Betta with popeye and a potential injury.

[Odd Duck]

@Tam I would leave the tanks empty and do 50% water changes for at least a couple weeks, then try adding shrimp.  If you want to keep red cherries and blue velvets (a color of cherry shrimp just in case you weren’t aware) then I would recommend you keep each color in separate tanks.  Otherwise they will interbreed and usually loose the red or blue color in a few generations.  They don’t mix and get purple, by the way, that’s been tried hundreds of times and no ones made any purple shrimp as far as I’ve ever read.  Eventually the shrimp will get less color and often go all the way back to clear with some brown markings.  You can get some throw backs if the genes mix just right, and depending on the original purity of your lines, you may get some other colors pop out, but mostly you’ll end up with rather non-description shrimp unless you keep the colors separate and remove any unwanted colors.  Be careful you don’t accidentally remove all the males since they often tend to be slightly less colorful.  Some people run a cull tank where they only use the shrimp for cleanup with no effort put into maintaining set colors.  Off color shrimp from their other tanks go into this cull tank.

As far as timing, that’s a giant unknown.  There is some good evidence that detrivores like shrimp are effective at digesting the bacteria they eat (that’s what they do, after all) which means they should probably be able to digest the pathogenic bacteria, too.  But I have never read any studies on whether cherry shrimp (of whatever color) will actually reduce pathogens.  There are studies that earthworms are quite effective at it, but I’ve not seen any studies about shrimp.

If you aren’t willing to do a total tank cleanup (understandably) then leaving the tank with no fish for at least 30 days or more is a decent way to reduce any fish pathogens that might be present.  Using some shrimp as cleanup is likely also a reasonable way to reduce pathogens.  I don’t think there’s any way to ensure there are no pathogens.  Pathogens are often present but in low enough numbers they don’t cause harm or they aren’t able to cause problems unless the fish get immunosuppressed for whatever reason.  There are often metabolic stressors that are just not apparent to us no matter how careful we are with our care or observation.

Sometimes things happen that are beyond our control - too much inbreeding in the fish seems to be a big problem in bettas, but there are many, many other things that could be happening.  All we can do is try to get fish from good lines that don’t have too much inbreeding, and do our best with our husbandry.  There will be times when fish keeping is frustrating and we will always feel guilty we didn’t do enough after losses.  But if you do your best, that’s all anyone can ask.  No one is perfect.  You can’t ask that of yourself.  We aren’t robots, we’re fallible human beings.

Fish aren’t perfect, either.  Sometimes their systems fail no matter how perfect the care.  Some fish don’t grow well even if every other fish in the tank is doing great.  I have one koi angelfish in my 100 G tank that is half the size of every other angel in the tank.  The kois all came from the same breeder, from a couple clutches from a couple different pairs that were all hatched about the same time.one is a “runt” that is pretty but just not growing that well.  It’s been kept in the exact same conditions as the others. Why is that one smaller?  Who knows?  It’s too small to do blood work on it.  X-rays aren’t likely to tell me anything.  I could try moving it to its own tank and focus feed it, but does it really matter in the long run?  It’s not likely to be a problem I can fix.  I’m not going to breed that one in case it’s a genetic issue.  It will live out its life with me in this angel community tank and just be pretty and dainty and hopefully happy.  Will it live as long as the other, presumably healthier angels?  We’ll see but it wouldn’t surprise me if it doesn’t live as long.

My point is that there can be hidden problems that we don’t know about that can cause problems that are not fixable or preventable.  Keeping up with cleaning and water changes, offering good quality food, and in general doing our best to keep them happy, is all we can really do. Some of it is up to them and beyond our control. 

@Tam There’s absolutely nothing wrong with mourning their loss, but some losses you just have to accept as being a part of fishkeeping no matter how hard you try.  You just can’t beat yourself up when fish pass.  Learn what you can from the experience and continue to always strive to do your best.

[Tam]

On 1/24/2023 at 8:32 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

There have been some bettas here brought back from the brink.... It's been amazing to see the recovery. Unfortunately Bettas are one of the most stressed fish in the hobby and it's difficult to get around some of their issues. There are good sources. There are good setups. But sometimes stress happens and it's a matter of genes and that can't be avoided. Things like short fins, certain types, those will increase success.  Honestly, I'd recommend the trip to ACO to pick one. Barring that Jimmy (channel is Jimmy Gimbal) has a video on YouTube about his Bettas I really think you would genuinely appreciate and admire.  Finally, I wanted to specifically mention a journ of someone here and their Bolivian ram. The conversation started with an issue, and led to a very heartwarming, fun, interesting journey with their fish and trying to get that fish more comfortable. It's worth a look just to see the start to finish and progress.  @Chick-In-Of-TheSea

There are a lot of fish, but I would say once you have a tank you like (fish aside) with plants and you're happy, then worry about fish. If you're specifically looking at Bettas, the members only Betta talk was one of the first on the channel and is extremely useful for their care. I can't recommend it enough if you happen to have access to check it out.

I really wish I could go to ACO to pick out a betta but it's a little too far for me. Both my bettas were plakats and I got them from a great place local to me in Portland called The Wet Spot, I actually learned about them through a video on the ACO channel and was stoked to find out they were local. I know that auqa huna is associated with ACO, do you know much about their bettas? I could potentially order one from there, though I'm very nervous about having a fish shipped to me, I'd be so worried something would happen to them. I will check out Jimmy Gimbal and also the thread about the Bolivian ram you mentioned! Actually the one fish outside of a betta that I've been interested in is a ram of some kind, but from what I understand a 10 gallon tank is too small for one, even the 16 gallon would be pushing it on the small side, and when it comes to the 16 gallon if I'm starting a fresh and uncontaminated tank 10 times out of 10 I will choose to put a betta in it, I love them even if they're so difficult. The heart wants what it wants! 

 

On 1/25/2023 at 12:42 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

The Bolivian ram journal is in my signature line below. That fish has a lot of personality!

Thanks so much, I looked forward to reading through it!

 

On 1/25/2023 at 2:57 AM, Odd Duck said:

@Tam I would leave the tanks empty and do 50% water changes for at least a couple weeks, then try adding shrimp.  If you want to keep red cherries and blue velvets (a color of cherry shrimp just in case you weren’t aware) then I would recommend you keep each color in separate tanks.  Otherwise they will interbreed and usually loose the red or blue color in a few generations.  They don’t mix and get purple, by the way, that’s been tried hundreds of times and no ones made any purple shrimp as far as I’ve ever read.  Eventually the shrimp will get less color and often go all the way back to clear with some brown markings.  You can get some throw backs if the genes mix just right, and depending on the original purity of your lines, you may get some other colors pop out, but mostly you’ll end up with rather non-description shrimp unless you keep the colors separate and remove any unwanted colors.  Be careful you don’t accidentally remove all the males since they often tend to be slightly less colorful.  Some people run a cull tank where they only use the shrimp for cleanup with no effort put into maintaining set colors.  Off color shrimp from their other tanks go into this cull tank.

As far as timing, that’s a giant unknown.  There is some good evidence that detrivores like shrimp are effective at digesting the bacteria they eat (that’s what they do, after all) which means they should probably be able to digest the pathogenic bacteria, too.  But I have never read any studies on whether cherry shrimp (of whatever color) will actually reduce pathogens.  There are studies that earthworms are quite effective at it, but I’ve not seen any studies about shrimp.

If you aren’t willing to do a total tank cleanup (understandably) then leaving the tank with no fish for at least 30 days or more is a decent way to reduce any fish pathogens that might be present.  Using some shrimp as cleanup is likely also a reasonable way to reduce pathogens.  I don’t think there’s any way to ensure there are no pathogens.  Pathogens are often present but in low enough numbers they don’t cause harm or they aren’t able to cause problems unless the fish get immunosuppressed for whatever reason.  There are often metabolic stressors that are just not apparent to us no matter how careful we are with our care or observation.

Sometimes things happen that are beyond our control - too much inbreeding in the fish seems to be a big problem in bettas, but there are many, many other things that could be happening.  All we can do is try to get fish from good lines that don’t have too much inbreeding, and do our best with our husbandry.  There will be times when fish keeping is frustrating and we will always feel guilty we didn’t do enough after losses.  But if you do your best, that’s all anyone can ask.  No one is perfect.  You can’t ask that of yourself.  We aren’t robots, we’re fallible human beings.

Fish aren’t perfect, either.  Sometimes their systems fail no matter how perfect the care.  Some fish don’t grow well even if every other fish in the tank is doing great.  I have one koi angelfish in my 100 G tank that is half the size of every other angel in the tank.  The kois all came from the same breeder, from a couple clutches from a couple different pairs that were all hatched about the same time.one is a “runt” that is pretty but just not growing that well.  It’s been kept in the exact same conditions as the others. Why is that one smaller?  Who knows?  It’s too small to do blood work on it.  X-rays aren’t likely to tell me anything.  I could try moving it to its own tank and focus feed it, but does it really matter in the long run?  It’s not likely to be a problem I can fix.  I’m not going to breed that one in case it’s a genetic issue.  It will live out its life with me in this angel community tank and just be pretty and dainty and hopefully happy.  Will it live as long as the other, presumably healthier angels?  We’ll see but it wouldn’t surprise me if it doesn’t live as long.

My point is that there can be hidden problems that we don’t know about that can cause problems that are not fixable or preventable.  Keeping up with cleaning and water changes, offering good quality food, and in general doing our best to keep them happy, is all we can really do. Some of it is up to them and beyond our control. 

@Tam There’s absolutely nothing wrong with mourning their loss, but some losses you just have to accept as being a part of fishkeeping no matter how hard you try.  You just can’t beat yourself up when fish pass.  Learn what you can from the experience and continue to always strive to do your best.

The tank itself has actually been empty of fish since the beginning of November when Lucien died, and I've done weekly 50% minimum water changes since then, usually more than 50%, especially in the first month when I was doing like 75-80% water changes. After Lucien died I worked really hard not to let any cross contamination happen between his and Jupiter's tanks but having Jupiter die just makes me nervous about Lucien's tank again, in case it got any contamination from Jupiter's tank despite my efforts. Do you think that catappa leaves, tea or otherwise, could help reduce any potentially present pathogens? I haven't been using it in the tank since there wasn't a fish in it. I don't really expect the shrimp to work magic or anything, it's a good idea but I'm mostly interested in having something in there other than just the snails because I'm so sad looking over at the tank, and I've always liked the shrimp. If they can help clean up anything that's a bonus but I won't hang my hat on it. I mostly wanted the blue + red ones just because I like the colors, I guess I'll have to choose one or the other which is fine. That's funny that people have tried to breed them to make purple, I wouldn't have even thought of that! How quickly do the shrimp breed? I'm a little worried about the population getting out of control without a fish in there to eat the babies. I was thinking I'd just start off with 10 of them since I vastly prefer an understocked tank, and I already have the two nerite snails in there who make enough mess on their own.

I'll try not to beat myself up too much over the loss of my fish and do my best to learn from it. Talking things out has made me feel a little better about everything and encouraged me to keep going and keep trying, I really appreciate all the info and help and kind words! I'm incredibly grateful to have found this forum. I had no idea there were even vets who could treat fish, that's amazing to me.

If anyone is curious this is the tank in question, I just did a water change and thorough cleaning yesterday so it's looking nice and tidy at the moment. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/25/2023 at 6:42 PM, Tam said:

I really wish I could go to ACO to pick out a betta but it's a little too far for me. Both my bettas were plakats and I got them from a great place local to me in Portland called The Wet Spot, I actually learned about them through a video on the ACO channel and was stoked to find out they were local. I know that auqa huna is associated with ACO, do you know much about their bettas?

You shouldn't have any issues getting a betta from either Wet spot, ACO, or AH.  Something else has to be going on, and so hopefully some people here can elaborate or review everything and chime in. 

It also sounds like the type of betta you're selecting is one that is beneficial to long term success.  So those two things are really good signs. 

Please don't feel dejected, you're doing the right things, sometimes stuff just happens.  I think Cory said it best, when you fail, it's ok. Just learn from it.  We'll figure it out and this is experience, that's beneficial and we will do everything we can to help fix things.

On 1/25/2023 at 6:42 PM, Tam said:

I will check out Jimmy Gimbal and also the thread about the Bolivian ram you mentioned! Actually the one fish outside of a betta that I've been interested in is a ram of some kind, but from what I understand a 10 gallon tank is too small for one,

I wouldn't have any issue keeping a ram by itself in a 10.  VERY TEMPTING NOW.... because I just setup a 10.

Here is the Jimmy video:

Just because we all love to see Jimmy take amazing video and fish photography... here's a bonus one. 🙂

 

 

On 1/25/2023 at 6:42 PM, Tam said:

If anyone is curious this is the tank in question, I just did a water change and thorough cleaning yesterday so it's looking nice and tidy at the moment. 

It looks very nice.  Genuinely, I can't see anything wrong with anything you're doing.  The only thing that leaves is some sort of a parameter issue.   Let me try to dig up those things and see if anything makes sense.

It's a seriously well done tank. I like the detail of the pebbles in the middle and the piece of wood dragging my eye across the front of the tank and then back across the stone.
 

On 1/25/2023 at 6:42 PM, Tam said:

The tank itself has actually been empty of fish since the beginning of November when Lucien died, and I've done weekly 50% minimum water changes since then, usually more than 50%, especially in the first month when I was doing like 75-80% water changes.

Try to make a mark on the tank with dry erase (some people use a piece of tape or something on the side too...

I don't think you have to do much in terms of siphoning the substrate given how you have the plants.  If you don't overfeed, you're set up for a fantastically easy tank to have and admire. 

Changing that much water can be very stressful for fish, especially if that means that stuff like tannins you're considering are being removed from the water.  You very likely only need to change water once every 2 weeks, but the only reason to change it more often would be for the plants themselves or if you see some issues with the betta.  I would lean towards 30-40% WCs for that fish in question and I would try to keep things consistent longer for the fish.
 

On 1/25/2023 at 6:42 PM, Tam said:

Do you think that catappa leaves, tea or otherwise, could help reduce any potentially present pathogens? I haven't been using it in the tank since there wasn't a fish in it. I don't really expect the shrimp to work magic or anything, it's a good idea but I'm mostly interested in having something in there other than just the snails because I'm so sad looking over at the tank, and I've always liked the shrimp.

Depending on water parameters and temp, some shrimp might not want the ~80 degrees needed for a betta.   I will let OD answer the question about contamination and tannins, but shrimp in a betta tank can be fun.  It gives them something to interact with, but I wouldn't keep a primary colony in there.  Something like a betta tank as a cull tank is good because if the fish gets a little happy hunting, you can always supply more.  Larger shrimp like amanos should be fine, but just know that ghost shrimp and smaller shrimp will likely end up as a toy or bit of food.

I was doing a bit of research papers on neocaridina shrimp and they had a study based on temperature, growth rates, and birth rates.  They recommended 82 degrees, which would work well, but it does shorten their lifespan as a result (the shrimp).

......alright. I tried to find them in the previous posts.

Can you please let us know your water parameters?
Temp,
KH,
GH,
PH
Ammonia
Nitrites
Nitrates

[Tam]

On 1/25/2023 at 7:42 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I wouldn't have any issue keeping a ram by itself in a 10.  VERY TEMPTING NOW.... because I just setup a 10.

Oh wow! When I tried to do some research on it it said they should be kept in minimum 20 gallon but if I could keep one in a 10 that would be amazing, I'm really tempted to try that after the shrimp have had at it in there for a few months.

Those videos were both really enjoyable, especially the second one, that alien betta was stunning and I loved listening to them talk!

On 1/25/2023 at 7:42 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Changing that much water can be very stressful for fish, especially if that means that stuff like tannins you're considering are being removed from the water.  You very likely only need to change water once every 2 weeks, but the only reason to change it more often would be for the plants themselves or if you see some issues with the betta.  I would lean towards 30-40% WCs for that fish in question and I would try to keep things consistent longer for the fish.

I didn't start doing the large water changes until after Lucien had died and only the snails were in there because I was trying to clean it out as much as possible, before that I was doing a roughly 25% water change once a week. The snails themselves have been blithely unaware of everything going on around them. I actually struggled with the tank for quite a while getting the plants to thrive, I was previously using an inert substrate and I recently swapped it out for UNS controsoil because I just really couldn't get anything to thrive in it even with root tabs, aside from a couple swords, and since I didn't have any well established plants growing in the substrate I've always vacuumed a lot. I had no idea how messy those two nerite snails would be, once they're gone I don't think I'll be keeping snails anymore. As it is I have a rabbit snail that was Jupiter's tank mate that I have no idea what to do with now since I don't want to keep Jupiter's tank as it is. I've also struggled with just about every kind of algae and also cyanobacteria in my 10 gallon, it's only in the last couple of months that I've been able to get things a bit more under control. Even so I've had a hard time having the light on for more than, like, 6 hours without algae taking over. Since I just added in some new healthy plants in the last couple weeks along with the fresh substrate I've been trying to keep the light on for 8 hours, but after a week I still need to get in there and clean up some algae because I don't want it to get out of control again. It's been a really long road with this tank which is why now that things are doing better I'm so resistant to the idea of just nuking it and starting over, I'm really attached to it. Plus in my heart it will always be Lucien's tank, and the thought of taking it down is really upsetting.

As for the water parameters, ammonia and nitrite are 0ppm, nitrates are usually around 5ppm but that's because I dose with fertilizer, otherwise the plants keep it at 0. PH is somewhat high because that's how my tap water is naturally, it's sits at around 8, though I haven't tested it since adding the controsoil, it says on the package that it lowers PH, but that wouldn't really reflect anything regarding Lucien because I didn't change it until after he died. I have a preset heater that keeps the water temp at 78, I plan to get an adjustable one before I put another fish in there. Regarding GH and KH, I don't know what those are. I can test everything afresh but I'm afraid it wouldn't give a clear picture of what things were like when Lucien got sick since I've made changes to the tank since then. The last time I tested GH and KH it was several months ago and I don't remember exactly what they were, just that they were in an acceptable range. I'm not sure how helpful any of that is! At this point I guess I'm not really trying to figure out how Lucien died since I've accepted it's probably not possible, I just want to do everything I can to make sure the tank is as safe as possible for another fish, without actually starting over from scratch.

On 1/25/2023 at 7:42 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I will let OD answer the question about contamination and tannins, but shrimp in a betta tank can be fun.  It gives them something to interact with, but I wouldn't keep a primary colony in there.  Something like a betta tank as a cull tank is good because if the fish gets a little happy hunting, you can always supply more.  Larger shrimp like amanos should be fine, but just know that ghost shrimp and smaller shrimp will likely end up as a toy or bit of food.

I was doing a bit of research papers on neocaridina shrimp and they had a study based on temperature, growth rates, and birth rates.  They recommended 82 degrees, which would work well, but it does shorten their lifespan as a result (the shrimp).

I'm getting quite excited at the prospect of keeping shrimp now, though I still don't want a whole lot of them, so if slightly cooler temps result in less breeding I'm fine with that. I'm actually toying with the idea of repurposing Jupiter's tank, since I have no attachment to it I'm fine with completely disinfecting it and starting over. I want to use it to dry start some moss on lava rock and some carpeting plants, I'm thinking monte carlo and hydrocotyle tripartita, and then maybe using it as a dedicated shrimp tank. If I did that I could do like you said and use one of my other tanks, whichever has a betta in it, as a cull tank. Thanks for all the ideas and inspiration and help! 😁

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/25/2023 at 10:02 PM, Tam said:

I didn't start doing the large water changes until after Lucien had died and only the snails were in there because I was trying to clean it out as much as possible, before that I was doing a roughly 25% water change once a week.

Very understandable, I assumed that was the case but just wanted to mention it in case that was a factor here 🙂 .

On 1/25/2023 at 10:02 PM, Tam said:

I actually struggled with the tank for quite a while getting the plants to thrive, I was previously using an inert substrate and I recently swapped it out for UNS controsoil because I just really couldn't get anything to thrive in it even with root tabs, aside from a couple swords, and since I didn't have any well established plants growing in the substrate I've always vacuumed a lot. I had no idea how messy those two nerite snails would be, once they're gone I don't think I'll be keeping snails anymore. As it is I have a rabbit snail that was Jupiter's tank mate that I have no idea what to do with now since I don't want to keep Jupiter's tank as it is. I've also struggled with just about every kind of algae and also cyanobacteria in my 10 gallon, it's only in the last couple of months that I've been able to get things a bit more under control. Even so I've had a hard time having the light on for more than, like, 6 hours without algae taking over.

Ah interesting, maybe the contrasoil leeched ammonia and caused some headaches for you?  Because you had the cyanobacteria, I would say just go ahead and to a treatment of maracyn in that tank if you need to.  Should help with peace of mind if anything.  I know the feeling of wanting to scrub / sanitize a tank due to issues, I've been there.

I don't know who originated the expression, but "good food takes time."  Your efforts have paid off and hopefully the tank is turning a corner for you. (knock on wood)

On 1/25/2023 at 10:02 PM, Tam said:

Plus in my heart it will always be Lucien's tank, and the thought of taking it down is really upsetting.

Unfortunately, you have to make new memories, but it doesn't mean you have to erase the old ones.  Time heals things, and hopefully in time you find a way to appreciate the tank, even it is always his tank.

 

On 1/25/2023 at 10:02 PM, Tam said:

As for the water parameters, ammonia and nitrite are 0ppm, nitrates are usually around 5ppm but that's because I dose with fertilizer, otherwise the plants keep it at 0. PH is somewhat high because that's how my tap water is naturally, it's sits at around 8, though I haven't tested it since adding the controsoil, it says on the package that it lowers PH, but that wouldn't really reflect anything regarding Lucien because I didn't change it until after he died. I have a preset heater that keeps the water temp at 78, I plan to get an adjustable one before I put another fish in there.

If PH is an issue, then hopefully the changes you've made and adding things like botanicals or wood to the tank help to drop it a bit.  Again, you're doing everything right it looks like.  Betta you'd want to keep the tank at 80 or so, for a bolivian ram I think you're at the right spot, the german rams are slightly warmer, and for shrimp I would drop temps which in turn does help with algae as well.

On 1/25/2023 at 10:02 PM, Tam said:

Regarding GH and KH, I don't know what those are. I can test everything afresh but I'm afraid it wouldn't give a clear picture of what things were like when Lucien got sick since I've made changes to the tank since then. The last time I tested GH and KH it was several months ago and I don't remember exactly what they were, just that they were in an acceptable range. I'm not sure how helpful any of that is!

All makes sense.  The one that really matters of those is going to be KH and how stable the tank is.  Just for the sake of clarity, this is an extremely helpful article that might be worth looking at just to clarify PH, KH, and GH!

https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/ph-gh-kh

 

On 1/25/2023 at 10:02 PM, Tam said:

I'm getting quite excited at the prospect of keeping shrimp now, though I still don't want a whole lot of them, so if slightly cooler temps result in less breeding I'm fine with that. I'm actually toying with the idea of repurposing Jupiter's tank, since I have no attachment to it I'm fine with completely disinfecting it and starting over. I want to use it to dry start some moss on lava rock and some carpeting plants, I'm thinking monte carlo and hydrocotyle tripartita, and then maybe using it as a dedicated shrimp tank.

I have to point you here.... and this photo.  If you wish to inquire further, it's a fun read into shrimp keeping 🙂
 

That front carpet of the Hydrocotyle is just one of my favorite things!


 

 

[Tam]

On 1/25/2023 at 11:06 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Ah interesting, maybe the contrasoil leeched ammonia and caused some headaches for you?  Because you had the cyanobacteria, I would say just go ahead and to a treatment of maracyn in that tank if you need to.  Should help with peace of mind if anything.  I know the feeling of wanting to scrub / sanitize a tank due to issues, I've been there.

I only added the controsoil recently when I swapped out the tanks, it's been in there for maybe two weeks and actually the tank appears to be doing really well right now. I tested the ammonia a few days after adding it and it was 0ppm, and when I tested it again when I cleaned the tank the other day it was stil at 0, so no ammonia spike. When I made all the tank changes I kept using all my hardscape/plants/filter so there's still a lot of beneficial bacteria in there keeping my nitrogen cycle going. Is treating the tank with maracyn safe for the beneficial bacteria? And the plants/snails? I've heard about people using maracayn for cyanobacteria but I was hesitant to try it because I didn't know if it would affect my beneficial bacteria and I didn't want to risk crashing my tank. I've been wondering if there was anything that I could add to the tank like an antibiotic that could also help get rid of any pathogens, so if the maracyn is safe it's very tempting to try since I have it on hand as well. I'm a little confused though because I'm seeing different instructions on how to dose it, on the box it says to add one package every day for 5 days, but on the ACO page it says to add just one package and let it sit for a week and then do a 25% water change.

I think either way I'll probably add catappa leaves/tea since it can't hurt anything and it has antibacterial properties so maybe it'll help kill any pathogens 🤷‍♀️ I plan on using it in my tanks once there are fish in there again anyway since it's so healthy for them.

Thank you for the article on GH/KH/PH, it was very helpful! I'll have to get my tests and check them all out, now that I have the controsoil especially I want to see if it's dropped my PH at all like it says it's supposed to. I'm not really sure what else to do to drop the PH since the water coming out of my tap has a naturally high PH.

I love the hydrocotyle too! It's one of my favorite plants to have in an aquarium, I'd really love to have it growing up out of my tank as well, it's so cute. And I'll add the article on shrimp to my to-read list. Thanks again @nabokovfan87 & @Odd Duck for all the useful information, you're keeping me busy 😁

 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 1/26/2023 at 9:45 PM, Tam said:

on the ACO page it says to add just one package and let it sit for a week and then do a 25% water change.

That refers to the quarantine treatment recommended when bringing home new fish.

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/26/2023 at 6:45 PM, Tam said:

Is treating the tank with maracyn safe for the beneficial bacteria? And the plants/snails? I've heard about people using maracayn for cyanobacteria but I was hesitant to try it because I didn't know if it would affect my beneficial bacteria and I didn't want to risk crashing my tank. I've been wondering if there was anything that I could add to the tank like an antibiotic that could also help get rid of any pathogens, so if the maracyn is safe it's very tempting to try since I have it on hand as well. I'm a little confused though because I'm seeing different instructions on how to dose it, on the box it says to add one package every day for 5 days, but on the ACO page it says to add just one package and let it sit for a week and then do a 25% water change.

In my experience, yes.  Snails I cannot verify, but it's used by many and hopefully they can chime in.  It may affect beneficial bacteria, but I have used it many times and never crashed a tank.

Follow the directions on the box.  You don't want to add one dose and "soak it" similar to the ACO med trio QT method.  You're actively treating for something, so you'd follow the directions on the box.

There are multiple videos in this series, but here is Steenfott treating his using the same med:

 

[Tam]

On 1/26/2023 at 8:48 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

That refers to the quarantine treatment recommended when bringing home new fish.

Gotcha, thanks!

On 1/26/2023 at 9:33 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

In my experience, yes.  Snails I cannot verify, but it's used by many and hopefully they can chime in.  It may affect beneficial bacteria, but I have used it many times and never crashed a tank.

Follow the directions on the box.  You don't want to add one dose and "soak it" similar to the ACO med trio QT method.  You're actively treating for something, so you'd follow the directions on the box.

All right, I had a peek at the box and it says it's safe for snails, so maybe I'll just leave them in, though it still makes me a little nervous. I think I'll give it a try, if there's a chance it could help reduce pathogens I think it's worth it, and I trust your personal experience! I don't have any visible cyanobacteria right now after swapping out the tank and the substrate and having a couple black out days, but I don't trust that it's actually gone, that stuff is stubborn! I'll probably start the treatment at my next scheduled water change.

I do have another question if you don't mind. I've taken down Jupiter's tank and am working on disinfecting it, since I've decided I want to use it to dry start some plants and then possibly fill it up later and decide in time what I want to put in it. Right now I have a mixture of 1 cup bleach to 9 cups water in a spray bottle and am spraying it down several times throughout the day and letting it sit, and then I was thinking about sending it through a high heat cycle in my dishwasher without any detergent. Do you think that 1. it would be safe to put it in the dishwasher and 2. if this is enough to sterilize it? Do you have any other methods of sterilizing? I'm really paranoid and want to be thorough about it. I won't be reusing any of the hardscape or plants I had in it and will be starting over from scratch. I'm going to bleach dip the heater and I have an unused HOB filter I'm going to use for it down the line.

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/27/2023 at 6:34 PM, Tam said:

I do have another question if you don't mind. I've taken down Jupiter's tank and am working on disinfecting it, since I've decided I want to use it to dry start some plants and then possibly fill it up later and decide in time what I want to put in it. Right now I have a mixture of 1 cup bleach to 9 cups water in a spray bottle and am spraying it down several times throughout the day and letting it sit, and then I was thinking about sending it through a high heat cycle in my dishwasher without any detergent. Do you think that 1. it would be safe to put it in the dishwasher and 2. if this is enough to sterilize it? Do you have any other methods of sterilizing? I'm really paranoid and want to be thorough about it. I won't be reusing any of the hardscape or plants I had in it and will be starting over from scratch. I'm going to bleach dip the heater and I have an unused HOB filter I'm going to use for it down the line.

There is no need to run it through the dishwasher.  Bleach is plenty strong enough and it's going to do everything you need to.  After 1-3 treatments, then you should be fine in terms of removing anything.  If you are worried about filtration, with similar things, then you can completely disassemble it and spray that as well.  I would lean towards a sink full (or bucket) of water with a scoop of seachem safe or something else after you rinse everything.  That is similar in method to how George Farmer cleans his CO2 diffusers and then gets them "fish safe".  Air dry everything completely and rinse it as best as you can to get as much of the bleach off.  If I still smell bleach then I'll repeat that process a few more times.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

@4:06 in this video is how I sanitize.

 

[Tam]

On 1/28/2023 at 4:31 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

@4:06 in this video is how I sanitize.

 

Thanks again @Chick-In-Of-TheSea, this video was a great watch in general! Hearing about her experience spreading columnaris to her other fish was so sad but validating in a way, it's something that happens to pretty much everyone at some point, no one can be perfect.

 

On 1/27/2023 at 8:31 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

There is no need to run it through the dishwasher.  Bleach is plenty strong enough and it's going to do everything you need to.  After 1-3 treatments, then you should be fine in terms of removing anything.  If you are worried about filtration, with similar things, then you can completely disassemble it and spray that as well.  I would lean towards a sink full (or bucket) of water with a scoop of seachem safe or something else after you rinse everything.  That is similar in method to how George Farmer cleans his CO2 diffusers and then gets them "fish safe".  Air dry everything completely and rinse it as best as you can to get as much of the bleach off.  If I still smell bleach then I'll repeat that process a few more times.

Right now I have the filter from Jupiter's tank along with the spiderwood and a few little lava rocks in one of my 3 gallon QT tanks with the rabbit snail that was his tankmate, so I just need to sterilize the heater for now since it's the only thing I plan to reuse aside from the tank itself, well and the net, I wonder if I can bleach dip that too? I'm not sure what to do with bunny, I'm worried about putting him in my 10 gallon or into the 16 or 6 when they're up and running in case he has contaminants on him or something...

So long as the dishwasher won't hurt the tank or something I think I might just do it anyway, I feel like it will be able to do a much better job of rinsing the tank of bleach than I can, and maybe I can throw the net in there as well. I have fritz complete water conditioner that I bought to have on hand even though I'm on well water and don't technically need something that removes chlorine, I assume that would work instead of the seachem safe? I was going to just do several pumps of it since I don't know how many exactly would be needed.

I think I might start a sort of Journal thread on here once I get going on my 16 gallon and 6 gallon tanks to document the whole process since I have a lot of ideas and am really excited about it, and the methods I'm going to be using are new to me, just to sort of keep track of it all for myself but also if anyone wants to follow along and maybe has tips or advice. I will probably put updates on my 10 gallon on there as well. I don't know if anyone would be interested in following along but I think I would enjoy writing about it. I'd like to participate on here in ways that aren't just asking for help when I have a sick fish. I really enjoy the community here, everyone has been so great! I've never been a part of a forum before so I hope I don't end up doing it wrong or something, I don't really know the etiquette 😆

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/28/2023 at 6:00 PM, Tam said:

So long as the dishwasher won't hurt the tank or something I think I might just do it anyway, I feel like it will be able to do a much better job of rinsing the tank of bleach than I can, and maybe I can throw the net in there as well. I have fritz complete water conditioner that I bought to have on hand even though I'm on well water and don't technically need something that removes chlorine, I assume that would work instead of the seachem safe? I was going to just do several pumps of it since I don't know how many exactly would be needed.

I really, really wouldn't.  Using temperature over bleach for this just doesn't make sense.  Nothing survives bleach.  As long as your application is sufficient to treat whatever you need to via dip or other methods, bleach will work.

https://www.cdc.gov/hygiene/cleaning/disinfecting-bleach.html
 

Depending on the dishwasher in question you could create hot spots, one part could be very hot while the other isn't.  Then you'd have to check the temps dishwashers get to in order to sanitize compared to what the materials would hold.  I have seen some pretty crazy things ran through a dishwasher, but there is legitimately no need when you can add some bleach and dip it for a certain amount of minutes to do exactly what you need to.  All you need to do is take care to rinse things effectively, then you're safe.

 

Most people don't want to use the harshness of bleach and just add vinegar to the tank to sanitize....
 

 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I wouldn’t trust the seals of a tank after being beat up by all the spray from a dishwasher. Don’t dishwashers get to pretty high temps? Not sure the tanks and silicone are made for that? Plus, dishwasher soap leaves a film (for a spot-free finish).
 

Bleach (chlorine) residue, if any, would be rendered harmless by dechlorinator. @Tam

Edited January 29, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Tam]

@nabokovfan87 @Chick-In-Of-TheSea Duly noted, clearly the dishwasher is a bad idea, thanks guys! I'll just make liberal use of the dechlorinator after very thoroughly rinsing. I have a lot to learn 😅

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

@Tam Hydrogen peroxide is a good choice for sanitizing also. I believe @Colu and @Odd Duck use it.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Tam]

On 1/29/2023 at 10:17 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

@Tam Hydrogen peroxide is a good choice for sanitizing also. I believe @Colu and @Odd Duck use it.

Oh that's great, I actually sprayed it down with hydrogen peroxide when I initially cleaned it out but I wasn't sure if it was enough so I also did the bleach.

I currently have the tank back on its stand and filled up with water and like ten pumps of the fritz water conditioner since I don't know how much is needed. Also hoping the tank still holds water, it's a pretty cheap tank with unnervingly thin glass and every time I bumped it even slightly while cleaning it I was cringing. A part of me wouldn't mind if it leaked and gave me the excuse to upgrade the tank, but otherwise I can't quite justify the expense on top of everything else 😆

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 1/29/2023 at 5:43 PM, Tam said:

and like ten pumps of the fritz water conditioner since I don't know how much is needed

You can just use the dosing on the bottle. Dose for full tank volume since this is newly filled with tap water. 

[Colu]

What I use is a 3% hydrogen peroxide solution  hydrogen peroxide breaks down into H20 and  oxygen within 48hr just give the tank a rinse with dechlorinated water  @Tam

[Tam]

On 1/29/2023 at 2:50 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

You can just use the dosing on the bottle. Dose for full tank volume since this is newly filled with tap water. 

Got it, thank you!

On 1/29/2023 at 4:27 PM, Colu said:

What I use is a 3% hydrogen peroxide solution  hydrogen peroxide breaks down into H20 and  oxygen within 48hr just give the tank a rinse with dechlorinated water  @Tam

Perfect, I'll definitely be using this! I already have hydrogen peroxide in a spray bottle that I use against bugs on my houseplants.

[Tam]

So I just did the water change on my 10 gallon and added the first packet of maracyn to it after and it immediately started fizzing and making a lot of bubbles above my sponge filter, is that supposed to happen?? I feel like it's immediately killing off my beneficial bacteria 😬 I mean it's still a better option to kill off bad things than just tearing down the entire tank and starting over, and I know some beneficial bacteria will be caught in the crossfire, but anytime something unexpected happens it makes me nervous... @nabokovfan87 Has this happened for you?

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/30/2023 at 1:28 PM, Tam said:

@nabokovfan87 Has this happened for you?

It is normal when using erythromycin, yes.

Kind of like an alka seltzer in some ways when you add it, I'd imagine is what you saw?  Just the powder and stuff trying to become soluble.

When you add it try to lightly sprinkle it in a thin layer across the surface of the water and to avoid big clumps.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 1/30/2023 at 6:53 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

When you add it try to lightly sprinkle it in a thin layer across the surface of the water and to avoid big clumps.

You could also put some tank water into a small cup and then stir the medicine into that before adding to the tank. I think I did have excess bubbles on the surface when I used Maracyn. Medications do change the viscosity of the water.

[Tam]

On 1/30/2023 at 3:53 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

It is normal when using erythromycin, yes.

Kind of like an alka seltzer in some ways when you add it, I'd imagine is what you saw?  Just the powder and stuff trying to become soluble.

When you add it try to lightly sprinkle it in a thin layer across the surface of the water and to avoid big clumps.

Oh good, I was getting worried. It's been a couple hours now and there's still a lot of fizzing/foaming in the bubbles over my sponge filter...

On 1/30/2023 at 4:05 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

You could also put some tank water into a small cup and then stir the medicine into that before adding to the tank. I think I did have excess bubbles on the surface when I used Maracyn. Medications do change the viscosity of the water.

I'll probably do this for the next dose tomorrow so it can disperse through the water more easily.

I also made up the catappa leaf tea today and added some, so my water is looking quite dark/yellow. I won't add quite that much in the longterm but right now I wanted to add a lot in the hopes it could help with any pathogens as well 🤷‍♀️ 

Thanks again for all your help! I get really nervous whenever I try new things with my tanks, like right now even though it specifically says on the package that the medicine is safe for snails I'm still worried it'll hurt my nerites... on one hand I don't actually want to have snails anymore because they're so messy, but I'm still attached and don't want anything to happen to them.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 1/30/2023 at 7:14 PM, Tam said:

I'll probably do this for the next dose tomorrow so it can disperse through the water more easily

Just look away when you dump the packet so you don’t breathe it in. That stuff is powdery! (Ask me how I know this) 🤣