Improving the hobby

[Nik_n]

I was wondering what could be done to keep more people in the hobby long term. I remember @Cory saying, on one of the livestreams that something like 95% leaves the hobby within the first year (not sure on the exact stats). It seems to me that the information needed to be successful is wieldy available and quit easy to understand. What do you think its missing from the hobby? 

[reefhugger]

Just a guess here, but the hobby does require consistent attention. It is more complicated than putting fish in a tank of water and throwing in a bit of food.  I can see people becoming disenchanted when the realities of tank maintenance become apparent.  Water changes, chemistry, algae, animal compatibility, diet, etc.  I doubt  many folks wandering into Petco and seeing the pretty fish understand the responsibility ahead.  And the amount of time it takes.  

The internet is a fantastic resource for information, but also a treacherous one.  Lots of excellent info out there.  Lots of really bad info as well. 

  My guess is that a large portion of the 95% are folks who come into the hobby without realizing the amount of time and energy it takes.  I can see how anyone with job, child, family, pet etc., responsibilities already has to withdraw.  

Its an interesting question.  

[Pepere]

On 7/25/2024 at 4:59 AM, reefhugger said:

The internet is a fantastic resource for information, but also a treacherous one.  Lots of excellent info out there.  Lots of really bad info as well. 

Oh my goodness, isnt that the truth!

so many myths passed on as facts, and then there are youtube presenters who argue out of both sides of their mouth.. undergravel filters are the worst filter out there in one video, and then another video from same presenter stating they are old school filters and the best thing ever….  
 

Now presumably one of these videos was made and released first.  You think if the presenter changed his mind about the issue he would either remove the video made previously or at least reference it and how and why he changed his mind…

Then I saw him trash box filters in one video and praise them in another…

I have taken to viewing youtube fish videos more as entertainment than education…

Edited July 25 by Pepere

[mynameisnobody]

I think YouTube could be an end all be all resource, however I believe it does way more bad than good. Experience is the most important lesson we get.

[face]

Fish not surviving is imo the biggest reason people leave there’s lots of reasons for this I think a big one is the extreme prevalence of disease people can’t really deal with most and don’t want to go through it again and a quotient tank isn’t really viable for most people so they just quit 

[Tony s]

You have the obvious things. Like making accurate methods for cycling known before tank or fish purchase. That info is out there, but you still have places trying to sell tanks and fish the same day. Showing people how to properly clean tanks.

unfortunately, things like YouTube are going to be the way that people learn. For better or worse. The problem becomes how to eliminate the garbage. How to eliminate the junk ai generated information. We’re getting to the point people can’t really tell fact from fiction anymore. Even in video. It leaves people doing whatever they want and justifying it. Things like Facebook only make it worse. It groups like minded people together so they only learn from the same people. Differing points of view are not heard.

 

you’re also fighting with human nature. When things get difficult, whether it’s disease, die offs, maintenance. People tend to stop. Especially today, when people spend an incredible time on their screens and everything is easy and on-demand. Finding people who can stick to anything is next to impossible. Finding good workers is almost impossible. The only way to combat this is by making things as easy as possible for them. I cringe whenever I see people talk about chasing their parameters. You just know they won’t be in it for long that way.

[Biotope Biologist]

I believe Cory also says in one of his videos that if a friend already in the hobby urges another to buy their first tank they are much more likely to succeed and stay in the hobby.

 

I for one can say as an ingrained aquarist that my passion towards my tanks definitely ebbs and flows and sometimes it does feel more like a chore maintaining them all the time.

 

Something that has helped me in fish tanks and just general life stuff is SLOW DOWN. Take time to watch the grass grow so to speak. Take time to enjoy the little things. Take time to watch your fish and enjoy their little quirks.

 

There is a way to engage newcomers and I have seen 1st hand the staff at ACO tackle this topic well. You can’t overwhelm or be too succinct with info, it’s a delicate balance. I remember working at a chain petstore how hard it was to keep a child engaged as you spoke with their parents about the commitment or speaking to people and redirecting their passion towards one fish to another. 

[Shiba]

On 7/25/2024 at 8:38 AM, Tony s said:

.How to eliminate the junk ai generated information.

As a blogger who makes a conscientious effort to avoid AI in everything I do, I can really relate to this.

Many bloggers who don't care about writing love to use AI like it's the end all be all and the one thing to success. I'm not going to get into an argument about Artificial Intelligence (I have things to do y'know) but I do feel like it really messes with beginners and experts alike. So many websites out there that I'm beginning to wonder if they're even legit now. Their YouTube videos are essentially images (sometimes AI generated) and text with a bot talking. Really suspicious, aye? I remember one time I saw a preview for a Kulhi Loach care guide. An image that was shown was this weird dragon-like creature with arms and a tail like a fish and huge eyes. CLEARLY AI generated. It's really frustrating yet so sad at the same time to me, if I were to be truly honest.

I'm sorry, but I can't trust a blogger who doesn't even care enough to spend a day to write their own articles.

 

[NOLANANO]

On 7/25/2024 at 8:55 AM, Biotope Biologist said:

if a friend already in the hobby urges another to buy their first tank they are much more likely to succeed and stay in the hobby.

I have a buddy that I gave a 29G tank to and I have been helping him the last 6 months or so.  I took him to a fish trade show and he bought glow fish (yuck lol). But I had to remind myself that everyone likes different aspects of the hobby and if gene manipulated highlighters is what he wants in his tank then that's ok but I digress. My point is that he probably would be out of the hobby already (if he got into it at all) if he didn't have me there as a resource.

Like others have said, the internet does have all the answers but most don't do the research.  I don't think he has ever really looked anything up and just asks me the questions and mostly listens to my guidance.

As for why most get out of the hobby its because they either don't do the research and then disaster hits or they do everything correctly and then get bored. 

[Tanked]

On 7/24/2024 at 11:29 PM, Nik_n said:

I was wondering what could be done to keep more people in the hobby long term. I remember @Cory saying, on one of the livestreams that something like 95% leaves the hobby within the first year (not sure on the exact stats). It seems to me that the information needed to be successful is wieldy available and quit easy to understand. What do you think its missing from the hobby? 

The only thing missing from the hobby is that magical $50.00 device that precisely monitors absolutely everything, identifies any issues, and tells you exactly how to fix them.

I've often said that in general, the hobby doesn't have a lot of 'absolutes'.  The hobby and the lives of the fishkeepers is fluid, no pun intended.  Sometimes they do not think it through ahead of time, and sometimes life gets in the way.  

[Tlindsey]

Improving the hobby will continue to difficult to do. Various reasons some don't do research. Others treat fish as ornaments and not living creatures. Big box chain stores don't train their aquatic department employees so some are doomed from the start. Some are lazy and won't do their own research prior to setting up a aquarium. Also like stated some bad fishkeeping videos. Tbh I personally lost lot's of fish due to lack of resources no internet but got better when magazines like Tropical Fish Hobbyist appeared in lfs's. I started to get better and kept some hard to keep fish Marbled Catshark's, and the Seahorse. 

[johnnyxxl]

On 7/25/2024 at 7:03 AM, Pepere said:

Oh my goodness, isnt that the truth!

so many myths passed on as facts, and then there are youtube presenters who argue out of both sides of their mouth.. undergravel filters are the worst filter out there in one video, and then another video from same presenter stating they are old school filters and the best thing ever….  
 

Now presumably one of these videos was made and released first.  You think if the presenter changed his mind about the issue he would either remove the video made previously or at least reference it and how and why he changed his mind…

Then I saw him trash box filters in one video and praise them in another…

I have taken to viewing youtube fish videos more as entertainment than education…

If you are are talking about Bentley he does that as a these are the two sides of the argument not that one is right or wrong with his debate.  

[AdamS]

This is a hard one.  I think two things need to be developed in order to keep more new fish keepers in the hobby. The first thing that could be changed to keep more new people in the hobby would be to come up with a true instant cycle that new comers could use to immediately create a livable environment for any fish they bought with the aquarium. 

Second, find a way to minimize the amount of time it takes to maintain or take care of fish (water changes).  The more time someone has to work at a hobby instead of enjoy it lowers the perceived value they get from the hobby.  Things like a python helps but more needs to be done. 

[Jeff]

On 7/25/2024 at 5:26 PM, AdamS said:

The first thing that could be changed to keep more new people in the hobby would be to come up with a true instant cycle that new comers could use to immediately create a livable environment for any fish they bought with the aquarium. 

 

Because you need patience to be successful in this hobby; do you think this would give new hobbyists the wrong impression of it? 
 

I understand your point; I do. It would make people feel happier from the start. But, I worry that would give people false hope

[mynameisnobody]

@AdamS what you’ve described isn’t the hobby I love. Hypothetically, if there was a cycle in a bottle, would we next start working on instant full grown plants/fish? This hobby requires research, trial and error, and most importantly, patience. Those that aren’t willing to put in the time and effort then will inevitably not be apart of the hobby. Instant gratification almost always leads you worse off than when you started. 

[AdamS]

I can understand that the struggle was what kept you interested in the hobby. But I don’t think that will keep the majority of the new fish keepers in the hobby, quite the opposite.  Additional I feel that new fish keepers can fall in love with the hobby even if they don’t have to go through the work you did. Especially if the work is what is causing so many fish keepers to leave. 

[mynameisnobody]

@AdamS but you’re not describing the hobby. If people can’t fall in love with the hobby because of the effort involved, then we don’t need those people in the hobby. When caring for a living being, easy should not be your go to option. What’s best for the animal should always come first. Will the effort to remedy a sick fish be too much for some? Probably so. The person you’re describing is not as asset to the hobby. Also, you can further the hobby by exposing more people to aquariums in their daily life. If more people encountered seriously kept aquariums as a norm, the hobby would explode. Unfortunately, most people’s ideas of the hobby is what they see at a big box store. 

[NOLANANO]

On 7/26/2024 at 9:13 AM, mynameisnobody said:

you’re not describing the hobby. If people can’t fall in love with the hobby because of the effort involved, then we don’t need those people in the hobby.

1) I would say that everyone's hobby is different. One person may love planted tanks with nano fish while another may like bare bottom tanks with large fish. So if one person would enjoy watching and feeding the fish but doesn't own a tank because they dislike other aspects of the hobby then I don't see an issue with creating a solution so long as it isn't detrimental to the fish.  Years ago they didn't have dechlorinators and would leave water out over night to dechlorinate. Do you think those hobbiest were upset because someone invented a product that would instantly dechlorinate the water? I'm sure there were purists that hated adding chemicals but that advancement made the hobby more accessible to many more people.

2) We need all the people in the hobby we can get. The only way fish become more available and cheaper is if there is a demand for them. The only way to create a demand is to grow the hobby.

I do understand where you are coming from as far as what the hobby means to you but I don't think creating solutions to make the hobby more accessible and easier for others is a bad thing. Now I am not sure if what Adam has suggested is feasible but if it were, it would be a net positive.

[mynameisnobody]

@NOLANANO I respectfully disagree with you 

[NOLANANO]

Fair enough

[Odd Duck]

I think a quicker way to cycle a tank is a great idea.  More quickly cycling a tank lets people enjoy it quicker and would certainly lead to fewer fish deaths.  Nobody wants their newly purchased fish to die.  Nobody wants fish to die at all.  Cycling quicker is definitely a need.  Would it keep people in the hobby longer?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  Valid points already made either way.  But it would be more likely to start people and fish off on the right foot.  It’s so very discouraging to have fish pass right after getting them that it can’t possibly help the hobby or hobbyist when a tank takes weeks and weeks to cycle.

Way back, we used to start with just a few small fish for a week or so, then a few more for another week or so, etc.  Or we might blind feed for a couple weeks before adding fish.  But we were mostly getting reasonably solid advice from experienced mom and pop fish stores because the five and dime stores that also sold fish from just 6 or 8 tanks didn’t have anybody giving advice, they only netted and bagged the fish, nothing else.  There was no such thing as a big box store that sold fish with minimally trained or inexperienced employees that may or may not have any actual fishkeeping experience.  Most specialty fish stores are going to give at least decent advice (with some exceptions), and many (but not all) general pet stores are going to be less consistent with the quality of their fish advice.

It would be terrific if we could trust every fish YouTuber’s advice but that just isn’t the case.  Some give outdated advice or advice that contradicts available scientific evidence.  Unfortunately, there isn’t one single answer for an ideal information source since most fish people have more experience in certain areas and less in others.  I would never presume to give advice on African cichlids, for instance, since I’ve never had any in all my years of fishkeeping.  But I can drone on well beyond most people’s tolerance levels about other species that I love.  I warn my coworkers that ask for pics of my fish tanks that they’re opening a can of worms, are you still sure you want pics?  😆  Oddly enough, they rarely ask for tank pics a second time.  I don’t know why.  😂 🤣 

If everybody started because of an experienced friend in the hobby I think it would make a big difference.  It’s how I started way back when and she also took me to the mom and pop basement store where I got good advice and found books and magazines about the hobby.  WE can be that experienced friend for each other.  WE are the village that it takes to raise a good fishkeeper and grow the hobby!

[mynameisnobody]

Excellent points. The only thing that sticks out in all of this is, explain the popularity of the hobby in Europe and Asia? It’s a part of their social structure. As far as I know, they also do not have magic in a bottle, yet the hobby excels there.