Bolivian Ram Journal

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 12/9/2023 at 2:20 PM, Lennie said:

Is garlic safe for snails? Im not sure

I would think Seachem garlic guard is ok?  It’s a very popular product. The package says tank safe but does not mention inverts specifically. The snails are active and cruising around. They had some yesterday too.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 12/9/2023 at 8:47 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

I would think Seachem garlic guard is ok?  It’s a very popular product. The package says tank safe but does not mention inverts specifically. The snails are active and cruising around. They had some yesterday too.

Happy to report all our snail friends are doing well. @Lennie  Today they are helping clean up some fish food flakes.

 Spike’s tank is down to .25 ammonia. Another 50% water change with Prime. He ate some worms and has Repashy if he wants it.

Snoopy is flashing today but has no other symptoms. I wonder what that’s all about. Snoopy goes through periods of flashing and then it just goes away. Like one day she will flash and then 2 weeks will go by where she doesn’t (?) I haven’t taken action because it is so intermittent and her behavior is the same. Peppy, curious, feisty.

[Lennie]

On 12/10/2023 at 4:47 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

I would think Seachem garlic guard is ok?  It’s a very popular product. The package says tank safe but does not mention inverts specifically. The snails are active and cruising around. They had some yesterday too.

 

On 12/10/2023 at 6:46 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Happy to report all our snail friends are doing well. @Lennie  Today they are helping clean up some fish food flakes.

Im glad to hear. I have no idea if  garlic is actually snail safe. Because, if I am not mistaken, some people use it to kill slugs/snails in their gardens or so. I also saw something similar mentioned in Kats aquatics page.

So I  found this: 

https://www.katsaquaticsshop.com/post/garlicandsnails

It basically says allicin in raw garlic is harmful but heating garlic destroys allicin so it becomes safe? 

 

When I check garlic guard info online, I came accross this:

"Garlic Guard is an appetite/flavor enhancer for freshwater and saltwater fish. GarlicGuard will help renew the interest of poor or finicky eaters.
GarlicGuard contains the naturally derived, active ingredient found in garlic, allicin, which has been demonstrated to possess health promoting benefits.
Allicin possesses strong anti-oxidant properties (similar to Vitamin C) which promote enhanced health through elimination of dangerous free radicals.
For enhanced health benefits, GarlicGuard also contains Vitamin C. Freshwater and Marine. Reef safe."

 

So is it not snail-safe? I'm confused.

Do you have any idea Duck? @Odd Duck

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 12/10/2023 at 11:00 AM, Lennie said:

 

Im glad to hear. I have no idea if  garlic is actually snail safe. Because, if I am not mistaken, some people use it to kill slugs/snails in their gardens or so. I also saw something similar mentioned in Kats aquatics page.

So I  found this: 

https://www.katsaquaticsshop.com/post/garlicandsnails

It basically says allicin in raw garlic is harmful but heating garlic destroys allicin so it becomes safe? 

 

When I check garlic guard info online, I came accross this:

"Garlic Guard is an appetite/flavor enhancer for freshwater and saltwater fish. GarlicGuard will help renew the interest of poor or finicky eaters.
GarlicGuard contains the naturally derived, active ingredient found in garlic, allicin, which has been demonstrated to possess health promoting benefits.
Allicin possesses strong anti-oxidant properties (similar to Vitamin C) which promote enhanced health through elimination of dangerous free radicals.
For enhanced health benefits, GarlicGuard also contains Vitamin C. Freshwater and Marine. Reef safe."

 

So is it not snail-safe? I'm confused.

Do you have any idea Duck? @Odd Duck

Thanks @Lennie. I don't know. My intention was not to feed this to the snails, but to the fish. The snails helped themselves. Anyway, I'd imagine if it was killing everyone's snails there would be a widespread outrage about it on the internet?  I did find some snello recipes that contain garlic guard though, when I was searching.  Maybe the amount of allicin in Garlic Guard is not high, or maybe it was heated to a certain point to make the Garlic Guard, which rendered it safe and that is why everyone is ok.  It is very vague and hard to find info on it though, as far as how it relates to our invert friends.  I don't intend to feed it in this tank any more until we can find more data.

[Pokey]

How did you add the garlic to it, just grind it up?

Thats wonderful that Spike is improving! 😃

Edited December 10, 2023 by Pokey
Never mind 🤪 I was on the previous page when I was wondering about how to add it. Now I see it’s a product you can buy.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 12/10/2023 at 1:12 PM, Pokey said:

How did you add the garlic to it, just grind it up?

Thats wonderful that Spike is improving! 😃

It is garlic guard, a Seachem product. I mixed it with Repashy to entice my ram to eat.

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/10/2023 at 8:00 AM, Lennie said:

It basically says allicin in raw garlic is harmful but heating garlic destroys allicin so it becomes safe? 

Cutting a garlic clove breaks its cells and releases stored enzymes that react with oxygen. That triggers healthy sulfide compounds, such as allicin, to form. Letting the chopped garlic stand for 10 to 15 minutes before cooking allows the compounds to fully develop before heat inactivates the enzymes.

 

It's about how garlic works. It gets "slimey" when you cut the cell wall because of the chemical reaction. Then something like steam as well as washing it can cut down on that slime.  My opinion is that there's nothing beneficial in terms of health with that removed and if it's a matter of healthy as opposed to unhealthy, you're heating the garlic and there's not much left there in terms of what garlic is traditionally viewed as. Yes there's going to be some nutrients, but similar to boiling a vegetable too long that goes to mush, there's a lot less than there once was. (hopefully that makes sense)

Some foods use rosemary, maybe that's a better route to go than garlic.

https://archive.nytimes.com/well.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/15/unlocking-the-benefits-of-garlic/

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

This morning we were back up to .5 ammonia. Did the 50% water change with the siphoning and the Prime (added a bit extra), and then cranked up the air and began the 1 day Excel-P treatment. This would be dose 3 of Excel-P. Tank is blacked out but I did peek in on them briefly. Sleeping as expected. I mean, what else are they supposed to do in the dark? Also @nabokovfan87 was nice enough to send several foods for Spike to try. Thank you! 🙏 

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/11/2023 at 4:45 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Also @nabokovfan87 was nice enough to send several foods for Spike to try. Thank you! 🙏

Fingers crossed!   Live view of the feeding tomorrow 😂:

 

On 12/11/2023 at 4:45 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Did the 50% water change with the siphoning and the Prime (added a bit extra)

I always do a 2x dose when it's that situation just in case it's chloramines or something at play too.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I could tell Spike was stressed today after the Expel-P.  Same thing last time I dosed it. He sits around and becomes inactive or slow and hides more. Here he is sitting on his little kickstands, poor fella.

He did meet up with his friend but they didn’t wall surf today; they just kinda stared at each other.

(The wall is already covered but the inside glass is still reflective… not much I can do about it. Seems he likes his friend though and I see energy from him when they are together.)

He wasn’t too interested in noms today. He kind of was biting at the water above the food..?  Like his aim was poor?  Or he had reservations about consuming things. Idk.   He ended up eating one live worm; nothing else. The worms are always offered last after commercial food is ignored. I left Repashy in there for the day but I doubt he ate any. He seemed to want to rest. 

Also this morning he made a sudden and fierce flashing back & forth on the sand, then shot all the way up to the surface, then swam casually back down, resumed his sitting..  strange. Never saw him do that before. I read that fish present flashing when parasites are being purged. I wonder if that’s what’s happening. 

Next up is the Prazi. The bottle says it’s “extremely safe”. I hope that means it won’t further stress him. @Odd Duck? @Colu?

Good news! This morning’s ammonia test was 0.  I repeated the test 2 more times. Changed 50% water anyway because I had to remove the expel-p. This evening’s test had a slight tinge of green, maybe? Could be 0, could be like, .10.  Regardless, I changed 50% water again and redosed Fritz Zyme 7. Also the ammonia tests start out a little orange. I think the meds in the water are causing that.

Spike’s gill inflammation or whatnot seems a little worse today. I’m not sure what that is all about or if it’s just a coloration and not an issue. 

The tetras in there are eating well and active.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Colu]

On 12/13/2023 at 2:19 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

I could tell Spike was stressed today after the Expel-P.  Same thing last time I dosed it. He sits around and becomes inactive or slow and hides more. Here he is sitting on his little kickstands, poor fella.

He did meet up with his friend but they didn’t wall surf today; they just kinda stared at each other.

(The wall is already covered but the inside glass is still reflective… not much I can do about it. Seems he likes his friend though and I see energy from him when they are together.)

He wasn’t too interested in noms today. He kind of was biting at the water above the food..?  Like his aim was poor?  Or he had reservations about consuming things. Idk.   He ended up eating one live worm; nothing else. The worms are always offered last after commercial food is ignored. I left Repashy in there for the day but I doubt he ate any. He seemed to want to rest. 

Also this morning he made a sudden and fierce flashing back & forth on the sand, then shot all the way up to the surface, then swam casually back down, resumed his sitting..  strange. Never saw him do that before. I read that fish present flashing when parasites are being purged. I wonder if that’s what’s happening. 

Next up is the Prazi. The bottle says it’s “extremely safe”. I hope that means it won’t further stress him. @Odd Duck? @Colu?

Good news! This morning’s ammonia test was 0.  I repeated the test 2 more times. Changed 50% water anyway because I had to remove the expel-p. This evening’s test had a slight tinge of green, maybe? Could be 0, could be like, .10.  Regardless, I changed 50% water again and redosed Fritz Zyme 7. Also the ammonia tests start out a little orange. I think the meds in the water are causing that.

Spike’s gill inflammation or whatnot seems a little worse today. I’m not sure what that is all about or if it’s just a coloration and not an issue. 

The tetras in there are eating well and active.

Gill inflammation could be caused by the parasite damaging his Gills or ammonia. your reading is zero so that's less likely unless you had a spike and missed it. all medication are stressful to some degree. i would still keep going with the treatment protocol. you could try adding a small amount of seachems garlic guard to his food to try and stimulate his appetite see if that helps 

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/12/2023 at 6:19 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Spike’s gill inflammation or whatnot seems a little worse today. I’m not sure what that is all about or if it’s just a coloration and not an issue. 

I assume that it's already in there, but I just wanted to mention it given everything going on and the stress you're seeing.  Do you have an "extra" air stone running for the sake of meds in the water?  (not filtration, but filtration + 1)

I don't think I've ever seen a fish do the behavior you mentioned with the swimming erratically, but hopefully he can de-stress, recover, and start to heal.  Pulling for you little spike!

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 12/13/2023 at 1:24 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Do you have an "extra" air stone running

Yes, absolutely.

On 12/12/2023 at 9:58 PM, Colu said:

unless you had a spike and missed it

This is likely because I had discovered my test strips were faulty. I then switched to liquid tests.

On 12/8/2023 at 8:25 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Spike is having some kind of color explosion; I began to notice it yesterday.

Day 1 Spike:

 

Today, in natural light and LED:

I’m in love with those reds poppin, but the stripes.. I raise an eyebrow. Time to do some water tests. First up, ammonia liquid test.

[insert several EXPLETIVES here]

Now, was I doing my due diligence along the way? Indeed. But you see, 

Things were looking great. (This test taken immediately after liquid test above). Upon receiving said strips and first use, I had reported them as possibly faulty. Said I’ve used these before but this time the strips looked more yellow than previous orders. I mentioned that possibly moisture affected the contents of the container? Even though sealed with silica gel. Was reassured the coloration of strips is fine/normal. Accepted this response at face value and have been using them for 1+ month, but today was the true test/proof; no longer a hunch.

Anyway, after the expletives kerfuffle, I did a 50% water change with a few extra dashes of Prime, and the new tank dosage amount of Fritz Zyme 7 (Dear past self, thank you for helping present self by thinking ahead and replacing the near empty container of Fritz Zyme 7, despite not having a specific purpose for it at the time.) 

Everything else is cool (normal readings) and these kids are ok too, but they grouped up because they didn’t like the siphon in their vicinity, plus the additional light.

 

Spike did eat some worms for me today. When I get home again I will be moving some seeded filter media to this tank).

 

[Colu]

On 12/13/2023 at 10:48 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Yes, absolutely.

This is likely because I had discovered my test strips were faulty. I then switched to liquid tests.

 

Looks like 1ppm of ammonia that would explain the Gill inflammation 

[Guppysnail]

@Chick-In-Of-TheSea I add salt whenever I have to treat with meds. It helps gill function in some way making it easier for their system to absorb oxygen or something like that. I’m not good at explaining the how it works. I’m sure @Colu can explain the actual How and why much better than my clumsy attempt as well as if salt will affect the efficacy of the meds you are using if you add salt. 

[Colu]

On 12/13/2023 at 11:45 AM, Guppysnail said:

@Chick-In-Of-TheSea I add salt whenever I have to treat with meds. It helps gill function in some way making it easier for their system to absorb oxygen or something like that. I’m not good at explaining the how it works. I’m sure @Colu can explain the actual How and why much better than my clumsy attempt as well as if salt will affect the efficacy of the meds you are using if you add salt. 

Aquarium salt aids Gill function and adds essential electrolytes it's won't have a negative interaction with levamisole or praziquantel so it fine to use the  to together I would just add a small amount of aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 5 gallons 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Colu

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 12/13/2023 at 6:48 AM, Colu said:

Aquarium salt aids Gill function and adds essential electrolytes it's won't have a negative interaction with levamisole or praziquantel so it fine to use the  to together I would just add a small amount of aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 5 gallons 

I did consider salt, but I am concerned with his stress. Would salt stress him, do you think?

On 12/13/2023 at 6:45 AM, Guppysnail said:

@Chick-In-Of-TheSea I add salt whenever I have to treat with meds. It helps gill function in some way making it easier for their system to absorb oxygen or something like that. I’m not good at explaining the how it works. I’m sure @Colu can explain the actual How and why much better than my clumsy attempt as well as if salt will affect the efficacy of the meds you are using if you add salt. 

 

On 12/13/2023 at 6:15 AM, Colu said:

Looks like 1ppm of ammonia that would explain the Gill inflammation 

Yeah. It was frustrating because I had only been using the strips which showed 0 the whole time. ☹️

[Colu]

On 12/13/2023 at 2:06 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

I did consider salt, but I am concerned with his stress. Would salt stress him, do you think?

 

Yeah. It was frustrating because I had only been using the strips which showed 0 the whole time. ☹️

Salt at the dose I recommended will be fine  as long as you have got plenty of surface agitation 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Added a small hide for Spike since he keeps tucking behind the sponge filter. Right now he is on some filter floss. He keeps wanting to scratch his belly and has been swimming with his belly dragging on the sand.

 

The salt has been added.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Odd Duck]

Sorry to take so long to answer but it’s been crazy busy at work.

On 12/10/2023 at 10:00 AM, Lennie said:

It basically says allicin in raw garlic is harmful but heating garlic destroys allicin so it becomes safe?

I don’t have an answer regarding snails or shrimp specifically but I will answer an “in general” way.

I have very mixed feelings about garlic because there just aren’t enough studies on what is, or isn’t, an appropriate dosage.  Garlic is proven to have anti-oxidant, some very mild anti-parasitic effects (not enough to be worth using), and some appetite stimulant effects among others.  The biggest problem is that it can also have some hemolytic effects that can cause anemia.  At high enough doses it causes the hemoglobin (the oxygen carrying molecule in red blood cells) to denature (clump) and become non-functional.  It can clump so much it distorts the shape of the red blood cell and trigger the immune system to destroy and remove the non-functional, defective red blood cell.

How much does it take for this to happen in fish?  I don’t know and neither does anybody else because the studies haven’t been done.  Not on any fish let alone on all the different species in our tanks. Is there a completely safe dose?  I don’t know that either, again, because the studies just haven’t been done.  I can find doses that cause this in dogs and cats, but not in fish.

There was one study where garlic caused liver failure in one species.  Again, it’s been too long since I did that lit search so I don’t remember the species or dose that caused the problem.

There are studies on doses of garlic that are enough to stimulate the appetite in 3-4 different species of food fish - tilapia, I think a couple species in the trout family, and was there one on flounder?  I can’t remember, it’s been a bit since I did the literature search.  There was at least 1 study I found on apparent immune stimulus from garlic in fish but I don’t remember the species and certainly don’t remember the dose.

The other problem is the variability of the “active ingredients” in garlic.  We don’t even know for certain what all ingredients are active, we presume it’s the allicin but there could be other ingredients coming into play.  Again, we don’t have the studies to support or deny this.

I typically say “Use with caution” because we simply don’t know enough to make a blanket statement across all species, or even across groups of species.  It might help, but overuse could definitely hurt.  Because of the potential bad effects in some species, it’s not typically something I recommend.  It isn’t something I use in my own tanks.  I won’t tell you to never use it, but use it very carefully and judiciously if you chose to do so.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

This is a 13 min video of Spike at feeding time. It probably won’t hold your attention, but anyway. This is what’s going on. It is kind of encouraging that he is hanging near the food, and I believe I saw one or two nips at it. But you can tell the little guy is not feeling well. 

There is just a sponge filter and an airstone in there, and a heater. The stuff behind him is seeded filter floss, which brought balance back to the water parameters. 
 

It looked to me like the air was a little too much, maybe pushing him around? But I tried reducing it and his breathing became labored. So now I added an additional hide for if he wants some shelter.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[nabokovfan87]

I wonder if there's anything going on with his swim bladder. Would that cause dragging like that?

@3:45 in the video.

[redfish]

I hate seeing our little buddies not feeling well.  You have been a champ for Spike.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 12/13/2023 at 11:09 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I wonder if there's anything going on with his swim bladder. Would that cause dragging like that?

@3:45 in the video.

2:43 also

& not sure. I’ve never had a fish with a swim bladder ailment.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Spike was in the back corner behind the sponge filter this morning. Rejected the 7 white worms I dropped on his head. So I dropped like 40 grindal worms on his head and he did eat one of those. The tetras were LOVING life at this point. LOL! Spike didn’t swim but an inch, and I could see the wobble was present.