Are fancy goldfish varieties unethical?

[HenryC]

Been thinking about that a bit lately. Sometimes I see a goldfish so chunky, with a wen so big it blocks vision and a double tail so large (or small!) that it seems they're struggling to even stay afloat and swim around. Seems even feeding these guys is a big strain to them, as they swim so clumsily that sometimes they miss the pellets. Their spines are so bent on the tail area and their bellies seems they're about to burst.

Is it safe to say that some of these are like, the fish equivalent of pugs? So selectively bred that they struggle to do even the most easiest of tasks.

Thoughts? Am I exaggerating?
 

Edited February 12, 2022 by HenryC

[BETTA999]

i have my tougth some breed are exagerated like bubble eyes but thing like orandar and rykuins are fine to me but yes i se there are a lot of problems with gold fish wen so i personally dont keep gold fish with wen

[JettsPapa]

As I've gotten older I've become slower to judge, so while I won't say it's unethical I will say that they don't appeal to me, and it's unfortunate that they appeal to other people.

[PineSong]

I don't enjoy watching any fish that appears to be awkwardly moving or struggling to swim by design, and I've seen many goldfish shapes that fit into this category, so would not buy them and thereby promote their production.

At the same time, I can't say it's worse to be a hunchback oranda or wen-overgrown goldfish than being born a "feeder" minnow, guppy, or comet goldfish who is destined to be raised and transported under miserable conditions, kept in poor conditions at most stores, and then thrown into a tank with no hope of escaping predation, and I have bought all of those (although not to use as feeders). The hobby is full of ethical minefields and each of us has to walk among them gingerly as we see fit and are able.

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by PineSong

[JettsPapa]

On 2/12/2022 at 3:38 PM, PineSong said:

I don't enjoy watching any fish that appears to be awkwardly moving or struggling to swim by design, and I've seen many goldfish shapes that fit into this category, so would not buy them and thereby promote their production.

At the same time, I can't say it's worse to be a hunchback oranda or wen-overgrown goldfish than being born a "feeder" minnow, guppy, or comet goldfish who is destined to be raised and transported under miserable conditions, kept in poor conditions at most stores, and then thrown into a tank with no hope of escaping predation, and I have bought all of those (although not to use as feeders). The hobby is full of ethical minefields and each of us has to walk among them gingerly as we see fit and are able.

 

While I agree they should be kept as healthy as possible, I don't have a problem with the concept of feeder fish.  Very few fish reach adulthood in the wild.  Most are eaten before reaching that point.

By the way, while this discussion started with discussing goldfish, the same applies to guppies with tails so large they have trouble swimming.

[HH Morant]

[lefty o]

some probably are, but ethics are an entirely personal thing.

[PineSong]

On 2/12/2022 at 5:38 PM, JettsPapa said:

By the way, while this discussion started with discussing goldfish, the same applies to guppies with tails so large they have trouble swimming.

Absolutely. I know breeders I've seen on youtube talk about selecting for a thicker, stronger peduncle and when I look at my Moscows from the LFS, I think they are an example of what to avoid in this respect. The strength-to-weight ratio is not there.

Edited February 12, 2022 by PineSong

[GardenStateGoldfish]

Fancy goldfish get the bad rap because of bad breeding, but it’s true for really all fish if care is not taken to breed for health. I do not find fancy goldfish to be unethical, it’s important to breed for healthy traits while also trying to breed for look if you want, personally I do not breed for appearance just for health. 
 

thai bred fancy goldfish are known to be way more disaster prone because they are bred in high temps pumped full of protein and grown incredibly fast leading to issues and way shortened lifespan. Chinese and Japanese bred goldfish are much hardier and healthier. The goldfish corner makes a great video on how to select healthy fancy goldfish by observing the head and the peduncle. 
 

I am also a no cull breeder just as an fyi I do not agree with that either, which is why I also do not breed for breed standard characteristics but for healthy fish. Pet quality is what I go for not show quality. 

[WhitecloudDynasty]

On 2/12/2022 at 9:30 PM, GardenStateGoldfish said:

Fancy goldfish get the bad rap because of bad breeding, but it’s true for really all fish if care is not taken to breed for health. I do not find fancy goldfish to be unethical, it’s important to breed for healthy traits while also trying to breed for look if you want, personally I do not breed for appearance just for health. 
 

thai bred fancy goldfish are known to be way more disaster prone because they are bred in high temps pumped full of protein and grown incredibly fast leading to issues and way shortened lifespan. Chinese and Japanese bred goldfish are much hardier and healthier. The goldfish corner makes a great video on how to select healthy fancy goldfish by observing the head and the peduncle. 
 

I am also a no cull breeder just as an fyi I do not agree with that either, which is why I also do not breed for breed standard characteristics but for healthy fish. Pet quality is what I go for not show quality. 

Sounds right to me! Fancy goldfish will alway have a place in my heart, but not in my fishroom due to space. 

The last paragraph I believe you ment to say you don't believe in "kill culling". Breeding for health is also a way of culling. I cull 100s of fish every year, most goes to my koi pond and live the rest of their life there. As a breeder you are responsible for the health of your stock and their future offspring. So selling cull that may breed on can get dangerous a few generation down the line.

Culling isn't necessarily a bad thing, mother nature cull 80-90% of fry every year, Only the very strong, very lucky survive.

[Goosedub]

On 2/13/2022 at 2:25 AM, WhitecloudDynasty said:

Sounds right to me! Fancy goldfish will alway have a place in my heart, but not in my fishroom due to space. 

The last paragraph I believe you ment to say you don't believe in "kill culling". Breeding for health is also a way of culling. I cull 100s of fish every year, most goes to my koi pond and live the rest of their life there. As a breeder you are responsible for the health of your stock and their future offspring. So selling cull that may breed on can get dangerous a few generation down the line.

Culling isn't necessarily a bad thing, mother nature cull 80-90% of fry every year, Only the very strong, very lucky survive.

It kind of depends what you are culling for doesn’t it? If I remember correctly, you were working on short body white clouds? If you have healthy fish but they have longer body’s, can’t you sell them or give them away?

[WhitecloudDynasty]

On 2/13/2022 at 8:45 AM, Goosedub said:

It kind of depends what you are culling for doesn’t it? If I remember correctly, you were working on short body white clouds? If you have healthy fish but they have longer body’s, can’t you sell them or give them away?

Yes they are your fish and you can do whatever you want with them. 

With fish it's hard to tell if the fish is healthy other than looking at the fish, since we can't just get an x-ray or get a vet to go through the fish. Our best bet is to let the fish grow up and age out, but most are sold young. There are also so many factors that can change the fish health like water quality and food. Unless your bred alot and have a high percent of healthy looking fish or know the history of that family of fish you can't really say "mines the most healthy stock".

[StanF]

I agree with @GardenStateGoldfish .  Fancy goldfish are not unethical, but some breeders are.  Keeping goldfish is a wonderful hobby if you know what you are doing and do it right.

StanF

[gardenman]

We're seeing the deformed body trend move into tropical fish also now with the short-bodied fish becoming more popular and bringing with them the same health issues we see in goldfish. I don't see an ethical problem in keeping such fish other than you're rewarding whoever breeds them. Keep them and try to give them as good a life as possible if you want to, just understand that their quality of life may not be the best.