I got 20 new cardinal tetra

[Ron Uni]

No3 @0

Now @0

Ph @ 6.5

Kh @40ppm

GH @120ppm

I got 20 cardinal tetra Sunday, treated with salt and seachem paraguard and metropoles . I have followed the directions using a 10 gallon tank quarantine tank they're sharing with 8 guppies bought from the same LFS about 8 have died.

I'm going to use this as a learning experience. Do you guys have any idea what might be causing their deaths?

[Fish Folk]

On 8/11/2021 at 2:12 PM, Ron Uni said:

No3 @0

Now @0

Ph @ 6.5

Kh @40ppm

GH @120ppm

I got 20 cardinal tetra Sunday, treated with salt and seachem paraguard and metropoles . I have followed the directions using a 10 gallon tank quarantine tank they're sharing with 8 guppies bought from the same LFS about 8 have died.

I'm going to use this as a learning experience. Do you guys have any idea what might be causing their deaths?

Sorry to hear! What's your tank temperature? Cardinals do well up above 80-degrees F.

I've kept them as warm as 85-87- degrees before.

[Jungle Fan]

I've seen them listed for 73F - 81F but in my experience if they are kept above 75F they are fine, below you will probably lose some, I've also kept them in my discus tanks at 84F, and my friends had them at 86F.

Generally if you are going to lose any Cardinal Tetras it's going to be when you first receive them due to handling in transport, change of temps in transport, and issues with feeding while at the wholesaler, or at the LFS. After you've got them acclimated they are much hardier, and more long lived than say Neon Tetras.

When I first receive them and quarantine them I generally don't add salt,or meds unless they show signs that would warrant it while in quarantine. I know some do, but I believe there is such a thing as over-medicating and producing medication resistant strains of bugs that then won't be treatable with the "big guns" any more. In nursing that's how we ended up with MRSA (Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus) which is now a nosocomial infection (a hospital acquired infection), so I'm not a fan of using medications for prophylaxis

[anewbie]

Salt might not be the best thing; also if they are tank raised no need to treat them. I picked up 10 2 weeks ago and all 10 are fine and dandy today; doesn't help you but I will note that quality of cardinals depend a lot on their source; yea yea I know you purchased them at a store but where did the store obtain them from... The ones i have are from brazil. I purchased from a store that qt fishes before selling them.

[quikv6]

Are ammonia levels 0 as well? If not, ammonia can certainly be a contributing factor.

[Ron Uni]

Ammonia levels are at 0

Temp is at 77

It's a local fish store in Houston.  But once I placed them in the aquarium maybe two hours or so later one started to swim erratically.

The first if many the next morning when I woke up there were a few stuck in the sponge filter dead.

That's when I started to treat with salt ( Monday and Tuesday) today i started the meds.

It's been a little heartbreaking I've stayed with easy fish up to now like guppies, betas, and gold fishes in different tanks. 

Got a 40 just wanting to take my guppies and other fishes into it and plant it.

Thanks for the feedback guys @Jungle Fan  @quikv6   @Fish Folk @anewbie

 

[FrozenFins]

@Ron Uni Thats really sad to here.

It sounds like this isn't your fault. If they started acting wierd hours after introducing them, and your parameters are what you say they are then its probably the distrubuters fault. You can always call your store to see if there cardinal tetras are acting fine, or see if other customers have had problems with it. 

It could be a problem of there water parameters. And the Cardinal Tetras couldn't take the shock to the recent change of water parameters. @Irene recentley had a simillar problem with fish that she brought home from a lfs as well:

 

[anewbie]

You might ask the houston store where they sourced them. Most cardinals are wild some from peru other from brazil but there are a few large operations that breed them. I know of one in florida (tend to have pretty good stock but not always). Cardinals are one of those fishes that are not too delicate once they settle in but are not easy to breed due to requiring extremely soft acidic water (more difficult than your typical blackwater fish).

 

You could try mail ordering them. aquahuna sells them for not too much and has $12 flat rate shipping. I've not ordered cardinals from aquahuna so cannot vouch for them. I've been ordering mine from wetspot and they have been excellent with no deaths (2 different orders of 10+ each); but wetpsot shipping is $40 so only practical if ordering other stuff. I specifically order brazil cardinals for a number of reason (not sure if the other ones they sell are as hardy). I stopped buying cardinals from my local fish store because of health issues and high death rate.

--

Also cardinals are one of those fishes that do better in a mature tank. They are not super sensitive and the older ones i have - have taken a lot of abuse (after all if you drive them 1500 miles in your car they aren't going to be treated with silk gloves); but they are sensitive to sudden changes and impure water.

Edited August 11, 2021 by anewbie

[Ron Uni]

@anewbiethanks I read that aqua huna breeds their own cardinal tetra, I will call the LFS I'm supposed to go get some plants from them. These cardinal tetras were in special at $1.99 maybe they were trying to dump them.

Thanks @James Black  @James B

[Ron Uni]

So I called the store they're wild caught and we're kept at a temperature of 82. Something they forgot to say.

[Colu]

It could be osmotic shock I would ask the LFS what water parameters they keep their fish in

[Ron Uni]

I don't know what it is, of the 20 i bought i only have 7 left and I'm assuming they will die at some point within this quarantine process

They've all looked like this after dying

Sorry Col train I can't erase your @ @Col_train

[Ron Uni]

@anewbie

I get what you're saying but I still want to quarantine my fish before I add them into my established tank.

I'm in Texas the water is hard here and I've read that they're more for softer acidic water.

It's something I'll have to look into before buying another batch or just try with another type of tetra maybe neon, not sure very saddened by the lose of life of these fishes. 

 

Thanks for your input guys it's been really helpful.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Ron Uni

[Ron Uni]

So I went to my fish store I took a bottle of the water from my quarantine tank and was shocked to find out that my test strips were way off from the master test kit they used to test the water.

My pH was at 7.8

Ammonia at .50

Nitrite at .25

Nitrate at 5.0

GH at 60

Kh at 40

I felt like I was doing everything I can but the tools I was using weren't helping me or my fishes.

Now I know what was killing them bought the master test kit for now my buy something better if y'all can recommend anything else.

Thanks for listening to me rant and vent. I know y'all understand where I'm coming from.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Ron Uni

[Colu]

I would start doing daily 30% water changes and dose with prime to help detoxify your nitrites and ammonia for now till your Qarantine tank cycled

[Ron Uni]

@Colu thanks I'll do that now

[anewbie]

Your qt tank isn't cycled as @colu noted.  You need to put some prime or similar in the tank to neutralize that ammonia. Cardinals will not tolerate any ammonia or nitrite and 30% water change will probably not cut it; the ammonia will just reform in a day or so. Guppies and swordtails can tolerate a little ammonia and nitrite and I've used them to cycle tanks before but in all honestly this is a lost cause if you will try to qt fishes in an uncycled tank. 

-

What I normally do for a qt tank is use a sponge filter from my regular tank that has been in there for at least a month; even then I monitor ammonia daily and at the first sign put in a few drop of sachem prime to neutralize it. Still cardinals are not a good fish to expose to ammonia. This is easy for me since all my tanks have extra sponge filters in them. This also makes it easy to move a fish to pail if i need to medicate it - just put in some water; add a mature sponge filter and toss in the fish.... and everyone is happy (i've had a sick fish in a pail now for 2 months). Anyway good luck. 

 

[There are other products that will neutralize ammonia besides sachem prime but since that is the only one i've used it is the one i mentioned. The problem with it is that ammonia will still measure with tests it is just in a less deadly state.]

 

[Ron Uni]

@anewbie  I took my extra sponge filter from my 10 and it's running in my qt as us the hob filter with good bacteria in those filters. I got it all sorted out now used prime as well. The tetra test strips where showing me false readings which lead me to fail so miserably with those cardinal tetras. Got an API master test kit.

Did a 50% water change and all the parameters are good will be checking a few times a day to keep everything in line.

Just dealing with the pH that's now sitting at 7.2

I have hard water here in Texas I read somewhere that hard water keeps pH level high

Edited August 13, 2021 by Ron Uni

[FrozenFins]

I use the API Master Test kit and see expetional results. I dont think theres a better test kit on the market. The only downside to this test kit is the time it takes to test the water. Aquarium Co-Op have there own test strips, all though I have never used them  I have heard good reviews from it. The good thing about test strips is that they are quick and easy to use:
https://www.aquariumcoop.com/products/aquarium-co-op-multi-test-strips?_pos=2&_psq=test str&_ss=e&_v=1.0

Edited August 13, 2021 by James Black

[Hobbit]

On 8/13/2021 at 12:19 AM, Ron Uni said:

hard water keeps pH level high

Hard water and high pH can go together, but they don’t have to. High KH (buffer) and high pH go together almost always. But you could have a lot of calcium, magnesium, and other minerals in your water without having a lot of buffer. 

I have cardinal tetras at pH 8.2 in my big community tank and they’re doing fine. The pH on its own shouldn’t be a big issue for the cardinals in my experience, but if you have ammonia, it does become more toxic as the pH goes up. (I do want to get the pH down in that tank eventually.)

Sorry about your fish and your test strips! I use the co-op’s test strips and they’ve been working well for me, but I know some people never use test strips and always go with the API kit.

[Ron Uni]

@James BlackI'll definitely look into Cory's test strips but I don't mind the process of testing the water.

@Hobbit yeah it must of been the ammonia killing them. 

[anewbie]

Don't muck with the ph if it is the same as your other tanks. If the ph is not the same as your other tank then I would be concern that something is being introduced to the water that is changing it. Most fishes can adjust to a reasonable range of ph; if all your tanks have alkaline water and you muck with it then when you move the fish to the target tank they will have to adjust with it; if you muck with the target tank ph you will have to muck with it everytime you do a water change risking a shock to your fish on a regular basis. Stability is more important than the exact value in most cases. Naturally there are extremes.

-

The two big things to watch out with the api master kit is to make sure you don't use expired chemicals (for a new kit this shouildn't be an issue) and be sure to shake that nitrate #2 a full minute before adding to the tube and after adding it to the tube to get a reasonable reading. I suppose the other negative is that for some of the tests the different values are difficult to read do to narrow colour range (nitrate kit drives me crazy luckily exact values are not required).

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by anewbie

[Ron Uni]

@anewbie thanks that actually makes sense. My qt was a little higher then my established tank, I'll try to get the qt parameters to be more in line with my established tank. Thanks for your help.

[Torrey]

On 8/11/2021 at 3:01 PM, Ron Uni said:

Ammonia levels are at 0

Temp is at 77

It's a local fish store in Houston.  But once I placed them in the aquarium maybe two hours or so later one started to swim erratically.

The first if many the next morning when I woke up there were a few stuck in the sponge filter dead.

That's when I started to treat with salt ( Monday and Tuesday) today i started the meds.

It's been a little heartbreaking I've stayed with easy fish up to now like guppies, betas, and gold fishes in different tanks. 

Got a 40 just wanting to take my guppies and other fishes into it and plant it.

Thanks for the feedback guys @Jungle Fan  @quikv6   @Fish Folk @anewbie

 

Have you contacted the store and asked them how long they had the fish, and if they have lost any from the same batch?

Occasionally, fish can come in with a problem and the shock of shipping etc isn't quite enough to show up as a problem at the store.... but the extra shock of store to new home is the laat straw.

[Torrey]

NVM, I just finished reading the rest of the thread.

 

Cardinals will forgive a lot, but they do not tolerate ammonia or chlorine. Try not to beat yourself up, you trusted your tools and did the best you could, and asked for more information. 

Cardinals will acclimate to water up to pH 8.2. Their eggs need more acidic water to successfully hatch, but the fish do well.

 

I live with liquid rock.... like there is so much calcium in the water people and animals get kidney stones 😬

Find woods and leaves that help lower your pH, instead of relying on chemical buffers. Allow the tank time to stabilize (this is part of the reason I am doing a Walstad tank is to determine how much decomposition I need to get down to 6.8.... or if it's even possible to get there and maintain  ....)

Unless you are wanting to breed cardinals, I think your parameters (with healthy beneficial bacteria colony) are fine