Ruptured (?) Oto

[aquatoid]

I just noticed something odd on the largest (a bit shy of 4 cm or 1,5 in long) of my otos, almost like a rupture behind the stomach area. The fish is behaving seemingly normally, but something is clearly wrong. It is a chubby oto, always on time for dinner, and it's also one of my oldest, a couple of years old. I did initially have issues with some otos dying off after I got them, but this one had no problems. In general I noticed improved survival chances of new otos when I started giving them Repashy super green and soilent green in addition to what they find naturally in the tank. 

I noticed this on the 3rd day of treating the tank with Esha Exit for chilodonella that was diagnosed on one of my silvertip tetras, but presumably all the tank has it.

Looking at the photos there might seem to be a bit of pineconing of the scale, but I can't really tell from looking at the fish with naked eye, so the potato quality of the photo might be playing tricks there. Could otos burst from eating too much? Could this be reaction to medication or the parasites?

Also, what to do to give the little guy the best chance to survive and recover from this? 

As an added note, I have a sort of a hanging food platform where I put the Repashy foods for the otos, otherwise they would be swarmed by malaysian trumpet snails in seconds. Sometimes I've seen my hoplo cats visiting the platform to hoover up whatever they can. And my male hoplo can sometimes be a bit feisty, but usually this only is with the females of the same species. But the oto might have been collateral damage to his visit too. Pure speculation here, but the otos aren't the brightest of fish sometimes, they freeze rather than run away.

• pH                            6,6-6,8
• Nitrates                    25
• Hardness                  5
• Nitrite                       0
• Ammonia                 0
• KH/Buffer                 3
• Water Temperature  24-26 C, 75-79 F

Edited February 20, 2023 by aquatoid
Added info on the hoplo cat.

[Guppysnail]

@xXInkedPhoenixX @Odd Duck

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Sounds painful but I can't really see what's going on with the little one by this picture. The best thing I've usually done for a single individual is to get them into isolation so I can monitor them more closely. Usually we have to look at what we've recently done with the tank, meds or another fish could play a factor as you mentioned. If it's an open wound my consern would be secondary infections- which is why I isolate. I can keep the water super clean and medicate the fish separately- with an open wound I'd use an anti-bacterial but anti-fungals also have to be considered if it goes that direction. If you could get better pictures that would be very helpful here, I know they're hard to get with Otos. 

[Odd Duck]

Agree with @xXInkedPhoenixX.  I know it can be very challenging but we need better pictures to see what’s happened.  Maybe a video if you can so,our brains can put together better images.  It does look like a wound that is full thickness of the body wall with very high risk of systemic infection and death.  I would plan to isolate, partially because if I’m right, the slightest additional impact or injury could send intestines out of the body so be incredibly gently catching to isolate this kiddo.

I would absolutely start antibiotics in this case with metronidazole or minocycline at the top of my list because ingestion would be a good way to get them into the fish vs just in the water.  @Coluhas good recipes for putting the meds in food and you’ll need to put it in the Repashy.  I would also do aquarium salt at 1 tablespoon (30 grams) per 5 gallons to start.  Dose only for the volume of replacement water at water changes.

You’ll need to do frequent water changes to keep the water absolutely pristine or there’s virtually zero chance of recovery.  There is very high risk of death if the body wall is open, so be braced for the worst outcome.  That doesn’t mean you have to give up, but be mindful of quality of life if things take a turn for the worse.  You need to be ready to give your fish a peaceful end if things don’t show improvement or take a turn for the worse at any time.

Pic is a stolen copy of @Colu’s recipe for minocycline in the food (Maracyn-2).  I know there’s a recipe floating around for metronidazole, too.  You don’t need to do both.  Below is my recommendation for euthanasia using clove oil.  There is not enough alcohol once dispersed into the water to cause issues.  Some will put the fish into a small container with tank water, then slowly add the clove oil solution.  Or mix the water solution at double or triple strength and slowly add it to the container so it takes effect more gradually.  Some say it appears a more peaceful way to pass when added gradually.

If you can get propofol from a veterinarian (you would only need 1 ml) you can gradually add that to a cup of tank water with the fish in it (plenty of water for an oto).  Add over 3 to 5 minutes, and they will very peacefully pass.  Some veterinarians will not be comfortable sending you home with propofol, even with no needle on the syringe, but explaining what you need it for may convince them.  If they don’t want to send it, ask if you can bring the fish in for euthanasia.  I usually follow up propofol with a small injection of euthanasia solution to be very certain they are fully gone.  They will likely charge for the euthanasia and there could be a huge range of prices for this service.

Euthanasia solution with clove oil:

For 100 mg/mL stock solution mix 1 part clove oil with 9 parts of 95% ethanol (Everclear, 190 proof), (in the USA, over-the-counter clove oil is ~1 g eugenol/ml clove oil).  Then mix to 40-120 mg/L bath - around 1 ml/L to make it simple.

Example: 0.1 mls clove oil into 0.9 mls Everclear (190 proof ethyl alcohol) = 1 ml stock solution to add to 1 liter of tank water (per quart is close enough).  For larger fish, 1 mls of clove oil into 9 mls alcohol for 10 liters of tank water (2.6 gallons).  For a 10 gallon tank, you will need 4 mls clove oil into 36 mls alcohol.

The alcohol is what lets the eugenol (the active ingredient) dissolve into the water.  Otherwise the clove oil just floats on the water surface and may not be effective.  Keep the fish in the clove oil mixture until at least 20 minutes past any gill movement, then remove the fish from the water, place in a plastic bag with as minimal air as possible, then freeze as quickly as possible for a full 24 hours or more before disposal.

[aquatoid]

On 2/21/2023 at 4:39 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

Sounds painful but I can't really see what's going on with the little one by this picture. The best thing I've usually done for a single individual is to get them into isolation so I can monitor them more closely. Usually we have to look at what we've recently done with the tank, meds or another fish could play a factor as you mentioned. If it's an open wound my consern would be secondary infections- which is why I isolate. I can keep the water super clean and medicate the fish separately- with an open wound I'd use an anti-bacterial but anti-fungals also have to be considered if it goes that direction. If you could get better pictures that would be very helpful here, I know they're hard to get with Otos. 

Problem is catching the fish to isolate it, the tank isn't super big, but the floorprint is abnormally large for the volume, 150cm x 70cm or 59in x 27,5in, with a ton of vegetation and rocks and driftwood. I will try though, and also will try to get some better photos if possible.

I have Esha 2000 available that I could use pre-emptively for the bacterial issues. According to the list on Esha's homepage the meds are safe to use together too.

[aquatoid]

On 2/21/2023 at 6:30 PM, Odd Duck said:

I would absolutely start antibiotics in this case with metronidazole or minocycline at the top of my list because ingestion would be a good way to get them into the fish vs just in the water.  @Coluhas good recipes for putting the meds in food and you’ll need to put it in the Repashy.  I would also do aquarium salt at 1 tablespoon (30 grams) per 5 gallons to start.  Dose only for the volume of replacement water at water changes.

I'll just quote this bit here, since the salt might be an issue due to other inhabitants in the tank. Unless I manage to isolate the fish of course. As I've understood corys and hoplo cats and kuhlii loaches (and other fish with no scales) don't really like salt that much. I have no idea on the levels though, so I can't tell whether the level suggested would be harmful to them.

[Odd Duck]

On 2/21/2023 at 10:35 AM, aquatoid said:

Problem is catching the fish to isolate it

Yes, definitely a high risk catch.  I would use a fairly big (as big as will be possible to maneuver in the tank - maybe 5”?), deep net, tuck one side tight against the wall of the tank in a corner, leaving only a fairly narrow gap on the open side and use my off hand to urge the fish into the net with my dominant hand running the net.  With an oto, you’re likely going to have to trap the fish against the glass first, then gently jiggle the net until the oto comes off the glass into the net.  Then lift quickly and transfer.  @Cory has a video of catching fish this way, let me see if I can find it.

 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

If you can isolate the fish, I have lots of Otos and they have done fine with salt where some sites are against it. I can't speak to your other fish because I've not kept them. As @Odd Duck said catch them gently as possible. I get that it will be hard (my Otos would be near impossible to get out of my 20g tall at this point). I've had success catching some by hand- if you have a shrimp net I would highly recommend using that because the messh is so tight they rarely get barbels/mouths caught and they tend to be more gentle- and in your case small so you can catch them in tighter spaces. 

[Odd Duck]

On 2/21/2023 at 10:42 AM, aquatoid said:

I'll just quote this bit here, since the salt might be an issue due to other inhabitants in the tank. Unless I manage to isolate the fish of course. As I've understood corys and hoplo cats and kuhlii loaches (and other fish with no scales) don't really like salt that much. I have no idea on the levels though, so I can't tell whether the level suggested would be harmful to them.

You are correct.  If you can’t isolate this fish to treat, I would recommend you go ahead and humanely euthanize.  I’m pretty sure I’m seeing intestine through that hole in the body wall.  If that oto gets jostled AT ALL, it will be extremely high risk for evisceration. You will not want to come home to your otos intestines trailing out of the hole in its body wall.  This level of salt is safe for otos.  @xXInkedPhoenixX and others have used higher than this level of salt in treatment of otos.

[aquatoid]

I have built a trap in order to not have to uproot the entire aquarium to catch one fish, that might be more harm to the rest of the inhabitants and the afflicted oto itself. I hope the repashy inside a soda bottle is enough to lure it in. 

The oto is visible, showing the top side so no photo opportunities have arisen, but it's hanging out in the protection of the massive amazon sword plant I have in the tank. Actually it's a double plant since it decided to replicate itself at some point. There is no way I can get any net near the oto while it is there.

Is it advisable to dose in Esha 2000 at this point to try to minimize risk of bacterial infection?

[Colu]

On 2/21/2023 at 4:30 PM, Odd Duck said:

there’s a recipe floating around for metronidazole,

 

[aquatoid]

On 2/21/2023 at 9:45 PM, Colu said:

 

I did some searches of MetroPlex and Focus and neither of these seem to be on stock or even listed at the best aquarium sources I am aware of in my city. Nor do they come up in searches for my country when doing a basic search.

For internal bacterial infections one of the sources recommended Sera Bactopur Direct, is this comparable? Even with that the availability is really iffy. Amazon.de won't even ship it to my country for some odd reason.

[Colu]

On 2/21/2023 at 8:06 PM, aquatoid said:

I did some searches of MetroPlex and Focus and neither of these seem to be on stock or even listed at the best aquarium sources I am aware of in my city. Nor do they come up in searches for my country when doing a basic search.

For internal bacterial infections one of the sources recommended Sera Bactopur Direct, is this comparable? Even with that the availability is really iffy. Amazon.de won't even ship it to my country for some odd reason.

Depending on what country you come from some antibiotic treatments won't be available what country are you based I might be able to find you an alternative treatment 

[aquatoid]

On 2/21/2023 at 11:26 PM, Colu said:

Depending on what country you come from some antibiotic treatments won't be available what country are you based I might be able to find you an alternative treatment 

I'm from Finland.

For some reason some items on Amazon.de are limited from being delivered here, despite EU supposedly being a unifying factor in legislation. Actually to that point, one of the shops here stated that import of Sera Bactopur Direct has been halted due to a EU directive... Some shops still seem to have some older stock left though.

https://www.sera.de/us/product/freshwater-aquarium/sera-baktopur-direct/

Edited February 21, 2023 by aquatoid
Added link to Sera Bactopur Direct

[nabokovfan87]

Are you talking about the black spot on the belly?  Is that just showing a gravid female?

[Colu]

Sera baktopur direct table active ingredient is nifurpirinol is a broad spectrum antibiotic treatment I would use this if you can get metronidazole or maracyn2 @aquatoid

Edited February 21, 2023 by Colu

[aquatoid]

On 2/21/2023 at 11:54 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Are you talking about the black spot on the belly?  Is that just showing a gravid female?

Yes, the black spot. The spot seemed recessed, as if there is a gash or a rupture. I will try to see if I can get a better look and a photo if the fish ever co-operates again. Would you mind elaborating on this gravidity theory? I know the photo is bad and can mislead, but how did that idea come to you?

On 2/21/2023 at 11:55 PM, Colu said:

Sera baktopur direct table active ingredient is nifurpirinol is a broad spectrum antibiotic treatment I would use this if you can get metronidazole or maracyn2 @aquatoid

Maracyn is something I have never been able to find here. I've looked for it due to Cory recommending it in several videos along the years, but it feels like it's a thing for USA only. I did some searching, and metronidazole is a medication one needs a prescription to get here. While searching I noticed a familiar name on the list, Flagyl, which has metronidazole as the active ingredient. I remember using it sometime in the past, and did find an old package. And I really mean old, sadly it has expired in 2014...

Seems Bactopur Direct is my best choice at this point, but even getting that would take some days.

[Colu]

On 2/21/2023 at 10:31 PM, aquatoid said:

Maracyn is something I have never been able to find here. I've looked for it due to Cory recommending it in several videos along the years, but it feels like it's a thing for USA only. I did some searching, and metronidazole is a medication one needs a prescription to get here. While searching I noticed a familiar name on the list, Flagyl, which has metronidazole as the active ingredient. I remember using it sometime in the past, and did find an old package. And I really mean old, sadly it has expired in 2014...

Seems Bactopur Direct is my best choice at this point, but even getting that would take some days.

Am in the UK and I order all of my medication such as kanaplex metroplex maracyn2 off eBay it can take  a couple of weeks to get here I like to have them to hand just in case

[nabokovfan87]

On 2/21/2023 at 2:31 PM, aquatoid said:

Would you mind elaborating on this gravidity theory? I know the photo is bad and can mislead, but how did that idea come to you?

For live-bearers that's known as an indication that they are pregnant and holding fry.

I would verify everything before dosing in any meds. You likely just have an egg bound oto.

@xXInkedPhoenixXawas just posting a pic of theirs and it's massive. Maybe they can help us out with ID.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@nabokovfan87I can try if I get a better picture. I cannot tell anything from the one posted.

[nabokovfan87]

On 2/21/2023 at 5:55 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@nabokovfan87I can try if I get a better picture. I cannot tell anything from the one posted.

I'll try on mine too. I think it's angle more that anything.

For reference....

This is that you see in live-bearers.

 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@nabokovfan87 I actually don't keep any live bearers in male/female groups. Only egg layers. My Neons got fat with eggs like that and when they allow me to see them, female Otos get rather rotund.

[nabokovfan87]

On 2/21/2023 at 7:41 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@nabokovfan87 I actually don't keep any live bearers in male/female groups. Only egg layers. My Neons got fat with eggs like that and when they allow me to see them, female Otos get rather rotund

Correct.  That's why I am curious if you see that same sort of spot on your oto at any particular angle.  Mine is pretty rotund, but yours is about double her belly size.

[Odd Duck]

On 2/21/2023 at 4:31 PM, aquatoid said:

Yes, the black spot. The spot seemed recessed, as if there is a gash or a rupture. I will try to see if I can get a better look and a photo if the fish ever co-operates again. Would you mind elaborating on this gravidity theory? I know the photo is bad and can mislead, but how did that idea come to you?

Maracyn is something I have never been able to find here. I've looked for it due to Cory recommending it in several videos along the years, but it feels like it's a thing for USA only. I did some searching, and metronidazole is a medication one needs a prescription to get here. While searching I noticed a familiar name on the list, Flagyl, which has metronidazole as the active ingredient. I remember using it sometime in the past, and did find an old package. And I really mean old, sadly it has expired in 2014...

Seems Bactopur Direct is my best choice at this point, but even getting that would take some days.

Metronidazole is a very stable compound.  I would try it even though it is quite expired.  The law regulates how long an expiration date is, but that doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with how stable a compound truly is or isn’t.  If it was my tank and the only metronidazole I had access to use, I would use it.

If that is truly only a dark spot them treatment isn’t needed.  My I<press ion is that there is an injury over that area and missing tissue.  Maybe I’m looking too much through the lens of an ER vet?  What does it look like in real life?  Is there a missing bit of tissue and a hole or is it just the dark spot?

It’s very sharp edged for being a gravid spot.  Or even for being the intestines through the body wall.  I’ve never noticed an oto having such a dark spot on their side before.  Admittedly, that’s not the typical viewing angle I get for otos.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Odd Duck

[aquatoid]

I have tried getting a better photo, but no luck. The trap was a bust, no oto ventured inside despite their favorite goodies being in it. I put their regular feeding platform with some food on it to see if I can at least get a good photo of it. At night the fish was displaying the spot very nicely but good luck using a flash on an aquarium, or seeing anything in a photo in the dark. 

The spot seemed smaller today with no medication given so far. It actually seems fainter too. It's entirely possible I have panicked for nothing, and it's the green food somehow showing through. But this still isn't something I have ever noticed before, and I've been feeding the Repashy for over a year now.

I got some new images, and will try to get something from an angle below and behind. At least to me it seems I'm now more capable of taking less of a potato pictures.

The photos don't obviously show 100% what it looks live. It's almost as if there is a translucent surface still there. And the angle makes a lot of difference too. The strip on top of the dark area to me seems like scales. So is there pineconing going on, and you can see this dark area because you see what is under the scales? Is the bump on the back between the head and the fin normal, or is that also scales standing up a bit? On the whole the fish does not look like a pinecone.

It is very chubby, it still eats, so maybe me feeding the fish to get it to pose for photos is harmful here. Additionally, on the angle of the fish being gravid, I'm not ruling it out as I have no experience of it with otos, but this then brings another possible issue to mind. I have lost some kuhlii loaches due to there having been issues with the eggs. One could see them being fat and see the coloration of the eggs through their sides. Basically the fish won't/can't lay the eggs, and they won't for some reason be dissolved and this causes deadly issues.

Hope the new photos and gifs look clear enough.

Edited February 22, 2023 by aquatoid
More photos, gifs, context and speculation.