Magic Number

[Guppysnail]

On 7/8/2021 at 7:57 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

True about the $, kind of like you have to have a heater. 

Yup look at pea puffers… they live in large groups and are peaceful. Alone they become over aggressive and agitated so you cant keep stuff with them so they sell you more tanks and equipment. I actually read a study on that but have never kept them. 

[KentFishFanUK]

On 7/9/2021 at 12:48 AM, Guppysnail said:

My first run at cpd i had 2 g 1 boy. They did fantastic all by themselves 

Good to know! Thought they were supposed to be shy lol. I like small tanks so these are sounding better and better!

[Guppysnail]

On 7/8/2021 at 8:06 PM, KentFishFanUK said:

Good to know! Thought they were supposed to be shy lol. I like small tanks so these are sounding better and better!

Yup i had java moss in corner in front. Every morning they kaid and i had multiple of same decorations with moss i would keep in a fry tank. Switch out every morning. I ended up with so many i removed every stitch of moss from their tank so they would consume the overflow. That set i only ever had the 3 adults. Rest went to the LFS for cash

[Guppysnail]

On 7/8/2021 at 8:06 PM, KentFishFanUK said:

Good to know! Thought they were supposed to be shy lol. I like small tanks so these are sounding better and better!

BTW mine now and then are spectacular and NEVER shy and eat like piggies. I dont know where some if the internet stuff comes from. But if your parameters are not solid and consistent they will not do well. I had 1 spike and they hid didnt eat for 2 days. Overzealous with the filter cleaning my bad

[sudofish]

I have 7 dwarf neon rainbowfish. I "think" I have 6 males and 1 female. I emailed the store and they told me they were too young to sex and that trying to sex by fin coloration on those fish isn't 100% accurate. They only form up if they think it's feeding time. The rest of the time they are battling it out non-stop. I'm debating getting more or rehoming them and getting another species entirely.

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

On 7/8/2021 at 6:01 PM, Guppysnail said:

Yup look at pea puffers… they live in large groups and are peaceful. Alone they become over aggressive and agitated so you cant keep stuff with them so they sell you more tanks and equipment. I actually read a study on that but have never kept them. 

Interesting. So far for my personal tanks that is also the case with the meekong river puffer pao palustris as well. 6 are happy to ignore variatus platys breeding in their 75 gallon and spread their occasional shennanigans across their group. The Pao baileyi Hairy puffer are smilarly more relaxed in a group or in a bonded pair set up for me.

[CalmedByFish]

 @KentFishFanUK , great question! 

I've noticed that when I have a drop of endlers, the teeny babies shoal together almost immediately. The first hour after birth, they may hide in the plants, motionless, but quickly find each other. Before they're all born, the shoal is already well-established. Then the shoal of big-eyed specks stick together for about a week before dispersing to swim among the older endlers. 

When 1 newbie doesn't find the shoal, it tends to stay almost motionless. When 2-3 haven't found the shoal, but have found each other, they stay together, moving just a little.

So while I don't know about other species, I do know tiny endler fry who have found their big shoal are much calmer, more active, and their motions are less erratic. 

I've also noticed that among the adult endlers, the more fish there are, the more likely that every fish will eat. They copy each other, so it helps to have as many eyes as possible on the look-out for food, and as many mouths as possible to watch and copy-cat. 

[Guppysnail]

On 7/8/2021 at 9:08 PM, CalmedByFish said:

 @KentFishFanUK , great question! 

I've noticed that when I have a drop of endlers, the teeny babies shoal together almost immediately. The first hour after birth, they may hide in the plants, motionless, but quickly find each other. Before they're all born, the shoal is already well-established. Then the shoal of big-eyed specks stick together for about a week before dispersing to swim among the older endlers. 

When 1 newbie doesn't find the shoal, it tends to stay almost motionless. When 2-3 haven't found the shoal, but have found each other, they stay together, moving just a little.

So while I don't know about other species, I do know tiny endler fry who have found their big shoal are much calmer, more active, and their motions are less erratic. 

I've also noticed that among the adult endlers, the more fish there are, the more likely that every fish will eat. They copy each other, so it helps to have as many eyes as possible on the look-out for food, and as many mouths as possible to watch and copy-cat. 

Interesting my guppy fry always do their own thing from go. They only group when their tiny tummies are full big and pink and they hover together to digest. Hubby says they look too full to swim so they float 🤣 

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

On 7/8/2021 at 4:21 PM, KentFishFanUK said:

Just something I was pondering and wondered what you experts thought -

Every time we talk schooling/shoaling or even just most small fish we obviously say they prefer to be in groups right. I get that that's because of how they live in the wild, safety in numbers etc. 

When stocking our aquariums the majority of species that like to be in groups (or at least the common ones I own or have looked into - be it Corydoras, neon tetras, multi's, some even say it about pea puffers and endlers and I'm sure many many more) the most common general consensus seems to be that the bare minimum number is 6. 

What makes 6 the magic number?

I understand more is always better and that in the wild they would live in huge colonies but why 6 as the bare minimum? Why not 5? Or 10? Or 20? Or 2?

Is there a scientific reason? Was there a well thought of scientific paper about it? Simply an amount people have observed as working in most situations? Cynically is it perhaps just the largest 'minimum' us hobbyists could stomach or be convinced of?

I mean fish can't count right - and surely 6 Corydoras in a 20 gallon might all hang out but 6 Corydoras in an 800 gallon might not even be aware of each others existence. And 1 in 6 odds of not dying to a predator wouldn't make me feel very particularly safe. 

To be clear I'm only curious not doubtful, it's almost more of a question of understanding the history of the hobby and where the number 6 came from than anything else. Oh and sorry if this topic has been done, just trying to start an interesting conversation and hear others insights!

Short answer is i think 6 is something customers can handle for the smaller sized tanks but generally more is better if within "reason". I do have some opinions and reasoning on my magic number :

** Schooling species and all fry **

I often apply the rule of 6 for growing species that are not commonly thought of as schooling as well. I would say for all species 6 is more for reducing the level of alertness/stress each fish has to have, spreading out aggression during growing to adult size, and to act as a bit of a dither fish for each other in the tank. The bigger group evens out behaviors and I believe limit stress by allowing the school to be collectively alert for predators and each fish only having to be proportionally stressed/aware. My opinion is that the lower the numbers of a species in a school the shorter the lives of those individuals just because each fish must be more alert/stressed for possible predators. 

** Non-schooling fish in groups of 6 **

 My personal theory is that 6 gives me the best possible chance of a non-schooling species forming a fully bonded adult pair in an environment which would simulate competition and natural selection within their species group.

Its not the traditional 6 minimum idea but I believe it allows for the strongest individuals to outcompete the others, form a stronger pair bond, forces better parental care, and produces stronger fry.

I have done initial groups of 6 with more than a few species of cichlids, freshwater puffers of the pao group, flagfish, mouthbrooding betta, african butterfly fish, plecos, livebearers, corydoras type catfish, and a few loach species with pretty good success so far.

[KentFishFanUK]

On 7/9/2021 at 2:08 AM, CalmedByFish said:

 @KentFishFanUK , great question! 

I've noticed that when I have a drop of endlers, the teeny babies shoal together almost immediately. The first hour after birth, they may hide in the plants, motionless, but quickly find each other. Before they're all born, the shoal is already well-established. Then the shoal of big-eyed specks stick together for about a week before dispersing to swim among the older endlers. 

When 1 newbie doesn't find the shoal, it tends to stay almost motionless. When 2-3 haven't found the shoal, but have found each other, they stay together, moving just a little.

So while I don't know about other species, I do know tiny endler fry who have found their big shoal are much calmer, more active, and their motions are less erratic. 

I've also noticed that among the adult endlers, the more fish there are, the more likely that every fish will eat. They copy each other, so it helps to have as many eyes as possible on the look-out for food, and as many mouths as possible to watch and copy-cat. 

Thanks!

And interesting answer! It makes sense that it's even more important for fry given their survival chances in the wild. 

I hadn't thought about the looking out for food aspect but again it does make sense and is a good reason to keep groups even with species that many say would do fine alone etc. Definitely something to consider when thinking about stocking levels! Or at least be on the look out for when keeping smaller groups. 

[KentFishFanUK]

On 7/9/2021 at 3:15 AM, mountaintoppufferkeeper said:

Short answer is i think 6 is something customers can handle for the smaller sized tanks but generally more is better if within "reason". I do have some opinions and reasoning on my magic number :

** Schooling species and all fry **

I often apply the rule of 6 for growing species that are not commonly thought of as schooling as well. I would say for all species 6 is more for reducing the level of alertness/stress each fish has to have, spreading out aggression during growing to adult size, and to act as a bit of a dither fish for each other in the tank. The bigger group evens out behaviors and I believe limit stress by allowing the school to be collectively alert for predators and each fish only having to be proportionally stressed/aware. My opinion is that the lower the numbers of a species in a school the shorter the lives of those individuals just because each fish must be more alert/stressed for possible predators. 

** Non-schooling fish in groups of 6 **

 My personal theory is that 6 gives me the best possible chance of a non-schooling species forming a fully bonded adult pair in an environment which would simulate competition and natural selection within their species group.

Its not the traditional 6 minimum idea but I believe it allows for the strongest individuals to outcompete the others, form a stronger pair bond, forces better parental care, and produces stronger fry.

I have done initial groups of 6 with more than a few species of cichlids, freshwater puffers of the pao group, flagfish, mouthbrooding betta, african butterfly fish, plecos, livebearers, corydoras type catfish, and a few loach species with pretty good success so far.

Thanks for the well thought out reply! This is the content I joined the forum for! 

Thanks for expanding my knowledge about schooling fish. I had only considered that they instinctively feel safer with big groups but spreading out 'look-out' duties and therefore reducing the workload on each individual must reduce stress and allow more time for eating and breeding etc. Holds true for any herd/pack animal I would imagine!

Also good tip for breeding right there, increased competition results in stronger fry. Let's nature do more of the selecting right. I will remember that one! 

[CalmedByFish]

On 7/9/2021 at 12:53 AM, KentFishFanUK said:

I hadn't thought about the looking out for food aspect

Just an interesting side note: I live in a place that regularly drops below 0*F during winter. The colder it gets, the more diligent I am about throwing out seed for a big flock of sparrows. Always, 1 will come alone, land on the seed a second, fly up to a bush or roof, and start singing at the top of his tiny lungs. A few sparrows at a time, then dozens at a time, rapidly come swooping in and onto the seed. Then the "scout" also eats. Only now is it occurring to me that the endlers are similar - though I think they're more "monkey see, monkey do," rather than intentionally helping each other.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@CalmedByFish I've seen that too in birds- especially the smaller species. It's been in the 100s here, drought going on and so food and water is likely a lot more sparse now so I'm feeding more than usual. I've always thrown seed for my ground feeders and kept a couple of bird baths (one low one high). The smaller the bird the higher the numbers- my House Sparrows come in groups of 10-30 and they do talk to each other and keep an eye out- and if one flies in a panic nearly the WHOLE group does. Then the Mourning Doves while I have fed as many as 20+ at a time there is consistently 4-6 right now they come when the Sparrows come or even when the Scrub Jays do. I've actually grown to really respect the Scrubs- they will alert EVERYONE when danger is near or when it's clear to come in and eat- I have even learned which call it is- and will come to help if it's the alert song- and see if I can scoot away the neighbor's cat or once I rescued a juvenile who'd hit the window- the parents and extended family were very upset, put him back in the tree and once I went inside they settled down after a few minutes. 

[KentFishFanUK]

On 7/9/2021 at 7:58 AM, CalmedByFish said:

Just an interesting side note: I live in a place that regularly drops below 0*F during winter. The colder it gets, the more diligent I am about throwing out seed for a big flock of sparrows. Always, 1 will come alone, land on the seed a second, fly up to a bush or roof, and start singing at the top of his tiny lungs. A few sparrows at a time, then dozens at a time, rapidly come swooping in and onto the seed. Then the "scout" also eats. Only now is it occurring to me that the endlers are similar - though I think they're more "monkey see, monkey do," rather than intentionally helping each other.

Interesting behaviour! (Also what an awesome thing to watch).

Also makes me wonder, do fish communicate in any appreciable way? Other than the flaring/fighting/chasing etc that we know about related to breeding or territory. 

[KentFishFanUK]

On 7/9/2021 at 8:18 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@CalmedByFish I've seen that too in birds- especially the smaller species. It's been in the 100s here, drought going on and so food and water is likely a lot more sparse now so I'm feeding more than usual. I've always thrown seed for my ground feeders and kept a couple of bird baths (one low one high). The smaller the bird the higher the numbers- my House Sparrows come in groups of 10-30 and they do talk to each other and keep an eye out- and if one flies in a panic nearly the WHOLE group does. Then the Mourning Doves while I have fed as many as 20+ at a time there is consistently 4-6 right now they come when the Sparrows come or even when the Scrub Jays do. I've actually grown to really respect the Scrubs- they will alert EVERYONE when danger is near or when it's clear to come in and eat- I have even learned which call it is- and will come to help if it's the alert song- and see if I can scoot away the neighbor's cat or once I rescued a juvenile who'd hit the window- the parents and extended family were very upset, put him back in the tree and once I went inside they settled down after a few minutes. 

Almost makes me wish I didn't have a cat, I love birds! There are a few house sparrows that nest in the eaves of our neighbors house a few feet away from our bathroom window and I love watching them coming and going and feeding their babies whilst I shower haha. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@KentFishFanUK Oh I have 2 cats. But they stay inside. They enjoy bird and squirrel tv, and can care less about the fish. 🙂 

[KentFishFanUK]

On 7/9/2021 at 9:29 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@KentFishFanUK Oh I have 2 cats. But they stay inside. They enjoy bird and squirrel tv, and can care less about the fish. 🙂 

Ours goes outside, she never catches birds or anything (despite being a stray before we adopted her) only the odd fly or bug but I think I would be pushing my luck if I fed birds on the ground. We also live by the coast and always have seagulls nesting which are quite aggressive when nesting and would be more than a match for our cat so don't want to encourage her chasing birds! She hasn't paid any attention to our fish tank but does like to watch the goldfish in the pond 

[ARMYVET]

On 7/8/2021 at 7:47 PM, Guppysnail said:

plecos see me and sit like puppies each in their own food bowl.

That I would love to see a pic of!!

[Guppysnail]

On 7/9/2021 at 7:38 AM, ARMYVET said:

That I would love to see a pic of!!

Ill try to getvpicture for you it is so cute and funny

Edited July 9, 2021 by Guppysnail

[Guppysnail]

On 7/9/2021 at 7:38 AM, ARMYVET said:

That I would love to see a pic of!!

They dont come out until around 5 so I actually had to give them a green bean to get s pic

[ARMYVET]

HOLY CRAP😲 

You were not kidding!!! 

 Thats awesome!!!

And the snail has their own bowl as wel!!! 

Gorgeous Plecos BTW are they a pair?

[Guppysnail]

On 7/9/2021 at 9:24 AM, ARMYVET said:

HOLY CRAP😲 

You were not kidding!!! 

 Thats awesome!!!

And the snail has their own bowl as wel!!! 

Gorgeous Plecos BTW are they a pair?

Thanks. They are just starting to show sex one has some lip whiskers and is furiously grooming his two chosen caves each in her favorite hanging place on each side of the tank. They have 6 to choose from in case they were both male. the other is getting a rounder belly than normal never goes in caves no whiskers so I believe they will be a mating pair 🥰 i got them end of march they were about 1.5-2 inches. Yup 4 mystery snails have a bowl but use all of them. Other than to shine the shells the plecos share. Shrimp bother everyone cpd do their antics. They are longfin lemon blue eyes. That is my favorite tank to watch. 

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

On 7/9/2021 at 12:04 AM, KentFishFanUK said:

Thanks for the well thought out reply! This is the content I joined the forum for! 

Thanks for expanding my knowledge about schooling fish. I had only considered that they instinctively feel safer with big groups but spreading out 'look-out' duties and therefore reducing the workload on each individual must reduce stress and allow more time for eating and breeding etc. Holds true for any herd/pack animal I would imagine!

Also good tip for breeding right there, increased competition results in stronger fry. Let's nature do more of the selecting right. I will remember that one! 

Happy to share my thoughts there.

Just my personal views on it based off of observing fish in my aquariums over the years and thinking about the why behind the behaviors and interactions I see.  I refine that individual philosophy of keeping fish as I learn more but my opinion is those are the real benefits to the keeping fish in groups that work for my setups when I can. 

[CalmedByFish]

On 7/9/2021 at 2:18 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

 I've actually grown to really respect the Scrubs- they will alert EVERYONE when danger is near or when it's clear to come in and eat- I have even learned which call it is- and will come to help if it's the alert song

So basically you're a Scrub Jay. 🤣 

Seriously though, I love this. 

[Bobbie]

On 7/9/2021 at 12:20 AM, KentFishFanUK said:

I think the odd number thing is something to do with spreading out aggression? Though I can only think that makes 3 better than 2, can't work out why 3 would ever be better than 4 for example. But then we are getting into the realms of mathematics and my brain just doesn't compute haha. 

Interesting about the Danios! Care to describe what about their behaviour changed? I don't know much about danios but I guess I just always pictured them zooming about regardless of group size haha. Was it a linearly gradual change to behaviour as each died off or did you notice a bigger change at certain numbers? i.e. did you happen to notice if going from 7 to 6 wasn't much change but 6 to 5 was a big difference? Or was going from 6 to 5 the same effect as 7 to 6?

Basically I'm curious if you noticed anything special about the number 6 I guess? Or any other number for that matter. 

Oops didn’t notice this until now, sorry! This got a bit long and ran away from the point of your question because it seems I don’t know when to shut up. 
 

My zebra danios have never been a tight bunch and will happily stay away from each other while exploring the tank. Really the only time I see them in a group is when they’re eating an algae wafer or they’re sleeping. 

For the few weeks I only had 3 danios, they stuck together and never seemed to stop moving (if they got spooked I’d hear them crashing against the glass trying to get away) - they were also somewhat aggressive to each other, lost a lot of their colour, and were hiding most of the day. It really wasn’t fun to watch compared to how they had been. I’d noticed them becoming more skittish and fearful as the numbers had went down, but I didn’t expect the change to happen within days. 
 

Once I bought the extra danios and added them in, it was like a switch was flipped. At first they were all in a very tight group and were jumping quite a bit, but after a few hours they settled back down and split into pairs or trios to wander around the tank. For a week or so they harassed the snails, which hadn’t happened before, but that mostly stopped once they realised they can’t bite through shell. 
 

I’d often read that zebra danios always hang out in the middle-upper levels of the tank and don’t spent too much time down the bottom, but for the 5-ish months I kept them as a species-only tank they actually preferred to stick close to the substrate and only went near the surface if there was food floating. Once I added the corydoras they started spending more time away from the substrate but they’ll still often go and swim around wherever the corycats are chilling, especially the males - even when there’s no food. 
When I added the male betta to the tank they spent a day or so lurking in a corner watching him warily (although the corycats didn’t care at all) but now they’ll happily eat with him and don’t seem to mind when he joins their group at bedtime. 
 

Some other interesting things I’ve noticed is that the danios love to rip up the roots of every java fern I try to grow in the tank, it’s the first thing they do every morning when the lights go on. Also, whenever I dose the tank with API white spot cure the corydoras don’t act differently at all (even though the packaging says that catfish are sensitive to it so I only put in half the recommended dosage) but the zebra danios lose their appetite and become very lethargic until I’ve done a water change or two. I’m not sure why, and I’ve never seen anyone else mention it. 
 

Overall zebra danios are amazing and a super underrated fish, and I’d love to put a large group of them in something like a 50 gallon or larger to see how their behaviour changes.