Mysterious Endler Deaths

[Doke]

@Odd Duck Thanks for the advice! Will definitely make sure to keep nitrates sub 20 as a standard. At this current stage its looking like I'll lose the rest of my endlers and being focusing on maintaining the health of the CPDs and Corys, and then add some non-livebearers in @ a future date. Probbaly will never truly figure out what wiped them out. That being said will still finish on the gill flukes treatment for the corys in the display (have yet to see a single cpd flash, just the corys and endlers). And then will treat with expel as they have yet to have any levam treatment.

The tap water Nitrate/nitrite/ammonia is 0ppm, but the Ph and hardness is the same as my tank, maybe a hair lower due to hardness creep in my tank but pretty close to spot on. (I got RO water this week to make sure I can do all my top offs with it and give the plants a chance to uptake more of the minerals)

That's good to know about the prazipro vs paracleanse prazi dosage when administered per instructions. 

Do you know what the efficacy or pros/cons of treating the water column with levam vs feeding levam soaked food is? I'm assuming you and Colu have each had success with your given treatment strategy. 

[Odd Duck]

On 1/26/2023 at 3:19 PM, Doke said:

@Odd Duck Thanks for the advice! Will definitely make sure to keep nitrates sub 20 as a standard. At this current stage its looking like I'll lose the rest of my endlers and being focusing on maintaining the health of the CPDs and Corys, and then add some non-livebearers in @ a future date. Probbaly will never truly figure out what wiped them out. That being said will still finish on the gill flukes treatment for the corys in the display (have yet to see a single cpd flash, just the corys and endlers). And then will treat with expel as they have yet to have any levam treatment.

The tap water Nitrate/nitrite/ammonia is 0ppm, but the Ph and hardness is the same as my tank, maybe a hair lower due to hardness creep in my tank but pretty close to spot on. (I got RO water this week to make sure I can do all my top offs with it and give the plants a chance to uptake more of the minerals)

That's good to know about the prazipro vs paracleanse prazi dosage when administered per instructions. 

Do you know what the efficacy or pros/cons of treating the water column with levam vs feeding levam soaked food is? I'm assuming you and Colu have each had success with your given treatment strategy. 

Make sure to only do the label dose on cories.  The formulary specifically mentions that cories may be harmed by the higher dose in the bath.  That information could very well stem from deaths from the toxins that cories can secrete when stressed vs actually being sensitive to the higher dose, but the information is in the formulary and I would be remiss in not strongly cautioning about the risk.

I have, and I’m reasonably sure @Coluprobably has, also.  Many of my doses are pulled from Exotic Animal Formulary - main author is James Carpenter.  He was my mentor in vet school.  I often read generally available info from several sources, then confirm appropriate treatments and dosages from the formulary since there’s a lot of mis-information out there.  I’ve been treating exotics since 1994 and keeping fish since 1975 so I have a lot of junk stashed away in this old brain.  I sometimes have to relearn things to make sure I’m not passing along old wives tales or just have out of date information still in my brain.  Before I make some recommendations I double and triple check info.  Some info I know and have known for ages, but some I still double check if I’m not certain.

[Doke]

On 1/26/2023 at 1:28 PM, Odd Duck said:

Make sure to only do the label dose on cories.  The formulary specifically mentions that cories may be harmed by the higher dose in the bath.  That information could very well stem from deaths from the toxins that cories can secrete when stressed vs actually being sensitive to the higher dose, but the information is in the formulary and I would be remiss in not strongly cautioning about the risk.

I have, and I’m reasonably sure @Coluprobably has, also.  Many of my doses are pulled from Exotic Animal Formulary - main author is James Carpenter.  He was my mentor in vet school.  I often read generally available info from several sources, then confirm appropriate treatments and dosages from the formulary since there’s a lot of mis-information out there.  I’ve been treating exotics since 1994 and keeping fish since 1975 so I have a lot of junk stashed away in this old brain.  I sometimes have to relearn things to make sure I’m not passing along old wives tales or just have out of date information still in my brain.  Before I make some recommendations I double and triple check info.  Some info I know and have known for ages, but some I still double check if I’m not certain.

Yea since Im treating cory's I'll continue to dose per the label dosing, but I appreciate you double checking 🙂

And that's very cool, your expertise and experience are certainly appreciate by myself and many others on the forum! As you said there is a lot of information out there, and you hear a lot of both sides in regards to dosing the water vs dosing through food. In your experience would you say there is any difference dosing in the water vs doing in the food? I'm assuming when treating with some that may affect inverts negatively dosing through food lowers the risk to them if you must treat in the display. In this situation is it just dealers choice?

Edited January 26, 2023 by Doke

[Odd Duck]

Dosing through food should be more effective for internal parasites, but not likely to be effective at all for gill flukes.  While gill flukes attach to the gills and suck blood from the fish, the fish doesn’t absorb much if any of most dewormer drugs from the gut.  None of the ones we’ve discussed so far are absorbed by the fish except metronidazole which doesn’t eliminate gill flukes anyway.  The fish swallows the drug with water but they don’t absorb the drug into their system.  It works against the internal parasites in the gut, but doesn’t substantially get into the fishes blood or tissues.

That’s rather ironically why dosing the food is the most effective way to deliver most intestinal parasite dewormers to fish because it gets a higher dose directly into the gut around the parasite, not because it gets a higher dose into the fish’s blood/tissues.  The gill flukes have to be treated by dosing in the water because they will not get a dose any other way but from the water passing over the gills.  Same for most external parasites of fish.  Oral dosing is useless for most dewormers for external parasites.

The big challenge is often getting the fish to eat the medicated food.  Since since we know that dosing the water also works, it’s why I’m more likely to recommend dosing that way.  It’s on the label of the product, too, so nobody has to come and search the forum to double check the dose in most circumstances.

As far as inverts, if you’re feeding the whole tank with medicated food, and the total amount in the medicated food equals the amount that would be dosed for,the whole tank, I suspect the dose in the water is going to be similar in the end since the drugs aren’t absorbed, therefore aren’t metabolized, and they are excreted essentially unchanged.  I’m not certain how much drug would end up in the water if your fish eat the food readily, or are small so they eat less, etc, but if the total amount going in the tank is less, but it might/should reduce the risk for inverts?

[Doke]

On 1/26/2023 at 2:28 PM, Odd Duck said:

Dosing through food should be more effective for internal parasites, but not likely to be effective at all for gill flukes.  While gill flukes attach to the gills and suck blood from the fish, the fish doesn’t absorb much if any of most dewormer drugs from the gut.  None of the ones we’ve discussed so far are absorbed by the fish except metronidazole which doesn’t eliminate gill flukes anyway.  The fish swallows the drug with water but they don’t absorb the drug into their system.  It works against the internal parasites in the gut, but doesn’t substantially get into the fishes blood or tissues.

That’s rather ironically why dosing the food is the most effective way to deliver most intestinal parasite dewormers to fish because it gets a higher dose directly into the gut around the parasite, not because it gets a higher dose into the fish’s blood/tissues.  The gill flukes have to be treated by dosing in the water because they will not get a dose any other way but from the water passing over the gills.  Same for most external parasites of fish.  Oral dosing is useless for most dewormers for external parasites.

The big challenge is often getting the fish to eat the medicated food.  Since since we know that dosing the water also works, it’s why I’m more likely to recommend dosing that way.  It’s on the label of the product, too, so nobody has to come and search the forum to double check the dose in most circumstances.

As far as inverts, if you’re feeding the whole tank with medicated food, and the total amount in the medicated food equals the amount that would be dosed for,the whole tank, I suspect the dose in the water is going to be similar in the end since the drugs aren’t absorbed, therefore aren’t metabolized, and they are excreted essentially unchanged.  I’m not certain how much drug would end up in the water if your fish eat the food readily, or are small so they eat less, etc, but if the total amount going in the tank is less, but it might/should reduce the risk for inverts?

Super insightful, appreciate all the help from yourself and the other contributors! 

[Schuyler]

Sounds like you already have a plan of action but you may also consider reaching out to the store you got them from to see if they have had anyone else mention having problems with endlers from them.

Sounds like they take good care of the fish (doing their own quarantine doesn't seem like a common practice) and they may want to know if there is a problem with where they are getting their fish.

[Doke]

On 1/27/2023 at 2:03 PM, Schuyler said:

Sounds like you already have a plan of action but you may also consider reaching out to the store you got them from to see if they have had anyone else mention having problems with endlers from them.

Sounds like they take good care of the fish (doing their own quarantine doesn't seem like a common practice) and they may want to know if there is a problem with where they are getting their fish.

great idea will do!

[Doke]

On 1/27/2023 at 2:03 PM, Schuyler said:

Sounds like you already have a plan of action but you may also consider reaching out to the store you got them from to see if they have had anyone else mention having problems with endlers from them.

Sounds like they take good care of the fish (doing their own quarantine doesn't seem like a common practice) and they may want to know if there is a problem with where they are getting their fish.

They were very appreciative of the heads up. They said they haven't had any issues with the endlers stock or heard anything but they will follow up with the breeder and their in house biologist is going to run some tests on one of the endlers still in their current stock. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Doke
Edited to comply with forum policy on LFS

[Doke]

@Odd Duck I’m running activated carbon now (in case there were any contaminants killing the endlers) but will be removing it to dose expel-p today.

 

Can I add the carbon back after the first 24hrs of medicating and the water change? Or do I need to leave it out for the next few weeks? I know most of the affects of the expel-p should take place in 24hrs but I wasn’t sure if the remaining amount sitting in the tank over the next week was actively doing something? 

[Odd Duck]

On 1/30/2023 at 11:07 AM, Doke said:

@Odd Duck I’m running activated carbon now (in case there were any contaminants killing the endlers) but will be removing it to dose expel-p today.

 

Can I add the carbon back after the first 24hrs of medicating and the water change? Or do I need to leave it out for the next few weeks? I know most of the affects of the expel-p should take place in 24hrs but I wasn’t sure if the remaining amount sitting in the tank over the next week was actively doing something? 

You should do a 50% water change with thorough siphoning of the bottom to remove any expelled parasites or eggs after any deworming doses.  Most dewormers selectively paralyze the parasites but don’t actually kill them.  They may get partially or fully digested by the host after they are paralyzed but the dewormer doesn’t actually do the killing.  It’s vital that you remove the often microscopic parasites in all its life stages by siphoning until you reach about a 50% water change.  This removes enough of the drug (plus levamisole is broken down by light) that it’s a non-issue.  Plus you need to do a thorough siphon and 50% before dosing to remove as much organic debris from the tank that also speeds degradation of the levamisole.

Praziquantal is much more stable in the water than levamisole but should still have a thorough siphon with 50% water change, dose, then 50% water change after leaving the drug in the water for one week.  At the end of all treatment and a final 50% water change with thorough siphoning of the tank bottom, you can add activated charcoal/carbon  to help remove any remaining meds.

[Doke]

To update anyone that comes across this thread, I did end up losing all of my endlers. I finished out @Odd Duck's levamisole and paracleanse routine and during that time and for months after I did not lose anymore fish (CPDS and corys being the fish here). I waited an additional 3 months after the last endler death and introduced 10 white cloud mountain minnows after a 8wk quarantine in which i treated with the med trio on week 1 and then followed up with Odd Duck's levamisole and paracleanse routine starting on week 3 to cover all my bases before introducting into the main tank. All was well for several months but starting in August I lost my first CPD and a White Cloud, and from August to now (November 27th) I lost an additional 5 white clouds and 4 cpds (no cory deaths still...those buggers are sticking it out). The only visible symptoms have been sunken bellys on 2 CPDS, thinning of two White Clouds, and then behavioral changes such as isolating themselves from the rest of the tank and surface hanging.

Nitrates have stayed around 10-15ppm, and all other paramterers remain as listed at the start of the original post.

When the deaths started up again I did @Colu's kanaplex and jungle fungus clear treatment as that was the only major treatment I had not yet attempted. In total every fish in my care as well as the display tank have gone through a full treament of maracyn, kanaplex/jungle fungus clear, and levamisole/paracleanse over the last year. 

I'm now at the point where I suspect a Mycobacteriosis infection (fish TB). Sources seem conflicting on whether or not mycobacteria is present in all aquariums, and whether its lethalitly is merely determined by the fishes immune system / stress levels. These sources claim all you can do is manage the bacteria load through UV sterilizers and adequate filtration, aeration, and overall stable and appropriate water parameters (Diana Walstad's take). Or if it is less prevalent and once identified the whole system needs to be scrapped and disinfected (the nuclear option). 

I think I might find a fish vet or pathologist to conduct a necropsy and fast-acid stain to check for mycobaceriosis. Unforuntately there are non in my city but I am exploring options.

I would love to have other tanks / aquascapes and continue in this hobby. But at this point I have to admit I am feeling discouraged. That being said I am grateful for this community and the contributors that have provided guidance for myself and others. Below is how the tank looks these days

Edited November 28, 2023 by Doke

[Colu]

On 11/28/2023 at 12:33 AM, Doke said:

To update anyone that comes across this thread, I did end up losing all of my endlers. I finished out @Odd Duck's levamisole and paracleanse routine and during that time and for months after I did not lose anymore fish (CPDS and corys being the fish here). I waited an additional 3 months after the last endler death and introduced 10 white cloud mountain minnows after a 8wk quarantine in which i treated with the med trio on week 1 and then followed up with Odd Duck's levamisole and paracleanse routine starting on week 3 to cover all my bases before introducting into the main tank. All was well for several months but starting in August I lost my first CPD and a White Cloud, and from August to now (November 27th) I lost an additional 5 white clouds and 4 cpds (no cory deaths still...those buggers are sticking it out). The only visible symptoms have been sunken bellys on 2 CPDS, thinning of two White Clouds, and then behavioral changes such as isolating themselves from the rest of the tank and surface hanging.

Nitrates have stayed around 10-15ppm, and all other paramterers remain as listed at the start of the original post.

When the deaths started up again I did @Colu's kanaplex and jungle fungus clear treatment as that was the only major treatment I had not yet attempted. In total every fish in my care as well as the display tank have gone through a full treament of maracyn, kanaplex/jungle fungus clear, and levamisole/paracleanse over the last year. 

I'm now at the point where I suspect a Mycobacteriosis infection (fish TB). Sources seem conflicting on whether or not mycobacteria is present in all aquariums, and whether its lethalitly is merely determined by the fishes immune system / stress levels. These sources claim all you can do is manage the bacteria load through UV sterilizers and adequate filtration, aeration, and overall stable and appropriate water parameters (Diana Walstad's take). Or if it is less prevalent and once identified the whole system needs to be scrapped and disinfected (the nuclear option). 

I think I might find a fish vet or pathologist to conduct a necropsy and fast-acid stain to check for mycobaceriosis. Unforuntately there are non in my city but I am exploring options.

I would love to have other tanks / aquascapes and continue in this hobby. But at this point I have to admit I am feeling discouraged. That being said I am grateful for this community and the contributors that have provided guidance for myself and others. Below is how the tank looks these days

With what your describing with the sunken bellys thinning of some of your white clouds I would still be learning to wards a parasitic infection some types of parasite have started to develop resistance to some medication I think it would be worthwhile treating with anti-parasitic medication with different active ingredient such as fenbendazole or flubendazole I think it would be worthwhile to get some tests done by a vet if your still having issues after treating with flubendazole or fenbendazole 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Colu

[Odd Duck]

I agree with @Colu, worth trying the switch to fenbendazole or flubendazole.  These would be in place of the levamisole.  It would also be worth trying to “crowd out” any mycobacterium present by dosing heavily with beneficial bacteria.  FritzZyme 7 is a good one but would be pricy to dose heavy and daily for any length of time.  Some of us have been playing with pond beneficial bacteria since it’s cheaper and more concentrated.  Try PondWorks, dosing at twice the label dose and dose daily for at least 2 weeks.  It appears to have some immune boosting effects as far as we can tell.  To make it easier for you, I dose at 2 mls per 10 gallons and have used higher doses without worrying a bit about using too much other than I make certain the tank is well aerated.

If that doesn’t help, then you’ll have to go nuclear - replace substrate, spray the entire inside of the tank and all hardscape thoroughly with straight peroxide.  Clean the filter and spray with peroxide or soak in peroxide.  Replace all filter media with new.  Soak all plants in seltzer water for at least 3 hours (6 might be better, this isn’t something we tested against).  You can’t “disinfect” the fish, of course.

It’s impossible to prevent mycobacteria in the tank, but keeping fish as healthy and stress free as possible is the best thing you can do to minimize risk.

[Doke]

@Colu / @Odd Duck - do you have a specific fenbendazole or flubendazole product/treatment that you recommend? Is it similar to levamisole where you are merely paralyzing the worms and they need to be removed after, and the treament needs to be repeated for an extended period of time? 

One product i found is a fenbendazole flake. Treament as listed is: "One feeding of this food exclusively, every other day for 5 total feedings will give the proper dosage. Feed the fish only once on the day of the treatment at the end of the day. They should be kept hungry, so they will eat vigorously. Repeat the full treatment after 3 weeks" 

In regards to trying to reduct the amount of the mycobacterium in the tank, do either of you have any thoughts on Diana Walstads method of using UV sterilizers to stop the proliferation of the mycobacterium? 

Whats really getting me is that the cpds deaths have been so slow in incoming. It was over a year before the first loss. And several months for the first white cloud death.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Doke

[Colu]

On 11/28/2023 at 4:51 PM, Doke said:

@Colu / @Odd Duck - do you have a specific fenbendazole or flubendazole product/treatment that you recommend? Is it similar to levamisole where you are merely paralyzing the worms and they need to be removed after, and the treament needs to be repeated for an extended period of time? 

One product i found is a fenfendazole flake. Treament as listed is: "One feeding of this food exclusively, every other day for 5 total feedings will give the proper dosage. Feed the fish only once on the day of the treatment at the end of the day. They should be kept hungry, so they will eat vigorously. Repeat the full treatment after 3 weeks" 

In regards to trying to reduct the amount of the mycobacterium in the tank, do either of you have any thoughts on Diana Walstads method of using UV sterilizers to stop the proliferation of the mycobacterium? 

Whats really getting me is that the cpds deaths have been so slow in incoming. It was over a year before the first loss. And several months for the first white cloud death.

I would treat with medicated flake food you found UV sterilisers stop bacteria from reproducing by breaking the DNA chain of the bacteria in the water column it won't have any effect of bacteria in your substrate or on your hard scrape internal parasites can take months to kill in some cases it's all depends on the type of parasite your dealing 

[Odd Duck]

On 11/28/2023 at 10:51 AM, Doke said:

In regards to trying to reduct the amount of the mycobacterium in the tank, do either of you have any thoughts on Diana Walstads method of using UV sterilizers to stop the proliferation of the mycobacterium? 

Anything that can help is worth trying, but as @Colusaid, there will be bacteria in the substrate, etc.

In regard to the fenbendazoleor flubendazole, I would directly substitute for levamisole.  You can absolutely do the every other day for 5 days, then repeat in 3 weeks.  The goal is to reduce the parasite load right away but also to catch the parasites at the right stage in their life cycle where the drug can affect them.