unlisted link.

[sharkboxed]

@Colu @nabokovfan87 

Here it is, it’s only 4 seconds long though you’ll have to zoom in and all that.

it’s still there today as well. Should I use medicine?

[Colu]

Looks like an injury with a bit of tissue hanging off @sharkboxed

[sharkboxed]

@Colu long and white? All the decor and stuff in the hospital tank is baby proofed, everything is away from the corners and no sharp edges, don’t see a way he could injure himself..

[Colu]

On 3/21/2023 at 4:43 PM, sharkboxed said:

@Colu long and white? All the decor and stuff in the hospital tank is baby proofed, everything is away from the corners and no sharp edges, don’t see a way he could injure himself..

That what it looks like to me an injury the type of parasites that borrows into the skin and stick out like that would be anchor worms they are more common in pond or wild caught fish I don't think it that 

[Odd Duck]

On 3/20/2023 at 12:55 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

@Odd DuckAAn

Any idea why this is supposed to have a risk for live-bearers? Something to do with birthing fry?

Ingredients:

Composition per 100 ml: emamectin benzoate 320 mg.

Directions I saw on sera website only listed a risk to invertebrates.

Do not combine with medications. Catfish and loaches may react sensitive. Nematol
is not tolerated by invertebrates.

I found a study that showed transient decreased fecundity (breeding/birth rate) in zebra danios from emamectin, and it was slightly worse in comparison to ivermectin (related drug) so I imagine that wouldn’t be a surprising effect.  The study done in lobsters showed they couldn’t molt normally and died from emamectin.  I didn’t see anything about snails with a fairly quick search.  It also wasn’t as effective at deworming compared to ivermectin but carried lower risks of illness and death overall in one study (and now I can’t remember what species of fish they were studying).  Sorry, a bit of morning brain.  I didn’t get home until 4:15 am (supposed to get off at 10:00 pm 🤷🏻‍♀️) and now it’s time to get ready for work again.

[Odd Duck]

Is that little white bit sticking up from his skin or sticking out from his gill cover?  Anchor worms can get established in domestic bred fish, too.  Lots less common in male bettas because they are kept solitary because of their nature.  I wouldn’t rule it out yet.  Anchor worm treatment can be problematic and needs different meds than most other parasites.

Here is a couple options for removing anchor worms.  It’s not in my usual, user friendly format with explanations, and I’ve got to get ready for work.  I’ll come back and explain more later if I get the chance but yesterday was super busy so I might not be able to explain better until I’m off on Thursday.

Anchorworm treatment: lufenuron at 0.1 mg/L - will likely kill snails and shrimp.

Diflubenzuron/Dimilin-X? 0.03 mg/L for 1 week effective and safe for fish.   Liquid: 1 tsp Tx 500 gallons so 1 mls Tx 100 gallons. 0.1 mls/10 gallons.  Repeat dosing in 3-5 days.  Max treatment is 3 dosages per month.  Will kill all crustaceans and likely snails.