Doke Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) Hello!Tank Info: 23 gallon AOI 3 stage sump filtration with coarse sponge, an absurd amount of ceramic rings, finer sponge, and powerhead. Also running an airstone Stocking: 3 endlers (all male), 16 pygmy corys, 11 CPDs, 5 cherry shrimp, 2 zebra nerite snails Heavily planted Tank age: 4mos/26ish wks Water Parameters: pH: 7.8-8 Nitrates: 20-40ppm (depending on how recently i changed water...typically I change 20% weekly) Hardness: GH-350ppm Nitrite: 0ppm Ammonia: 0ppm KH/Buffer: 300ppm Water Temperature: 74.5 First time poster here. This is my first foray into the aquarium world and I have been experiencing an incredibly frustrating mystery die-off of my endlers. The only fish deaths I have experienced have been with the endlers (I started with 9 male endlers and am down to 3). All 9 seemed 100% for the first 8wks, and then on week 9 one randomly died overnight. No skinniness, no aggression, no sign of camallanus worms, no scale or fin damage, no fin clamping, no fungus, no bent spine, no pineconing, no bloat, no visible external disease other than some very occasional (couple times a week) flashing (currently on wk 4 so 2nd treatment with paracleanse for gill flukes, and the treatment seems to be addressing the flashing in all the fish). The only indicator of an unhealthy fish was 12hrs before death the fish would lay on the substrate instead of swimming around, which is obviously an indicator something is wrong but I have no idea what. As soon as I lost the first fish I tested all my parameters for a spike in ammonia/nitrite/nitrate - nada....Ph or temperature fluctuation - nada. No aerosols have been sprayed around the tank and no new plant or fish additions were made. All fish go through a 3 wk quarantine at my LFS as well (which ik know leaves room for parasites to still be an issue but I have been treating with paracleanse in the display tank and salt in a hospital tank) So I assumed it was something random and maybe just a weak fish. Another couple weeks go by and I lost 2 more. Another week and 1 more. Then 2 more. In each situation the fish that died looked and acted 100%, eating and swimming well, but then 12hrs before death would hang out on the bottom of the substrate then die usually overnight. The deaths have not been tied to any particular food (I feed a rotation of hikari vibra bites, micro pellets, algae wafers, blanched peas, and freeze dried daphnia). No pattern of deaths with water changes. I know that sometimes cities will do an extra strong pulse of chlorine after heavy rain so I always make sure to compensate with a heavier dosage of dechlorinator (i use API aqua essential which is like Prime) and I treat only the new water prior to it being added. But like I said no pattern of death with water changes. I am really at a lost. I do know that my water is extremely hard but if it was the hardness that was hurting the fish and causing some kind of internal organ failure, I would think the pygmy corys and CPDs would suffer but they are all doing fantastic (They were all breed in SoCal in the same extremely hard water so they seem to be used to it). My local fish store (which is really great) has absolutely no idea whats going on. It is very clearly something that is only affecting my endlers as all the other inhabitants are doing great, but I find it so odd considering endlers are suppose to be so hardy and corys and cherry shrimp can be more sensitive. For the last month I've ran a bubbler in addition to the powerhead to make sure it was not a water oxygenation issue (my moss is pearling so I dont its that) but that has not seemed to low the deaths down. I have tried to not throw meds at the fish without identifying what the disease but I have gone through all the levels of the Co-Op Salt treatment in a 10g hospital tank for a couple of the endlers and they still died (no obvious water parameters issues in the hopsital tank either and I ran a cycled sponge filter that I keep in my main display tank). I've held off treating with ich-X, Kanaplex, Maracyn, Jungle Fizz, and Maracyn 2 as I have not see any identifiers to diagnose the problem, but I do have all these meds on hand, in addition to paracleanse, aquarium salt, and prazipro. I have some activated carbon media to run after this treatment of paracleanse in case there is some unknown contaminant killing them (but again I feel like it should damage the other occupants) Currently 2 of the last 3 endlers are doing and looking great, 1 has started to show what I know to be the predicator of death in the last 2hrs (that would be the pictured yellow cobra endler). A part of me is just anticipating I will end up losing all of my endlers and I just need to give up on the species. Current plan is 4-6wks after last death start a 6wk quarantine for some ricefish to replace the endlers. Hoping that whatever killed the endlers doesnt kill them. Any insight or guesses would be much appreciated. I think I've read close to 100hrs of articles, studies, forums, and blogs to identify what is going on and I feel no closer to stopping the endler deaths. Best Jordan As far as what is regularly added to the tank water its only iron (1/2 dosage weekly) and then dechlorinator for water changes. No other ferts or additives Edited January 25, 2023 by Doke realized i said charcoal instead of carbon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSwissAquarist Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 Livebearers disease could be a possibility, or genetic weakness.....I'm stumped. You've tried everything, and explored most of the possibilities. The only possibilities I can think of is internal parasites/diseases, but it's only affecting the Endlers...??? @Guppysnail @Colu @nabokovfan87 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabokovfan87 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) On 1/24/2023 at 6:12 PM, Doke said: pH: 7.8-8 Nitrates: 20-40ppm (depending on how recently i changed water...typically I change 20% weekly) This stands out to me.... I'll keep reading, verify some parameters. On 1/24/2023 at 6:12 PM, Doke said: First time poster here. This is my first foray into the aquarium world and I have been experiencing an incredibly frustrating mystery die-off of my endlers. The only fish deaths I have experienced have been with the endlers (I started with 9 male endlers and am down to 3). All 9 seemed 100% for the first 8wks, and then on week 9 one randomly died overnight. No skinniness, no aggression, no sign of camallanus worms, no scale or fin damage, no fin clamping, no fungus, no bent spine, no pineconing, no bloat, no visible external disease other than some very occasional (couple times a week) flashing (currently on wk 4 so 2nd treatment with paracleanse for gill flukes, and the treatment seems to be addressing the flashing in all the fish). The only indicator of an unhealthy fish was 12hrs before death the fish would lay on the substrate instead of swimming around, which is obviously an indicator something is wrong but I have no idea what. PH issues usually means flashing. I'll look into that, but again, something to mention. Welcome to the forums, genuinely, let's get this figured out and glad to have you here. On 1/24/2023 at 6:12 PM, Doke said: In each situation the fish that died looked and acted 100%, eating and swimming well, but then 12hrs before death would hang out on the bottom of the substrate then die usually overnight. The deaths have not been tied to any particular food (I feed a rotation of hikari vibra bites, micro pellets, algae wafers, blanched peas, and freeze dried daphnia). No pattern of deaths with water changes. I know that sometimes cities will do an extra strong pulse of chlorine after heavy rain so I always make sure to compensate with a heavier dosage of dechlorinator (i use API aqua essential which is like Prime) and I treat only the new water prior to it being added. But like I said no pattern of death with water changes. In terms of food, are you feeding anything like frozen foods? Frozen spirulina brine specifically? The hikari algae wafers have algae but are mostly fish meal. Same with a lot of the other foods listed. Flake food, krill or spirulina flake might help to rule out any sort of internal bloat issues. If you can, try feeding frozen spirulina brine once a week at least. On 1/24/2023 at 6:12 PM, Doke said: Currently 2 of the last 3 endlers are doing and looking great, 1 has started to show what I know to be the predicator of death in the last 2hrs (that would be the pictured yellow cobra endler). A part of me is just anticipating I will end up losing all of my endlers and I just need to give up on the species. Current plan is 4-6wks after last death start a 6wk quarantine for some ricefish to replace the endlers. Hoping that whatever killed the endlers doesnt kill them. Any insight or guesses would be much appreciated. I think I've read close to 100hrs of articles, studies, forums, and blogs to identify what is going on and I feel no closer to stopping the endler deaths. I would opt towards starting with 30-50% water changes. Get the water clean of everything right now. A few of these now might be what the fish need to clear up and perk up. PH I am seeing up to 8.0, some up to 8.5, but as low as 6.5. Usually for me I shoot for the midrange as a target, which means 7.3-7.5 is the target. Temp, again is all over the place....https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/endlers-livebearer-care-guide Quote How to Set Up an Aquarium for Endlers When we say the Endler's livebearer is a hardy species, we mean that they can live in wide range of water parameters that might be considered nonideal for other aquarium fish. For example, you can keep them at room temperature in an aquarium without a heater. Also, they tolerate pH levels spanning from 6.5 to 8.5 and almost any water hardness (or GH). Of course, this is not to say that you can completely neglect their husbandry because like any fish, they can be prone to bacterial and fungal infections if the pH becomes too acidic or the nitrate level is extremely high. However, if you stay on top of their tank maintenance as you would with any other fish, they are very easygoing and will reward you with many babies. Another Source specifies warmer temps: Quote If breeding is the goal, fry have much better success in well-planted setups with tall, aquatic plants including Wisteria, Cabomba, Vallisneria spp., and floating plants like Water Lettuce with hanging tendrils for fry to hide in. Otherwise, tanks should be setup with sandy substrate, and plenty of open swimming space. Well-fed adults rarely consume fry, and should be fed high-quality omnivorous diets including small invertebrates, tropical flake, and some vegetal matter. With an affinity for warm, hard waters, Endler’s Livebearers breed more readily when waters are kept between 75 and 86°F, with a pH of 7 to 8.5, and hardness above 267 ppm. I would try to keep nitrates below 15. Specifically below 10, but if you're talking a very small fish, like these, then you should be able to keep them pretty low nitrates and have the plants do well... The nitrates you see from testing should be specifically from dosing in ferts, not from fish waste. Edited January 25, 2023 by nabokovfan87 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colu Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) your water parameters and temperature are fine i would just try and get your nitrates lower as @nabokovfan87suggested odd random deaths every now and then can be a parasitic infection but yours aren't showing any symptoms of a parasitic infections also I would have expected losses with your other fish and not just the endlers when they were flashing how often were they doing it @Doke Edited January 25, 2023 by Colu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOtrees Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 A couple things spring to mind. Groups of fish are more distantly related than we often realize, and this means there are plenty of diseases (bacterial, viral, fungal or parasitic) that are specific to certain groups. So your livebearer endlers are distant relatives to your cory catfish, and it's very possible that something affecting the endlers won't harm your cories. The pattern of mortality you're seeing, along with your great details about the tank and parameters, definitely suggests some sort of communicable, progressive but slow acting disease or parasite. And a lot of the common ones can be ruled out because you're not seeing the signs that typically go with them. I think we are often too quick to think we know everything there is to know about what diseases can affect our fish, and how to treat them. If I were in your situation (and I have been, in the past), I'd focus on clean water. All the courses of meds you've been throwing at the tank aren't fixing the problem, though I can see how you've got to that point and I'm not criticizing your choices thus far. 🙂 And the fact that they haven't worked does help in a sense because it tells us a bit about what the problem isn't likely to be. Put a mesh bag with activated carbon (the good stuff from the fish store, not the sticks from amazon) in your sump for a few months, and change out the carbon every couple weeks. Moving forward, I'd avoid adding any new livebearers for 3 months. At the end of that, if you still want some, throw in some cheap male guppies or endlers and see how they fare over say 2 months. If possible, buy from a hobbyist with healthy tanks, not from a fish store (I know you trust your store, but you don't know what you don't know). I also like your ricefish suggestion. Or look for one of the smaller rainbowfish like furcata, if you can find it. Looking forward to updates! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The endler guy Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 How did you acclimate them, most problems I have had with fish are due to not acclimating well or physical injuries Also I have had 3-5 (I don’t remember) adults and all but one baby disappeared and only found one or two dead bodies, got more from the same lfs and I now have a large colony, I think it was because I just plopped and dropped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppysnail Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 I’m sorry for your losses. Deaths without obvious symptoms are very frustrating. I can tell you your water parameters are fine. Mine are about the same and livebearers thrive. The harder higher ph is what they like. If I was in your situation and the only thing I saw was flashing occasionally my go to guess would also be gill flukes or parasites. Though I would think those would cause surface hovering. With full flukes once you notice a problem in my experience it is often too late. The damage to the gills has already been done making it to late. That often also opens them to secondary infections that kill them before visible symptoms show. Whenever issues occur I increase my water changes to keep whatever is in the tank to a minimum in hopes to buy myself some time. My next course of action after paracleanse would be my go to kanamycin and nitrofurazone both in the water. Kanaplax and jungle fungus tabs are what I use. Im not great at medication advice and reach out to others when I have issues I’m uncertain of. I look to @Coluand @Odd Duck 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The endler guy Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 Also could the medicating have a negative effect if nothing is wrong with them in terms of pathogens? It kind of sounds like they are stressed, then die due to that (admittedly I skimmed the original post, because no way is my feeble adhd brain able to read all that even when heavily medicated!) Could you provide your raw tap water parameters and if you are on well/ city water (I think I recall seeing a video talking about how dechlorinators can be bad for fish) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The endler guy Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 Your time frames are quite large, i wonder if they are dying from old age, do you think you can approximate the age because endlers only live a couple years at most and higher temps can expedite their life cycle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doke Posted January 25, 2023 Author Share Posted January 25, 2023 On 1/25/2023 at 4:03 AM, Colu said: when they were flashing how often were they doing it @Doke Thanks for chiming in @Colu (have read many...many of your posts in the hunt to diagnose whats going on). I would say as far as flashing goes, it was highly variable. I work from home so I can watch my tank essentially non-top and I might go a week only seeing 1 pygmy cory flash 2-3x in quick succession on 1 day. Or I might see a couple corys and 1 or 2 endlers flash once a day a few days in a row. It was never more than a few fish at a time, and it was never constant. It would be like 2x-3x in a 60sec window and then done for the day-several days. This morning I did my second dose of paracleanse for the week and immediately after 1 of the pygmys flashed twice (im assuming this is the meds irritating the flukes). I plan on doing a 3rd round of treatment but with prazipro to knockout anything paracleanse didnt. As of this morning Nitrates are in the 10-15ppm. I listed the range up to 40 as they have gotten that high before but they tend to float right around 20ppm. I didn't want to keep the nitrates too much lower as my understanding was that plants grew best in the 20-40 range. But I can certainly continue to make sure to keep them closer to 10-20ppm. Could nitrates having gotten to 40ppm really caused death in endlers (I test weekly and I would say of the last 24wks I have had 2wks where nitrates were that high, likely due to overfeeding)? I feel like the shrimp and corys would have suffered first.@nabokovfan87 Definitely will do some larger water changes as soon as this weeks paracleanse course is done. I think the water parameters are pretty solid for the endlers and they are a pretty good match to what they were bred in before I had them. I do feed all the fish daphnia every other day alternating with their pellet food and blanched peas once a week. They might not have a 10/10 diet but its been pretty solid and I have not seen any signs of bloat.@TOtrees That is pretty much the conclusion I've come to (partially just to stay sane). I've actually only thrown paracleanse and aquarium salt at them to try to avoid stressing them when I don't know what I'm treating. All the meds I listed are what I have not what I have been using (I dont blame you for missing that...I wrote an absolute novel haha 😅). I do plan on adding activated charcoal the second this round of paracleanse ends on Friday! I think the recommendation to avoid livebearers for a min. of 3mos is a great one, I'll probably never add them back to this tank tho 😞. I'll probably go ricefish as I think they would look great with the CPDs and corys. Even then I will wait 2mos to add new fish. @Guppysnail It very well could be that I caught the gill flukes too late and for some reason the other species in the tank have handled it better than the endlers. Very much appreciate the solidarity and confirmation parameters are alright for them. I've been holding off on Kanaplex and jungle fungus in the display cause of my inverts but maybe I should have ran of course of that in my hospital tank for them sooner. @Aiden Carter They were drip acclimated and the only meds they've had a course of are paracleanse so far. My raw tap water parameters are pretty identical to the tank parameters I listed, other than the waterhardness and PH is slightly higher due to GH and PH creep from top offs. I have begun doing top offs with Distilled water to help address and give more time for the plants to take up those minerals. I would wager the endlers are in the 9mo range agewise. Thank for all the replies, I know the OP was loooooong! Have really appreciated reading from this community over the last 4mos and I even more so appreciate people responding and chiming in on this tricky one. Going forward it seems like best steps are some water changes and activated carbon. It's definitely disheartening trying to do everything right and still losing fish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darax Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 Fwiw, I've lost every store bought male guppy/endler. They'd die one a week or so. I had females also, and the children, male and female, live on. Probably in triple digits now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doke Posted January 25, 2023 Author Share Posted January 25, 2023 @Colu On another note, what do you consider the best timeline for follow up on paracleanse? So far I did a week treatment, 2wks off, and then on week 4 am currently treating again with paracleanse. Should I do another 2wks off to follow up with prazipro in 3wks or just 1wk off and treat with prazi in 2wks? On 1/25/2023 at 8:47 AM, Darax said: Fwiw, I've lost every store bought male guppy/endler. They'd die one a week or so. I had females also, and the children, male and female, live on. Probably in triple digits now. that is very interesting, maybe if I give the livebearers another go I'll start with 2 males and 5 females and see if their spawn do better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darax Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 8 months ago I had three females and was waiting for them to die off and give up on guppies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doke Posted January 25, 2023 Author Share Posted January 25, 2023 @Darax That's awesome! I feel nervous to give endlers another go and like @TOtrees said will give it a min. of several months. But that is very encouraging Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colu Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 On 1/25/2023 at 4:42 PM, Doke said: Thanks for chiming in @Colu (have read many...many of your posts in the hunt to diagnose whats going on). I would say as far as flashing goes, it was highly variable. I work from home so I can watch my tank essentially non-top and I might go a week only seeing 1 pygmy cory flash 2-3x in quick succession on 1 day. Or I might see a couple corys and 1 or 2 endlers flash once a day a few days in a row. It was never more than a few fish at a time, and it was never constant. It would be like 2x-3x in a 60sec window and then done for the day-several days. This morning I did my second dose of paracleanse for the week and immediately after 1 of the pygmys flashed twice (im assuming this is the meds irritating the flukes). I plan on doing a 3rd round of treatment but with prazipro to knockout anything paracleanse didnt. As of this morning Nitrates are in the 10-15ppm. I listed the range up to 40 as they have gotten that high before but they tend to float right around 20ppm. I didn't want to keep the nitrates too much lower as my understanding was that plants grew best in the 20-40 range. But I can certainly continue to make sure to keep them closer to 10-20ppm. Could nitrates having gotten to 40ppm really caused death in endlers (I test weekly and I would say of the last 24wks I have had 2wks where nitrates were that high, likely due to overfeeding)? I feel like the shrimp and corys would have suffered first. Usually you want do I a course of paracleanse on week1 week3 and week5 three courses of treatment is usually enough to deal with flukes what I would suggest is doing a course of levamisole in food feeding a small amount twice a day for 7 days the combination of paracleanse and levamisole will treat most commonly encountered parasites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doke Posted January 25, 2023 Author Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) On 1/25/2023 at 9:49 AM, Colu said: Usually you want do I a course of paracleanse on week1 week3 and week5 three courses of treatment is usually enough to deal with flukes what I would suggest is doing a course of levamisole in food feeding a small amount twice a day for 7 days the combination of paracleanse and levamisole will treat most commonly encountered parasites I could certainly get some expel-p for that. Would you consider one 7 day course of that sufficient? Edited January 25, 2023 by Doke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The endler guy Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 On 1/25/2023 at 11:47 AM, Darax said: Fwiw, I've lost every store bought male guppy/endler. They'd die one a week or so. I had females also, and the children, male and female, live on. Probably in triple digits now. I had something similar happen when I got mine for the first time 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colu Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 On 1/25/2023 at 5:53 PM, Doke said: I could certainly get some expel-p for that. How long would you feed for and how often would you feed the medicated food? Feed a Small amount twice a day for 7 days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doke Posted January 25, 2023 Author Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) @Colu my bad, going to fast between work and the thread, saw you originally answered that. Have some on the way and should be able to run during the off week of paracleanse next week. Would one 7 day course of expel-p in food be sufficient? Edited January 25, 2023 by Doke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colu Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) On 1/25/2023 at 5:58 PM, Doke said: @Colu my bad, going to fast between work and the thread, saw you originally answered that. Have some on the way and should be able to run during the off week of paracleanse next week. Would one 7 day course of expel-p in food be sufficient? You can follow up with another course of the medicated food in three weeks if you think they need it Edited January 26, 2023 by Colu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doke Posted January 25, 2023 Author Share Posted January 25, 2023 On 1/25/2023 at 10:03 AM, Colu said: You can follow up with another course of the medicated food in three weeks if you think they need it I'll give it a go! Thanks for your help @Colu, its much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabokovfan87 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 On 1/25/2023 at 8:42 AM, Doke said: @nabokovfan87 Definitely will do some larger water changes as soon as this weeks paracleanse course is done. I think the water parameters are pretty solid for the endlers and they are a pretty good match to what they were bred in before I had them. I do feed all the fish daphnia every other day alternating with their pellet food and blanched peas once a week. They might not have a 10/10 diet but its been pretty solid and I have not seen any signs of bloat. Agreed. I think the daphnia is good. Worst case I would try to find some spirulina flake or something to add into the rotation, just make sure spirulina is the first ingredient on the label. This might just be a nutrition thing and then eventually they are succumbing to not having certain nutrients. Could be, I'm not saying it is. The listlessness is what I was mentioning it for. Daphnia helps keep them clean, but usually when you see fish laying on the bottom or unable to swim I move towards internal issues. 😞 On 1/24/2023 at 6:12 PM, Doke said: I do know that my water is extremely hard but if it was the hardness that was hurting the fish and causing some kind of internal organ failure, I would think the pygmy corys and CPDs would suffer but they are all doing fantastic (They were all breed in SoCal in the same extremely hard water so they seem to be used to it) Depending what was going on with the source, water here (Southern California) is usually hard, but lower PH. 7 or below. I just wanted to mention it in case that information helps at all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doke Posted January 25, 2023 Author Share Posted January 25, 2023 On 1/25/2023 at 10:33 AM, nabokovfan87 said: Agreed. I think the daphnia is good. Worst case I would try to find some spirulina flake or something to add into the rotation, just make sure spirulina is the first ingredient on the label. This might just be a nutrition thing and then eventually they are succumbing to not having certain nutrients. Could be, I'm not saying it is. The listlessness is what I was mentioning it for. Daphnia helps keep them clean, but usually when you see fish laying on the bottom or unable to swim I move towards internal issues. 😞 Depending what was going on with the source, water here (Southern California) is usually hard, but lower PH. 7 or below. I just wanted to mention it in case that information helps at all. Ahhh got it! That makes sense. I'll look for some spirulina then 🙂 Appreciate the help and insight @nabokovfan87! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The endler guy Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 On 1/25/2023 at 2:13 PM, Doke said: Ahhh got it! That makes sense. I'll look for some spirulina then 🙂 Appreciate the help and insight @nabokovfan87! mine like to eat the raw spirulina (just the refrigerated algae) I use this stuff https://www.amazon.com/Brine-Shrimp-Direct-Spirulina-Powder/dp/B07RWNZ787/ref=sr_1_7?crid=23ZOFI1IROSJU&keywords=spirulina+powder+for+fish&qid=1674681033&sprefix=spirulina+powder%2Caps%2C89&sr=8-7 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odd Duck Posted January 26, 2023 Share Posted January 26, 2023 Lots of solid advice here as usual in the forum. Your water parameters other than nitrates are good. That level of nitrate would not typically bother me except when fish are sick or dying. Then I recommend lower levels so in the 15-20 range where you are now is better. Definitely aim for 20 or less going forward. Did I understand correctly that your tap has the same parameters? Including nitrate levels? That could be quite problematic but it certainly explains why you’re not using any ferts except iron and still have good plant growth. You may need to buy some RO water or otherwise filter some water for a while. Cutting back on feeding the tank as a whole might also be a good idea. For deworming, the PraziPro doesn’t bring anything to the table more than is already in the Paracleanse. The Paracleanse is Praziquantal and Meteonidazole while PraziPro is only Praziquantal. They are different concentrations but the dosing recommendations on the labels are different so the actual dose in the water ends up the same. Yes, I did the math. Timing of deworming/parasite treatment is very important. I’m a big fan of using either Expel-P (Levamisole) or Panacur (Fenbendazole) dewormers along with Praziquantal if there’s any doubt about parasites, especially internal parasites. The Levam and Fenben are in the same class of dewormers but Prazi is a different class and works on different types of parasites. There is some crossover but they are generally useful for different classes of parasites. Using them together (or alternately) gives you very broad spectrum parasite control. I’ll insert the deworming schedule I usually recommend at the end of this post. Forgive the format issues as this is a copy/paste from “Notes” and it’s stupidly difficult to change the font size of this pasted bit on my iPad. You have already started on the Praziquantal part of the treatment regimen recommended below. Treating for the gill flukes specifically will be more effective using a bath for the affected fish at double dose compared to normal. This treatment is NOT RECOMMENDED FOR CORYDORAS. Do NOT dose the whole tank. It is meant as a 3 to 6 hour bath only done once every 7 days for 2 treatments. Use conditioned water and the PraziPro, NOT the Paracleanse. Use a double dose for the volume of water in the “bath” compared to what it says on the label. Normal label is 1 teaspoon = 5 mls/20 gallons, equal to 1 mls per 4 gallons. The “bath” should be 1 mls per 2 gallons. Watch closely for any signs of distress and remove back to the main tank immediately if any are seen. A couple flashes or sparse, intermittent flashing are acceptable as this could be a response to the gill flukes moving around before releasing. Set a timer for 3 hours and start watching even more closely thereafter. Try not to get any water from the treatment tank/container into the main tank - minimize as much as possible since hopefully the parasites will be in the treatment tank. Discard the water from the treatment tank after each treatment. Deworming Siphon out debris from the bottom before and after dosing to remove any expelled worms, eggs, debris, etc. Levamisole is inactivated by organic debris and by light, so dose after lights out and black out the tank for 24 hours, remove organics via water changes and cleaning the bottom of debris as much as possible. It’s likely that levamisole does what it can do within the first hour, but best to follow directions precisely. If you have a bare bottom hospital tank available, it might be best and easiest to transfer the fish to that tank for the duration of treatment - up to 5 weeks total treatment time if doing 3 doses of praziquantal. Levamisole treatment should be weekly for 4 treatments. Praziquantal treatment should be every other week (at least) for 2-3 treatments and it is left in for a week at a time. It can be dosed the day after levamisole treatment. Remove any carbon or Purigen from filters before dosing. Have enough dechlorinated water to do a 50% water change immediately if any adverse symptoms are seen in the fish. A typical treatment regimen: 1. 50% water change with careful siphoning of debris from the bottom of the tank. 2. Dose with levamisole and black out the tank for 24 hours. Then 50% water change siphoning the entire bottom of the tank. 3. Dose with praziquantal directly after the second 50% WC. 4. One week later, 50% water change siphoning the bottom thoroughly. Dose with levamisole following directions in step 1-2. 5. One week later (start of week 3 of treatment), repeat all steps 1-4 over another 2 weeks time. 6. Repeat all steps 1-5, then do last WC one week later after third dose of praziquantal. Not all snails will tolerate treatments, so best to remove any snails in the tank. Condensed, weekly schedule: Week 1: siphon debris and do 50% water change, levamisole x 24 hrs, siphon. Treat with praziquantal and leave in until next week. Week 2: siphon, levam x 24 hrs, siphon. Week 3: siphon, levam x 24 hrs, siphon, then prazi. Week 4: siphon, levam x 24 hrs, siphon. Week 5: siphon, levam x 24 hrs, siphon, then prazi. Week 6: siphon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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