Substrate opinions?

[KittenFishMom]

@eatyourpeasI have made a ring out of air hose, maybe I can get it to stay in the ring in a quiet end of the tank. poo does not tend to be in short supply in my tanks.

Did you see my "Turnip Triumphs" photos, in General Discussions? My turnip loves the poo in the water.

Edited December 31, 2021 by KittenFishMom

[Native Keeper]

One day I want to do a fine sand layer on top with a Fluval stratum on the bottom, just haven't been able to do it yet.

[eatyourpeas]

On 12/30/2021 at 7:09 PM, KittenFishMom said:

Did you see my "Turnip Triumphs" photos, in General Discussions? My turnip loves the poo in the water.

I did, and do love the colors! Friends of mine who are into aquaponics are now going the fish route as source of food for their plants. It is fun seeing what they are doing!

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 12/30/2021 at 2:36 PM, KittenFishMom said:

@Seattle_Aquarist My husband will be picking up a bag of the Safe-t-sorb tomorrow.  I ordered osmocote plus 8 lbs bag on Amazon for $11, It is normally close to $28.9, and 1,000 empty 00 capsules.  Filling the capsules should prove interesting with a cat and a kitten trying to be helpful.

I have never planted a tank before. Do I need to soak the Sate-T-Sorb, or do anything special before I add plants and or water to the tank?  How long should it sit with water before I can add snail or scuds or fish? I think I will be using a sponge filter, or 2.

Thank you so much for getting me started.

Hi @KittenFishMom

When I first started to use Safe-t-sorb (STS) I would soak and attempt to wash it but it is a clay product so it never rinsed 'clean'.  In the link above I mentioned a thread where I just used the STS straight from the bag.  Please note the use of wax paper and fill slowly at first so as not to disturb the substrate.

https://www.plantedtank.net/threads/a-45-gallon-high-a-saxa-tilly-inspired-tank.1301089/#post-11283643

Now I always just use it 'dry'.  As for Osmocote Plus I used way too many in the link above resulting in major ammonia issues.  My current dosing level is one (1) "00" capsule per 10 gallons and re-dose every five (5) weeks.  Hope this helps! -Roy

[KittenFishMom]

@Seattle_Aquarist Can you use a substrate vacuum on Safe-t-sorb (STS), if not, how do you clean it?

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 2/6/2022 at 4:01 PM, KittenFishMom said:

@Seattle_Aquarist Can you use a substrate vacuum on Safe-t-sorb (STS), if not, how do you clean it?

Hi @KittenFishMom

I don't use a substrate vac, I haven't for decades.  Why?  It is far too easy to disturb the beneficial bacteria and starting a 'mini cycle' or worse an 'ammonia spike' causing fish distress and death.  So you may wonder how I keep my tanks clean and healthy.

I do siphon 40% of the water out of each tank weekly and if there is mulm or detritus on the surface of my substrate it gets siphoned off during the water change.  I also believe in using strong filtration in my tanks, - about 10X the tank volume so a 20 gallon tank would have 200 GPH (gallons per hour) of filtration.  Lastly, I believe in a good 'cleaning crew' in my tank.  I like to have at least one Corydoras catfish per 5 gallons of tank volume not only to eat surplus food but to keep detritus stirred up off the bottom so it can be picked up by the filters.

If the front edge of my tank below the substrate starts to look 'dirty' I will "vac" the area but instead of returning the dirty water to the tank it goes into the potted plants or garden.  I think the longest I have had a tank set up with the same Safe-t-sorb substrate and not doing  a 'breakdown' and replacing the substrate is 5 years but I prefer to do it every three years.  -Roy

Edited February 8, 2022 by Seattle_Aquarist

[SandSea]

oh no, i didnt know you need to replace safe t sorb. and i recently put a bunch on top of my Red Fluorite, in all tanks, which I've never replaced. that's a drag bcuz Fluorite is so expensive, I don't want to replace it, nor have I needed to.

@Seattle_Aquarist what happens after 3-5 years , does safe t sorb crumble?

at first I honestly thought it was the exact same thing as fluorite, bcuz it LOOKS the same, however I often see a sparkly element to it, which I have never seen in my fluorite, so clearly it is not the same material

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 2/16/2022 at 11:12 AM, SandSea said:

oh no, i didnt know you need to replace safe t sorb. and i recently put a bunch on top of my Red Fluorite, in all tanks, which I've never replaced. that's a drag bcuz Fluorite is so expensive, I don't want to replace it, nor have I needed to.

@Seattle_Aquarist what happens after 3-5 years , does safe t sorb crumble?

at first I honestly thought it was the exact same thing as fluorite, bcuz it LOOKS the same, however I often see a sparkly element to it, which I have never seen in my fluorite, so clearly it is not the same material

Hi @SandSea, because Safe-t-sorb (STS) is a calcined clay product it will soften and start to break down over time.  I believe the longest I kept tanks set up with STS was a 20 gallon set up for eight plus (8+) years (04/14 - current and still going!) and a 75 gallon for six (6) years (09/13 - 10/19).  I think the determining factor is how long and to what temperature the clay was heated during the calcine (firing) process.  -Roy

[Patrick_G]

@Seattle_Aquarist, I just read through this thread. Thanks for the info on STS. Am  I right in thinking that a commercial aquasoil quickly loses it’s added nutrients but keeps it’s high CEC value? Therefore using STS with a small amount of osmocote produces the same result and a much lower cost? Also have you tried pre soaking the STS in a nutrient solution before adding it to the tank?  

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 2/16/2022 at 1:09 PM, Patrick_G said:

@Seattle_Aquarist, I just read through this thread. Thanks for the info on STS. Am  I right in thinking that a commercial aquasoil quickly loses it’s added nutrients but keeps it’s high CEC value? Therefore using STS with a small amount of osmocote produces the same result and a much lower cost? Also have you tried pre soaking the STS in a nutrient solution before adding it to the tank?  

Hi @Patrick_G

The first couple of times I used Safe-t-sorb (STS) I did try 'pre-charging' it; it has to be done when the STS is dry - straight from the bag.  I eventually went away from that because I couldn't control the amount of nutrients the STS was releasing and when I filled the tank with the wet, pre-charged STS it was much more cloudy.  

Nice looking tank BTW! -Roy

[SandSea]

On 2/16/2022 at 4:09 PM, Patrick_G said:

 

@Patrick_G here is a list of cec values , along with iron, mag, etc

https://www.cichlid-forum.com/threads/plant-substrates-data-chart.456515/#post-3153459

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 2/16/2022 at 6:38 PM, SandSea said:

@Patrick_G here is a list of cec values , along with iron, mag, etc

https://www.cichlid-forum.com/threads/plant-substrates-data-chart.456515/#post-3153459

Hi @SandSea

Jamie S. Johnson (the guy who put together the table) also wrote an excellent article on substrates for Planted Aquarium Magazine (PAM) in the Summer 2000 issue.  PAM became defunct in 2001 replaced by the Aquatic Gardeners Association (AGA.org) magazine 'The Aquatic Gardener'.  You can find a .pdf of the PAM article here, is a good read. 

BTW, Jamie Johnson is still on some of the planted tank forums and it was the article in PAM that convinced me to try calcined clay substrates.  First I used Soilmaster Select charcoal colored but it was discontinued.  Then I tried Turface but I found the product inconsistent and oily.  Finally I tried STS.  -Roy

[Patrick_G]

@Seattle_Aquarist, does commercial aquasoil fall into the clay or the calcined clay category? 

[Jennifer V]

@Seattle_Aquarist that was a really cool article. Thank you! @JoeQ there is also an article about algae in that magazine that you might find fun if you really want to Nerm out on the stuff. 🌱

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 2/16/2022 at 7:31 PM, Patrick_G said:

@Seattle_Aquarist, does commercial aquasoil fall into the clay or the calcined clay category? 

Hi @Patrick_G

From what I have read over the years Aquasoil is basically soil from rice patties in Japan that has been dried and fired so I guess you would call that a calcined soil?  It has a relatively high CEC of about 25, not as high as calcined clay but better than most substrates.  It has a lot of ammonium, some nitrates, and and good potassium levels.  I have used it but typically I have to do a lot of water changes (several per week) in the first month or so to avoid ammonia spikes and algae issues.  It's nutrient level does drop off over time.  Here is a link to a .pdf file by Tom Barr with commentary and analysis.  -Roy

[Mydonkeyfish]

I do a layer if fluval stratum then some gravel and finally a top layer of inert sand. The stratum gives the plants nutrients, the gravel holds them in place and gives the benificial bacteria a place to live and grow. The sand is for looks. Hope that helps!

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

I recently used the Rio Oscuro from Brightwell and there was no ammonia release. @Bentley Pascoehad a similar result and it is something the company has touted. 

I usually put the aquasoil on top of a layer of gravel and lava rocks with laterite underneath as 1 it's expensive to do larger tanks, 2 it provides a lot of surface area for BB, 3 it makes it easier to slope the substrate 4. I can put it in bags and resuse it ala MD Fishtanks. 

[Tarazzl]

On 12/22/2021 at 9:00 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @Imhicks101

Hi @Imhicks101

Why use layers of substrate?  I've been doing planted tanks for 13+ years and have never layered or mixed substrates.  I have used natural gravel (aka Cemex lapis lustre sand), Soilmaster Select Charcoal (discontinued), Turface Pro League Grey, Safe-t-sorb, and HTH Pool Filter Sand and I have had good results with all of them.  Soilmaster Select, Turface, and Safe-t-sorb are all calcined (fired) montmorillonite clay products with high cation exchange capacities (CEC) and large amounts of potassium and micro-nutrients which plants can access through their root systems..  In addition the high CEC of calcined clay allows the substrate to absorb nutrients from the water column and make them available to plant roots in the substrate.

You can buy a 40# bag of Safe-t-sorb for $42 on Amazon or do what I do and go to Tractor Supply Company (several in the Seattle area) and buy the same 40# bag for $7.29 (currently on sale normally $11). Here is a link on one of the high tech tanks I did with Safe-T-Sorb and a picture of the 10 gallon low tech tank I did below. Hope this helps! -Roy

https://www.plantedtank.net/threads/a-45-gallon-high-a-saxa-tilly-inspired-tank.1301089/#post-11283643

I have pea gravel, not sure if it would work for my Small Cow Hair Grass? 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 2/17/2022 at 1:47 PM, tarazzl29 said:

I have pea gravel, not sure if it would work for my Small Cow Hair Grass? 

Hi @tarazzl29

I have not been able to be successful with Eleocharis (hairgrass) species without using CO2.  The reddish grass-like plant in the tank in the picture is Helanthium tenellum (previous Echinodorus tenellus) sometimes known a Pygmy Chain Sword. 

[anewbie]

On 12/22/2021 at 8:00 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @Imhicks101

Hi @Imhicks101

Why use layers of substrate?  I've been doing planted tanks for 13+ years and have never layered or mixed substrates.  I have used natural gravel (aka Cemex lapis lustre sand), Soilmaster Select Charcoal (discontinued), Turface Pro League Grey, Safe-t-sorb, and HTH Pool Filter Sand and I have had good results with all of them.  Soilmaster Select, Turface, and Safe-t-sorb are all calcined (fired) montmorillonite clay products with high cation exchange capacities (CEC) and large amounts of potassium and micro-nutrients which plants can access through their root systems..  In addition the high CEC of calcined clay allows the substrate to absorb nutrients from the water column and make them available to plant roots in the substrate.

You can buy a 40# bag of Safe-t-sorb for $42 on Amazon or do what I do and go to Tractor Supply Company (several in the Seattle area) and buy the same 40# bag for $7.29 (currently on sale normally $11). Here is a link on one of the high tech tanks I did with Safe-T-Sorb and a picture of the 10 gallon low tech tank I did below. Hope this helps! -Roy

https://www.plantedtank.net/threads/a-45-gallon-high-a-saxa-tilly-inspired-tank.1301089/#post-11283643

The one thing I dislike about this substrate is that it is too coarse for a lot of fishes - those that like to pick through the substrate for food like geo and a lot of dwarf cichlid... 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 2/17/2022 at 3:32 PM, anewbie said:

The one thing I dislike about this substrate is that it is too coarse for a lot of fishes - those that like to pick through the substrate for food like geo and a lot of dwarf cichlid... 

Hi @anewbie,

Your post has me confused.  Below is a picture of four of our more common substrates, ADA Aquasoil Amazonia, Cemex Lapis Luster Aquarium grade, Safe-t-sorb, and HTH Pool Filter Sand.  Safe-t-sorb is about the same size as the Lapis Luster aquarium grade gravel, maybe slightly larger than ADA Aquasoil Amazonia, both of which I have seen used with Geophagus and Apistogramma species.  In addition the Safe-t-sorb is much lighter than Lapis Luster.  -Roy

Edited February 18, 2022 by Seattle_Aquarist

[Tarazzl]

On 2/17/2022 at 6:14 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @tarazzl29

I have not been able to be successful with Eleocharis (hairgrass) species without using CO2.  The reddish grass-like plant in the tank in the picture is Helanthium tenellum (previous Echinodorus tenellus) sometimes known a Pygmy Chain Sword. 

Thank you for the info.  So if I get CO2, and I will be able to plant them in pea gravel?

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 2/17/2022 at 7:27 PM, tarazzl29 said:

Thank you for the info.  So if I get CO2, and I will be able to plant them in pea gravel?

Hi @tarazzl29

Plants need sufficient light, nutrients (including a carbon source), and acceptable water parameters to grow.  I don't think that just adding CO2 would guarantee that you could get Eleocharis (harigrass) in a tank no matter what substrate is being used.  What I said was I could not grow Eleocharis in tanks without CO2, possibly others have but not me.  -Roy

[anewbie]

On 2/17/2022 at 8:59 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @anewbie,

Your post has me confused.  Below is a picture of four of our more common substrates, ADA Aquasoil Amazonia, Cemex Lapis Luster Aquarium grade, Safe-t-sorb, and HTH Pool Filter Sand.  Safe-t-sorb is about the same size as the Lapis Luster aquarium grade gravel, maybe slightly larger than ADA Aquasoil Amazonia, both of which I have seen used with Geophagus and Apistogramma species.  In addition the Safe-t-sorb is much lighter than Lapis Luster.  -Roy

The problem is apisto, geo and similar substrate eating fishes can get larger particles trapped in their gills. Pool sand is fine and something a bit grainer might work but the other three in your picture are all too coarse. The numbers I've seen recommended is 1mm or smaller particles. I suspect the sand in your picture is around .5 to 1mm. A high cec substrate like safe absorb would be great if it were a smaller particle size but I haven't found one.

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 2/17/2022 at 10:10 PM, anewbie said:

The problem is apisto, geo and similar substrate eating fishes can get larger particles trapped in their gills. Pool sand is fine and something a bit grainer might work but the other three in your picture are all too coarse. The numbers I've seen recommended is 1mm or smaller particles. I suspect the sand in your picture is around .5 to 1mm. A high cec substrate like safe absorb would be great if it were a smaller particle size but I haven't found one.

Hi @anewbie

I agree, I am not aware of a high CEC substrate that would work with sand-sifters like Geophagus sp. however I have kept Apistogramma sp. in tanks with Safe-t-sorb with no issues whatsoever including breeding.  -Roy

My old A. cacatuoides 'Triple Red'