Problems with med trio ?

[Kristinn]

So, one of my tanks (classic guppies/snails/shrimp tank) had some clear parasite issues so I medicated it with paracleanse according to Aquarium Coop's directions and that is going very well. However I decided to medicate another tank I have because I have been using the same nets back and forth and some of the mollies there had clamped fins and another fish there had recently got half her tail bitten off so I figured the antibacterial and anti fungal wouldn't hurt so I hit it with the full classic trio, Marycin, ich-x and paracleanse. The morning after, the tank is super cloudy, fish gasping for air and my salvini male  starts showing some extreme dying behaviour (sinking to the bottom, smashing into the substrate and decor, floating upside down, etc...). So I did a 80% waterchange and added an airstone but meanwhile the salvini male died. Has anyone had a similar experience with those meds? I think they might have maybe killed a lot of beneficial bacteria and/or depleted the water of oxygen.

[FrozenFins]

what are your water parameters?

[Kristinn]

I measure the water every week. Ammonia and nitrite steady at 0.

Nitrates always 0 or <10

ph :6.5

gh: 0-50

kh 0-30

tc: 0

temp: 24c/75f

[Kristinn]

And I just measured ammonia now and it is 0. But then again if ammonia was the problem I did already do a 80% waterchange yesterday. Also did a 6in1 test strip now and the parameters are the same except ph is up to 7 now. Also forgot to mention that ph has been going as low as 5.5 recently.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Kristinn

[Mmiller2001]

On 12/2/2020 at 8:11 AM, Kristinn said:

So, one of my tanks (classic guppies/snails/shrimp tank) had some clear parasite issues so I medicated it with paracleanse according to Aquarium Coop's directions and that is going very well. However I decided to medicate another tank I have because I have been using the same nets back and forth and some of the mollies there had clamped fins and another fish there had recently got half her tail bitten off so I figured the antibacterial and anti fungal wouldn't hurt so I hit it with the full classic trio, Marycin, ich-x and paracleanse. The morning after, the tank is super cloudy, fish gasping for air and my salvini male  starts showing some extreme dying behaviour (sinking to the bottom, smashing into the substrate and decor, floating upside down, etc...). So I did a 80% waterchange and added an airstone but meanwhile the salvini male died. Has anyone had a similar experience with those meds? I think they might have maybe killed a lot of beneficial bacteria and/or depleted the water of oxygen.Did

By any chance, did you not have an air stone going?

Also, if you truly did have a pH of 5.5, that has to mean you have 0KH or some massive acid leaching into the tank. Drastic pH swings is a killer. And low pH can cause BB dormancy.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Mmiller2001

[Kristinn]

Thank you a lot for the reply man, Yes I did not have an airstone the first 12 or so hours of the med time. I immediately put in an airstone as I realized the fish acting strange. And yes I do have 0KH, is that a problem? Btw its not really drastic ph swings going on, its actually pretty stable at that level, 5.5 or 6 ( sometimes at 6.5 but usually 5.5 or 6).
Actually I measured the water just now while writing this and to my surprise the kh was about 80 ish. Maybe more frequent waterchanges will help keep the ph and kh a bit higher (my tap water has ph about 6.5 and kh about 80). I can't think of anything acidic getting in the tank.

[Mmiller2001]

5 minutes ago, Kristinn said:

Thank you a lot for the reply man, Yes I did not have an airstone the first 12 or so hours of the med time. I immediately put in an airstone as I realized the fish acting strange. And yes I do have 0KH, is that a problem? Btw its not really drastic ph swings going on, its actually pretty stable at that level, 5.5 or 6 ( sometimes at 6.5 but usually 5.5 or 6).
Actually I measured the water just now while writing this and to my surprise the kh was about 80 ish. Maybe more frequent waterchanges will help keep the ph and kh a bit higher (my tap water has ph about 6.5 and kh about 80). I can't think of anything acidic getting in the tank.

0KH isn't necessarily a problem, just know pH is free to swing, drastically at times, in a 0KH environment. As our water becomes more acidic, the BB can go dormant and stop the nitrogen cycle. Just be aware! Nitrates and other things, tannins and such, are acids. Also, if you have plants, during lights off, plants release CO². The CO²  is then converted to carbonic acid. Test your pH an hour before lights on and see just how low it is.

I also keep a low KH. So once a week I check KH. I do small weekly water changes just to maintain the KH. 

I imagine the problems you had were several things. 1, the meds changed the viscosity of the water lowering O². 2, 0KH could have allowed pH to drop in the high CO² environment. 3, the addition of the air stone may have caused a pH spike by addition of O². These possible rapid changes, coupled with sick fish, may have been enough to cause your cascading fish loss.

[Kristinn]

5 minutes ago, Mmiller2001 said:

0KH isn't necessarily a problem, just know pH is free to swing, drastically at times, in a 0KH environment. As our water becomes more acidic, the BB can go dormant and stop the nitrogen cycle. Just be aware! Nitrates and other things, tannins and such, are acids. Also, if you have plants, during lights off, plants release CO². The CO²  is then converted to carbonic acid. Test your pH an hour before lights on and see just how low it is.

I also keep a low KH. So once a week I check KH. I do small weekly water changes just to maintain the KH. 

I imagine the problems you had were several things. 1, the meds changed the viscosity of the water lowering O². 2, 0KH could have allowed pH to drop in the high CO² environment. 3, the addition of the air stone may have caused a pH spike by addition of O². These possible rapid changes, coupled with sick fish, may have been enough to cause your cascading fish loss.

thanks, your answers have been really helpful and put things into perspective. I think I will have a better understanding on some things now moving forward.

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

A bit old but fihured id post my observations for the group .... the original med trio was something i used everytime. The paracleanse is a little different in my system than the original it replaced but valuable.

I just checked my paracleanse side effects in real time. I used it on my left side optional sump rack system with some wild caught new arrivals to the room. The  right side rack has same options, substrate, effective fishload, plant load, and seasoning. Both sides are independent but essentially identical systems 

Tested both with coop strips at same time photo of tests are 60 seconds horizontal post 3 second dip (per the directions).

Left side strip with paracleanse (day 3 dose)right side strip without. The label warning notes it can mess up the beneficial bacteria and could cause ammonia poisoning in some circumstances if not mitigated. My results show an 80ppm KH increase and  ph increase of 0.6 +/- .

I believe paracleanse can negatively affect beneficial bacteria and does for me. I may use the Fritz ACCR to prevent ammonia poisoning while treating paracleanse on future doses as it suggests. For me + 80 KH, a 0.6  PH increase, BB die off, and possible ammonia issues are a reality for paracleanse but it works for what it does.

Anyone know if Fritz ACCR is able to be used with the full trio without impacting the other two meds involved ( paracleanse specifically notes it is safe with it)?

[Steph’s Fish and Plants]

Very much intrigued now, I was about to get para cleanse since I am almost out of general cure and just started treating for gill flukes in my 20 after I’ve had some weird losses recently. (I also treated with Prazi). I tested my water the day before and the day I started treatment, I’m tempted now to test my water throughout treatment and I’d be very interested if you did the same (maybe start a new thread so it doesn’t overtake this one).

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread post…

I agree with what the others are saying. Running a system with a pH as low as 5.5 is honestly pretty gutsy, as mentioned above the bacteria go dormant when the pH drops below a certain point (I believe 6.4) as ammonia transforms to ammonium, which builds up and up and up but isn’t toxic. However, when the pH comes back above 6.4, depending on how long it’s been, a lot of the bacteria (to my knowledge) has died off, and the ammonium will instantly transform to toxic ammonia again. This is why I always buffer my Kh and recommend others do the same (I work at my LFS and this is a common theme since our city water has notoriously low Kh). Now if you were to keep the pH low and stable, it probably wouldn’t cause any issues as long as it didn’t go too low, which 5.5 is Pretty low, I think that’s where chocolate gourami like to spawn? Idk. Anyways, I think that getting Kh more consistent should definitely be a priority, and there’s a few ways to do that (crushed coral, alkaline buffer, and baking soda.)

I think ultimately a lot of different stress factors were tacked on between pH swings, possible ammonia swings, medications, possible disease, etc. I don’t think it was any one thing, but a combo. 
 

Stuff like this can be really disheartening at times, but what gets me through it is remembering that everything (good and bad) is a learning experience, and it’s what we take away from the situation that is what’s important. 
 

I hope this helped, and I’m sorry for your loss of your Salvini

[Sharkie]

Used Paracleanse on a koi tank at work (had visible external parasites and suspected internal parasites). Next day, the tank was very cloudy and ammonia was at 1ppm. For three days now, I have been doing 50% water changes. Ammonia is still at 1ppm. Two koi died.

I have them in another tank for now, but I am not sure what to do tomorrow. Maybe a 75% water change and large ammonia filter pads? We'll see how it goes.