Grace's Garden - A RTBS Planted Tank

[Odd Duck]

For potential protozoal issues, metronidazole gets a lot of them (not all) but with at least a moderate dose of salt (1 tablespoon per 5 gallons to save most of your plants) you’re going to get most, especially the ones that cause erosive skin lesions (as opposed to Ich).  Malachite green (Ich-X is malachite green plus formalin) will obviously get Ich but is harsher on the fish and plants.

Once erosive skin lesions start, antibiotics can be very helpful since those often get secondary bacterial infections along with the parasitic infection.

High dose salt will help clear the protozoans quicker but more likely to wipe out plants.

As far as praziquantal alone vs. Paracleanse, I typically reach for Prazi alone when deworming for intestinal parasites, but erosive skin lesions make me reach for metronidazole (along with the minocycline in Maracyn-2 OR kanamycin).  So if you’re worried about both, reach for the combo in Paracleanse.  I am more likely to pick single meds (but might use more than one at a time just not usually in the prepared combos available) so I can adjust the dose of one or the other as needed, if needed.

The prepared combos are more about broader spectrum treatment since the average fishkeeper doesn’t have any real idea what they’re dealing with in sick fish.  I usually have some idea from looking at lesions, symptoms, or behavior and choose a more focused treatment - a dewormer vs. skin infection for instance.  I use both levamisole and praziquantal on initial deworming for my pea puffers that I was pretty sure were wild caught.  But I only repeated levamisole later since tapeworms were much less likely to recur once cleared compared to the nematode species that could come in with the blackworms that were part of their feedings.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 5/4/2024 at 10:47 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Bacterial cysts on the mouth

My fellow hobbyist friend randomly asked if I had heard of a disease affecting tetras where a large cyst appears on the mouth. I mentioned the issue you were having but that I wasn’t sure it was tetras, in your case. She didn’t remember the name of the illness but said it’s viral and that there isn’t a treatment for it. Mentioned it was affecting the fish farms as well? I wish we had more information..

On 4/29/2024 at 12:02 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

and I lost half of them due to my own unwillingness to let them suffer any further. 

This part of the hobby SUCKS. I had to do the same, twice this past month, for illnesses that were too far progressed that the fishes could not endure treatment. 😞  When I was a kid we would flush ill or dead fish. It was easier somehow, as the water whisked them away and out of sight.. but now we have more resources and know the chlorine is painful for the fish and we don’t want the bad things in our water…

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/11/2024 at 5:16 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

On 5/4/2024 at 7:47 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Bacterial cysts on the mouth

My fellow hobbyist friend randomly asked if I had heard of a disease affecting tetras where a large cyst appears on the mouth. I mentioned the issue you were having but that I wasn’t sure it was tetras, in your case. She didn’t remember the name of the illness but said it’s viral and that there isn’t a treatment for it. Mentioned it was affecting the fish farms as well? I wish we had more information..

Salt + polyguard worked for me. Nitrofuri.... Was what I saw recommended if kanaplex hadn't worked (bacterial cysts)

Colu, I believe, had mentioned the name of the actual virus. 

(Edit 2: Lymphocystis )

Edited May 11 by nabokovfan87

[nabokovfan87]

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/FA181

[nabokovfan87]

Metroplex on the way. I am still seeing "slime" on the body and it reminds me of epi or velvet. Not sure how else to describe it.  The severe, quick moving fin rot is absolutely concerning.

Water changes today, more water changes tomorrow. More meds tomorrow.

@Odd Duckis it safe to do a second dose of prazi with metro or should I just stick with doing only the metro+salt and then go back to prazi if it makes sense to do so. (One dose done 7-10 days ago)

[nabokovfan87]

[Odd Duck]

On 5/11/2024 at 10:57 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Metroplex on the way. I am still seeing "slime" on the body and it reminds me of epi or velvet. Not sure how else to describe it.  The severe, quick moving fin rot is absolutely concerning.

Water changes today, more water changes tomorrow. More meds tomorrow.

@Odd Duckis it safe to do a second dose of prazi with metro or should I just stick with doing only the metro+salt and then go back to prazi if it makes sense to do so. (One dose done 7-10 days ago)

Yes, you can do praziquantal and metronidazole together. Just don’t double up on either by using Paraguard with either one. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/11/2024 at 7:40 PM, Odd Duck said:

Yes, you can do praziquantal and metronidazole together. Just don’t double up on either by using Paraguard with either one. 

Last dose of prazi done (2 total),  1 round of kanaplex done, finishing up round 1 of metroplex.  I plan to stop meds at that point and monitor again, focus on a lot of water changes.

I lost one oto yesterday sometime, woke up to it dead and very pale/white/unrecognizable.  I found my last one in there at the bottom and I don't expect it to make it through the night.  So far I've lost 3 otos (all of them), a few amanos, a ton of plants, 7-9 corydoras, and I expect one corydoras I have in QT to not recover at this point.  It has no barbels and its swimming is labored from whatever is going on.

I need to remove the salt that's been in the tank for an extended period of time at this point and that will help the fish to really start recovering.  One question I did have about Kanaplex / Metroplex is regarding water changes.  Hikari, API, and Fritz make it very clear on when water changes are allowed with treatment of meds, but Seachem is extremely poor about information on their labels.  The dose on the metroplex vial says "1-2 scoops", but no indication of using one dose or the other.  Only until emailing in and asking "what gives?" did they mention sensitive species.  Each med often repeats how it is difficult to overdose the meds, adding to the confusion.

Anyways, @Odd Duck and @Colu with regards to something like metroplex and kanaplex.... I take the mindset that the med needs to "build up" in the water over time.  This is why it is multple doses in a short time period.  With regards to this logic when are water changes acceptable, especially when you're talking weeks of treatment windows.

Kanaplex, 3 doses is one treatment, so I do my water changes after 3 doses and give a break to the tank.  Follow-up with a second course if need be.

Metroplex, I do not know when is viable, but the label says treat for 2-3 weeks with 1-2 scoops.  Everything is vague and I don't speak seachem science braille.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

So sorry for your losses @nabokovfan87. Hope things improve.

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/21/2024 at 7:22 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

So sorry for your losses @nabokovfan87. Hope things improve.

I appreciate it. Honestly I'm just at a loss.

I couldn't find the oto when I check tonight, found another corydoras with half a tail missing (fin rot) and moved it to the QT tank.

 

[Colu]

With kanaplex I do a large water change before treating then  after full course of treatment which is  3 dose over 6 days then I do a large water on day 7 metroplex  if your dosing the tank over an extended period of time I would just do regular testing and do   water changes as needed and add back in the appropriate medication to keep it  at a therapeutic level for instance if you did a 10 gallon water change I would put 1 scoop of metroplex back in the dosing instructions depend on how severe the  protozoa or anaerobic bacterial infections is two scoops I  would use for more advanced infection @nabokovfan87

Edited May 23 by Colu

[Odd Duck]

If you are still having losses and another fish with that much tail missing I would strongly recommend getting Maracyn-2 going in the food if possible, if anybody isn’t eating put it in the water. Maracyn-2 is absorbed internally and if the fin rot is that deep into tissue you need it to be absorbed internally.

Metronidazole is absorbed internally but has a limited anti-microbial spectrum. works great for GI stuff, not so good for deep tissue infections or skin infections unless there’s a parasite component that needs addressed.  Kanaplex has great spectrum but is not absorbed internally to any significant degree so it should always go in the water.

I’m now thinking this is much more likely to be bacterial vs. Hexamita so I would get the Maracyn-2 going ASAP.

[nabokovfan87]

Before

 

After

Edited May 22 by nabokovfan87

[Colu]

He's a medicated food recipe for maracyn2 @nabokovfan87

[nabokovfan87]

Water changes need to happen on every tank, but my focus will have to be on the tanks that had meds.  The goal is to get that done and toss in some IALs that were generously gifted to me by @Chick-In-Of-TheSea in hopes of helping with all of these issues that I've been having.

The sword plant is looking really beat up and the plecos have been out and about trying to graze on some of the plants that have been dying off.  I don't see much of the bulb plants around anymore and I'm hoping I do.  One bulb rotted, I have 3 more in there I need to locate.  1 of them did look fine, but it needs to anchor itself and start to grow.  I keep it in the front right corner, but it's where the corydoras eat.  I imagine the kids think it's a playtime ball or something because it moves around daily.

I did end up losing my final otocinclus.  This one did show some similar issues to what I have seen on the black corydoras.  Again, weird, to have a disease like this targeting what amounts to armored catfish with external symptoms.

I'll try to keep an eye out on this thread and update accordingly.  Right now I am trying to decide what happens with the corydoras I've moved into the 20L tank for specialized care, white clouds, and what is next.  Right now it's purely about water changes and monitoring the situation.

Pricing out meds for maracyn 2, it's about $80 before shipping to treat the tank once.  Dosing it in the food would require less medications, but I also have zero assurance that the fish in question will eat the medicated food.  It's a bit of a quandary and right now I just really need to see what is going on with the fish again.

Fresh water, ensure they are eating foods, and ensure that they don't have any environmental triggers causing stress.  That airstone will remain in the tank permanently as I believe it is necessary.

[nabokovfan87]

When you finish the small tank, but then have to work on the big tank....



Water changes done!

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Wow. I'm sorry you're going through this. What a tough run. I'll be crossing fingers for you too. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

How are things going @nabokovfan87?  Hopefully fish health pretty stable? What type of substrate is in the 75 now? Also how are the bulb plants? Mine were looking clearish and had some algae, so I RR them and now I have new growth. I trimmed the old stuff off.

 

(things are stirred up by water change)

Edited June 1 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[nabokovfan87]

Doing more research tonight.  For clarity, this is what I thought I had narrowed the symptoms down to given all of the things I've tried.  I was hoping that the final dose of meds would've handled this. 

Research continues...  I will need to get a video of the severely ill corydoras trying to swim to give an idea of "late stages" of the disease.

Note: this is from a rainbowfish book.  Not sure how prevalent these things can be on armored catfish / corydoras / otocinclus, but here we are.



Edit:
Option 2: Fungal Finrot (yep, that's a thing)
Option 3: Columnaris

I've treated for all of these at least twice. The main issue is often poor quality environment, so I am going to keep focusing there.  I may have some help/assistance getting meds and I'll get my hands on some focus + garlic whatever.  We'll see how they do and what happens.

Edited June 2 by nabokovfan87

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/1/2024 at 10:03 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

How are things going @nabokovfan87?  Hopefully fish health pretty stable? What type of substrate is in the 75 now? Also how are the bulb plants? Mine were looking clearish and had some algae, so I RR them and now I have new growth. I trimmed the old stuff off.

I only found one, I didn't look for the others. The substrate is controsoil.  The fish health is just a bit weird.... It seems like everything is fine for weeks and then all of a sudden one or two fish might be doing very poorly and I feel like I'm starting at square 1 again. I've covered everything I can seemingly thing of apart from the meds mentioned by OD/Colu above. I will spend some time watching the fish today. They seem to be active, behavior is normal, but I did see one of the very young corydoras that wasn't doing well. I still have 3 in my 20Long tank being monitored and 2 of those are likely beyond the point of a full recovery.

[nabokovfan87]

Ok so! A couple things.

 

Bulb!  It's fiiiiine, but just has always been in this state since about day 1.  It's my obi-wan Kenobi plant. 😂. I will dig around in the back of the tank when I trim and my hands are healed up.

In terms of all of the corydoras, one of the first signs is clamped fins. Just general "I don't feel so good" body language.

I have a picture of this corydoras in a few minutes we can see him better.

This is Riddick.  She has been through EVERYTHING and she lives in the 20L that every single sick corydoras has been through. She is in there with the white clouds as well. The debris on the bottom is plants, not food and I just cleaned the tank a few days prior. It'll get cleaned again today.

She looks really, really good today.

 

The other ones in her tank do not. I do not expect this fish to make it through the day. Unfortunately. I also took a video of the other one trying to function.

 

 

Back to the main tank, the two smaller corydoras.

Again, they visually just look a bit unhappy. Tank will get cleaned, I'll probably clean the filter again today just to do so. The weird bend on the tail in the first one is not a deformity, when I fed the fish she was fine. It was just a weird moment and definitely freaked me out seeing her contorted like that.

If the video sparks any indications please feel free to share. I think this is legitimate some mix of multiple diseases and it's very likely ones that I've treated for.  My focus right now is to give their body a break from the chemicals and harshness and try to let them recover. In a week I will revisit this choice and potentially start one last round of food based bacterial meds as recommended above.

[nabokovfan87]

This is the one that's been struggling. It was out front and I was able to get a photo.  Dorsal is practically gone, tail is also severely damaged, and barbels are near gone.

[nabokovfan87]

Wave 3, 4, or 5 or losses and were back to almost daily losses again. 

I am on day 3 of feeding medicated food and I'm thankful so much to @Chick-In-Of-TheSeafor helping me get to that point.  At this point the disease being treated is that internal infection and we're running through bacterial meds. As @Odd Ducka and @Colu had advised I am using the full recipe, maracyn 2 right now.  I have kanaplex and metroplex I can utilize as well if need be.

There's two main deaths I want to talk about and I have a third one in tow that we can discuss as well.

This disease is a very, very, very difficult puzzle.

I had struggled with the fin deterioration and I took a photo showing the fins one on of the fish regrowing.  The rot had been so severe that regrowing the fins wasn't viable and there was no way that fish would be able to recover. In a span of about 48 hours the dorsal and tail were gone. Starting from essentially "the floor" of the tank and working it's way upwards.  The fish could not swim properly (basically at all) and was shuffling around the tank when stressed. I opted to euthanize this one as I have been forced to do with several of these fish and no longer wanting them to suffer.

Following this above description, we have another fish that I was confusing this fish with. This particular large adult fish (about 1.5-2 years old) is laying up at the top of the tank in floating stems with its nose practically at the surface and it's nearly vertical. If you didn't know you would think it was watching oarfish videos all day.  The same rot, same deterioration, but it's currently less severe. It is progressing and I'm monitoring it, but based on behavior alone I do not believe this fish will survive.

I've lost two other fish this week. The first I thought was a "classic" example of the external slime, fungus, or protozoans that I've been seeing.  I think many of us have seen a dead fish in the tank and it's started deteriorating and some external fungus takes hold. It basically looked like that but I would describe it more as Ice crystalizing on the surface and growing fronds like a snowflake or something. It has a defined shape and structure and you can see the progress from day 1 where it's just a small whiteness on the fish to death where it's fully engulfed the body cavity.  This fish had ZERO rot and only had the external issues amongst whatever internal issues.

The next fish I lost about 24 hours later was not allowed to eat or feed on the body, I am very vigilant about removing them because I assume that's the biggest way this disease is spread (via contact or ingestion).  The fish looked perfectly healthy, but could not function or swim in any capacity at all. The fish was actually swimming upside down and couldn't regulate which way was up.  It has been 2 days of this before I euthanized that fish in particular. It was going to die within hours and breathing had slowed dramatically over that 48 hour period.  All of the issues seemed to be internal, similar to our buddy that hanging out in the floating plants. Which again, makes me question everything.

It doesn't make sense to do the rundown of all of the meds used and all of the issues that I am seeing, but I hope that sharing those descriptions gives a good idea of what I'm going through and trying to work against.

My question.....

I am feeding this medicated food for at least 2-3 weeks. This is going in the 75G as well as the holding tank for the sicker fish, my 20Long.

They have been eating the food.... THANKFULLY.

Odd_Duck, Colu, if we get through this treatment what is the proper procedure for using the next medication. Should I even try kanaplex in food or MetroPlex at this point considering that the tanks have been treated.  Right now, nothing seems to be helping.... Or reinfection is constantly happening when one of the sicker fish passes on.

My gut tells me to finish the treatment with Maracyn 2, give them 1-2 weeks off and then proceed with kanaplex to purely try and stop this fin rot.  I replaced the felts in my air stone so that the diffusion is improved and I have the air and everything working very well in both tanks. Beyond that I'm not sure there are any further steps I can take to fight this.

[Colu]

On 6/21/2024 at 6:43 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Wave 3, 4, or 5 or losses and were back to almost daily losses again. 

I am on day 3 of feeding medicated food and I'm thankful so much to @Chick-In-Of-TheSeafor helping me get to that point.  At this point the disease being treated is that internal infection and we're running through bacterial meds. As @Odd Ducka and @Colu had advised I am using the full recipe, maracyn 2 right now.  I have kanaplex and metroplex I can utilize as well if need be.

There's two main deaths I want to talk about and I have a third one in tow that we can discuss as well.

This disease is a very, very, very difficult puzzle.

I had struggled with the fin deterioration and I took a photo showing the fins one on of the fish regrowing.  The rot had been so severe that regrowing the fins wasn't viable and there was no way that fish would be able to recover. In a span of about 48 hours the dorsal and tail were gone. Starting from essentially "the floor" of the tank and working it's way upwards.  The fish could not swim properly (basically at all) and was shuffling around the tank when stressed. I opted to euthanize this one as I have been forced to do with several of these fish and no longer wanting them to suffer.

Following this above description, we have another fish that I was confusing this fish with. This particular large adult fish (about 1.5-2 years old) is laying up at the top of the tank in floating stems with its nose practically at the surface and it's nearly vertical. If you didn't know you would think it was watching oarfish videos all day.  The same rot, same deterioration, but it's currently less severe. It is progressing and I'm monitoring it, but based on behavior alone I do not believe this fish will survive.

I've lost two other fish this week. The first I thought was a "classic" example of the external slime, fungus, or protozoans that I've been seeing.  I think many of us have seen a dead fish in the tank and it's started deteriorating and some external fungus takes hold. It basically looked like that but I would describe it more as Ice crystalizing on the surface and growing fronds like a snowflake or something. It has a defined shape and structure and you can see the progress from day 1 where it's just a small whiteness on the fish to death where it's fully engulfed the body cavity.  This fish had ZERO rot and only had the external issues amongst whatever internal issues.

The next fish I lost about 24 hours later was not allowed to eat or feed on the body, I am very vigilant about removing them because I assume that's the biggest way this disease is spread (via contact or ingestion).  The fish looked perfectly healthy, but could not function or swim in any capacity at all. The fish was actually swimming upside down and couldn't regulate which way was up.  It has been 2 days of this before I euthanized that fish in particular. It was going to die within hours and breathing had slowed dramatically over that 48 hour period.  All of the issues seemed to be internal, similar to our buddy that hanging out in the floating plants. Which again, makes me question everything.

It doesn't make sense to do the rundown of all of the meds used and all of the issues that I am seeing, but I hope that sharing those descriptions gives a good idea of what I'm going through and trying to work against.

My question.....

I am feeding this medicated food for at least 2-3 weeks. This is going in the 75G as well as the holding tank for the sicker fish, my 20Long.

They have been eating the food.... THANKFULLY.

Odd_Duck, Colu, if we get through this treatment what is the proper procedure for using the next medication. Should I even try kanaplex in food or MetroPlex at this point considering that the tanks have been treated.  Right now, nothing seems to be helping.... Or reinfection is constantly happening when one of the sicker fish passes on.

My gut tells me to finish the treatment with Maracyn 2, give them 1-2 weeks off and then proceed with kanaplex to purely try and stop this fin rot.  I replaced the felts in my air stone so that the diffusion is improved and I have the air and everything working very well in both tanks. Beyond that I'm not sure there are any further steps I can take to fight this.

What I would do is finish the maracyn2 you can also add a scoop of metroplex to the maracyn2 food recipe for a more broad spectrum treatment I wouldn't feed kanaplex in food as very little of the medication is adsorbed by the intestinal tract so not a lot of medication makes into the blood stream after the course of maracyn2 and metroplex if your still having issues you could do a course of kanaplex and jungal fungus clear fizz tabs containing nitrofurazone following this treatment plan for more severe bacterial infections or possible treatment using ciprofloxacin 500mg @Odd Duckmight have more information on the effectiveness of ciprofloxacin not a treatment I commonly recommend