Please can someone help me figure out what’s happening to my fish?

[sharkboxed]

@Odd Duck I flared him and had a look, theres nothing IN the gills themselves, the thing looks like its coming from in between?? If that makes sense?? when not flared its right on the gill cover, bordering the inside, the scales look a bit broken behind the gill cover though.
He is currently in a hospital tank by himself, so there's no issue with any medicine. 

I'm in Norway by the way, so I'm not sure I have any specifics you can get in the US.
In my LFS theres only products by sera and esha, and I currently have tremazol, nematol and baktopur by sera and Exit by esha on hand, although I'm more than willing to go buy something else if none of these are relevant. I can also buy something off amazon but that might take a while to get here.
Any specifics I could get? 

[Odd Duck]

On 3/21/2023 at 1:52 PM, sharkboxed said:

@Odd Duck I flared him and had a look, theres nothing IN the gills themselves, the thing looks like its coming from in between?? If that makes sense?? when not flared its right on the gill cover, bordering the inside, the scales look a bit broken behind the gill cover though.
He is currently in a hospital tank by himself, so there's no issue with any medicine. 

I'm in Norway by the way, so I'm not sure I have any specifics you can get in the US.
In my LFS theres only products by sera and esha, and I currently have tremazol, nematol and baktopur by sera and Exit by esha on hand, although I'm more than willing to go buy something else if none of these are relevant. I can also buy something off amazon but that might take a while to get here.
Any specifics I could get? 

Since it’s on the margin of the gill cover and there are scales disrupted next to it I think @Colu is right with saying it’s probably a minor injury.  That should resolve in just a few days to a week.  In that case it’s just a matter of keeping the water pristine, low dose salt (one tablespoon per 5 to 10 gallons) and some Indian almond leaves (IAL’s) in the water, or at least use some IAL tea in the water if you don’t like the leaves themselves in the tank.  Steep them in very hot water for at least several minutes or up to an hour, then use the tea after it’s cooled to tank temperature.  I’ve been known to boil live oak leaves to get tannins and I’ve also used rooibos tea (which is delicious, by the way) for tannins.

I’ve not found studies on using tannins from oak leaves or from rooibos tea vs IAL’s for fish, but I figure there’s not likely to be such a big difference in tannins that it matters if you can’t get IAL’s.  There are some rather vague studies with IAL’s in fish and more vague studies with rooibos tea in people, but no truly definitive studies.  Tannins do have antimicrobial and antifungal effects, it just isn’t solidly proven to help.  There’s just enough decent evidence I still recommend them, especially for bettas since the best study was done with Betta splendens.

[Odd Duck]

I apologize for taking so long to answer.  My schedule turned out very hectic this week with my scheduled 10 hour shift becoming 16 hours, next 10 hours turned into 13, finally last night 10 hours was only 10.5.  Whew!  😆  It’s what I get for doing emergency work.  But the severe foot and leg wound closed up very nicely and the flap is holding as well as can be expected considering the nature of the injury.  If I ever don’t answer quickly, I’m sorry, but it can be days between getting on the forum, especially early in the week (Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday).

[sharkboxed]

@Odd Duck No worries! I completely understand! And yeah you were right, its gone now but the scales are still a bit messed up. he's got 2 indian almond leaves in with him, but the brown water is now gone since I did water changes... I'm not home at the moment, but last time I checked on friday he's active, eating well and interactive with the surroundings. Only thing I'm worried about is still his colors and some scales still missing and looking a bit broken ish. That along with his still not healing tail. Doesn't seem like its getting any worse though, it's just not healing.

[Odd Duck]

It will take time for scales to get replaced and they can have permanent scarring. As long as it looks like it’s stable and not worsening, just watch close and see what happens. At the first hint of any worsening, post new pics for us. We’re always happy to take a look. The hive mind is powerful!

[sharkboxed]

@Odd Duck thank you!

I do have some more concerns over him. His body is like.. covered in holes, it looks kinda like chipped paint, along with more scarring which shouldn’t be possible because I’ve checked and carefully placed all the hides and even took one out that was a bit risky.
His top fin that was coloring up nicely now has a dot that’s discoloring again, and he’s acting weird. His fins are clamped up until I catch his attention, then he fluffs them up and acts all playful. But otherwise he’s just kinda slower and acting all weird, plus his tail hasn’t healed even though my neon who had its tail bitten off like MONTHS after Shark’s tail got like that, its  tail is almost completely back, so I don’t understand what’s going on for it to take THAT long. (The neon issue was resolved btw don’t worry)

Only good thing I noticed is that his pectoral fins are coloring up a LOT, like before they were both transparent but now one is almost full white with some dots of blue and the other is blue with a few dots of white, but that’s where the good things end.

He’s eating well though, so I don’t really know what’s going on, any clue?

Here’s the holes along with scarringface seems to be peeling off or something (just noticed actually)

[Odd Duck]

Some of that’s looking like it might be what’s called dragon scales.  They are thickened scales and often start slowly covering the fish.  I think they can look a bit weird as they transition but I’m not sure what it looks like as the scales are shifting from “normal” to dragon scales since I haven’t had a betta with this condition before.  I know it’s a genetic thing that’s been purposely bred for, so nothing needs to be done for it unless it starts covering the eyes.  Then the only thing would be an extremely delicate surgery by a vet with very careful, meticulous skills.  The only problem I know of from dragon scaling is if it starts to cover the eyes (diamond eye).  I don’t think it causes problems elsewhere on the body.  They end up looking kind of armored.

There does look to be some scarring on your buddy but some of that looks thicker than “normal” like I would expect from dragon scales.  At this point, see if you can find more info about dragon scales.  It isn’t something I’ve looked into much other than to avoid it because I didn’t want to deal with doing a surgery if a betta got diamond eye from it.

[sharkboxed]

@Odd Duck Ohhh, do they just grow in like that? I didn’t know :0

He’s not lacking in vision or have any disadvantages that I can see though, quite the opposite actually, I can just slightly appear in the doorway and he’s already up and greeting me haha

but what about the holes on him though? When I look at them they look like little  wounds shaped as pinholes, and it’s all over him, plus his fins are all clamped up until I get his attention to which he fluffs them up for a bit.

here’s him 3 weeks ago when I flared him, no holes in sight.

And this is now, I didn’t get a good picture because he doesn’t stand still but all these holes are spread throughout his body, but I haven’t seen them on the blue parts I think.

the temperature is at about 80 F, so it’s not the temperature that’s causing the clamping.. and his tail isn’t growing back at all, the coloring is, however, returning.

I hope this isn’t some sort of bacteria or something that’s eating him alive…

Edited April 12, 2023 by sharkboxed

[Odd Duck]

In the pics I can’t tell if those are holes or if they are scales that are converting to the dragon scales.  As I said, I’ve never had a betta with the dragon scale genes so I don’t know what the scales look like as they transition.  The holes I think you’re referring to look like they are centered in each scale, which is why I’m wondering if those are scales in mid-conversion with the thickened, white dragon scale effect at the margins but normal, dark blue pigmented centers to each scale making it look like a hole.  It wouldn’t be typical to have holes develop in the center of scales.  That’s more likely to happen at the margins of scales where a parasite could have a better chance of getting directly to the skin.

As far as his tail, can you see any clear margin developing?  That would be a sign of healing.  If you aren’t seeing any healing, could he be fin-nipping and causing new wounds so he isn’t healing?  Can you get pics of the tail for me?

[sharkboxed]

@Odd Duck

well, there’s no need for this thread anymore, Shark passed away today.

it was so sudden, the 12th of April after I fed him he started acting weird and slow, stopping and staring at the distance all bloated. I decided I’d just fast him the next day after and see if he gets better, and that morning he was WAY slower, wouldn’t react to anything while just standing in place. His stomach was white suddenly, when it was bright red the day before.

I left for school and I came back to find him nowhere, when he’d usually already be up and greeting me by the time I get in the doorway. He was in his hide, laying but his tail was seemingly being floated up. He wasn’t moving at all but not breathing heavily. I lifted the hide and moved him into a breeder box and did a water change  (tested the water first though and the parameters were perfect). 
I checked and he didn’t seem to be visibly pineconing anywhere, and his bloating was going down, but he just got worse and worse. I thought it was constipation so I dosed Epsom salt (1 tsp per 9L), but it didn’t seem to help. He just got worse. I hadn’t fed him at all since 12th of April btw.

I woke up today, and he seemed weak, and I thought for sure I’d come home to a dead fish. I was right. I came home from school and he was twisted and seemingly died half breath (a deep one it was wide open, his beard was flaring a little), and standing vertically, his tail floating. I decided I’d investigate so I could try to pinpoint what happened, and discovered that his gills were completely white. The actual gills, I’m not sure if that’s cuz he’s dead or if that was a symptom. It also started after I’d added the rest of some water conditioner cuz I hadn’t changed his water since last week (I’ve been really busy and myself have been a bit weak, so I couldn’t do it until that day), and something that looked like salt now that I think about it kinda dropped in there with him. I assumed at the time it might’ve been either 2 pieces of aquarium salt that leaked on my table at some point and it just got in there somehow, or it was some dried flakes of water the conditioner. Either way I didn’t think much of it, but that might’ve contributed somehow.

I took a picture of him like that because I found it so bizarre how his head was twisted like that and him being vertical. Since it’s obviously a dead fish I won’t add it here instantly but I’ll send a Imgur link.

https://imgur.com/a/niSFAbl
It doesn’t look like much but it’s worse if you see from the side (which I didn’t take a picture of). It looked more twisted before but this is after I moved around the breeder box to examine him so it’s a bit more fixed. If you have any idea of what happened, please let me know.

rest in peace Shark 😞 

 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I'm very sorry you lost him. Betta fish are not easy fish. 

[Odd Duck]

So sorry for your loss.  I can’t tell from the pic what might have happened.  White gills would be a bit unusual but not sure what might have caused it other than blood loss.  He’s so small Amy blood would have fully dispersed but there aren’t any obvious injuries in the pic and feel sure you would have checked him over thoroughly and mentioned an injury.  I suppose it could have been an internal injury, but that’s pure speculation.

[sharkboxed]

@xXInkedPhoenixX thank you, I appreciate it :))

@Odd Duck thank you. I’ll be honest I’m pretty sure it might’ve began as constipation.

He was a bit thin, so I thought feeding a little more would help him out with the recovery. It was always one feeding person day, and I should have switched back and forth from bloodworms like I used to, but again I had no energy to do anything at all especially after school, so since feeding time is when I arrive home, during that time he was on a betta flake diet every day. It wasn’t too much either, I sprinkled in less than I do for my neon tank. (which I can’t feed much because they start having trouble with their swim bladder or something with their own flakes)

April 12th I realized I might’ve accidentally given too much, since right after eating his stomach was a bit bigger than usual and he was a bit slower too, so realizing my mistake I said I’d fast him for a day or 2 to see if it helped. So the next day I checked during the morning and his stomach had gone from blood red (which he had before) to completely white, still bloated. Then I arrived after school, he was lethargic and his tail was floating, so I moved him to a breeder box so he had easier access to the surface, did a 50% water change and dosed the Epsom salt. Then he passed.

while I was observing him in the breeder box while he was alive, I did notice first off that it looked like there was a piece of light brown poo sticking out, but that’s impossible because it should be red first of all (the flakes he ate are red and his poop is always some sort of red if not dark brown, never light brown) and attached to it was what seemed like white stringy  poo. Then, today before I went to school and he was till alive, I checked up on his stomach and it DID seem to be pineconing, just on his stomach, nowhere else. Just slightly. And this time he wasn’t at the bottom of the box, he was floating up top. Not upside down, he was up right.

That’s all I noticed though, besides the obvious color fading he had from the agony he was probably in. 
I did successfully flare him with a pen up until today though, which was meant to be so he’d maybe force it out or something like my other betta does (unintentionally found out about it as I wanted to take a picture of him flaring and ended up with a giant bowel movement photobombing the entire thing LMAO)

So that’s about all the info I have of him. You got any clue? Like the stomach maybe exploded or something?
 

[Odd Duck]

White stringy poop could have definitely been intestinal parasites.  Other than that, it’s very difficult to tell.