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Betta with popeye and a potential injury.


Tam
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Here I am again, I was hoping I wouldn't have to return so soon looking for help and advice after the last time, since it's only been a month. This time it's my betta fish Jupiter, and I just want to get some opinions and see if I'm doing what I should be doing. Over the past couple of days one of his eyes has swelled and at the same time I've noticed a little hole/scratch by his eye. I say hole because to me it really looks more like a hole than what I imagine a scratch would look like, I don't know if he got an injury and that's causing his eye to swell or if it's something else. My betta Lucien died a month ago from some kind of suspected fungal infection that moved very fast, and I know there was contamination between the two tanks despite my best efforts so I'm on very high alert with Jupiter. His behavior seems fine, swimming energetically, eating voraciously, very active and alert, he's even been making bubble nests with gusto lately. Still I've put him in a 3 gallon quarantine tank with a heater and air stone and just started treating him with kanaplex, because I don't know for certain what's causing the popeye and if it is just an injury I don't want infection to set in. I'm not sure if there's more I should be doing, or if this is the wrong course of action to begin with. This is my first time actually using meds on a fish and I'm nervous. I only just in the past week or so started adding catappa leaves to his tank, and when I checked his tank at his last water change on Tuesday (two days ago) there was actually a little ammonia in the water which really surprised me since his tank is fully cycled and has been up since March. I'm kicking myself for getting into the habit of not consistently checking my water parameters. I do water changes of around 30-40% weekly, but still. Here is a photo of Jupiter with his enlarged eye and the hole/scratch for reference. His other eye looks perfectly fine and normal.

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Aww @Tam I'm sorry!! I think kanaplex is a good course of action.

The ammonia is concerning for sure but it may or may not have been the cause- water parameters are typically the cause of BOTH eyes having popeye- so inspect him closely. Usually one eye is an injury. Now the ammonia will not help the infections he could get so that will need to be addressed.

Check the tank for other tankmates (can't remember if he had any) who have passed. Do you leave the Catappa in the tank? They can only stay in the tank for about a week before they start to decay in a hotter tank- so make sure you pull them. This is why I make Catappa tea instead. I didn't like the mess decaying leaves made in my tank. and I imagine could potentially cause ammonia. Would be fine if I had shrimp in my tanks but I don't. Also check for other decaying plant matter. 

The next thing you'll need to do if you haven't- check all around the tank for things that could have caused injury. Make sure the filter, hardscape and other items are not too close to the back or sides of the tank so he doesn't try and squeeze through and hurt himself. My test is if I can comfortably run my flat hand around the outside of the tank without having to rub hard against anything. Also make sure nothing has sharp edges. 

In the meantime in the QT keep the water pristine, you can also use aquarium salt in the tank with the Kanaplex. It's very important to make sure the water is good so I usually do daily small water changes when a fish has an infection like this. That can be problematic when medicating so you can do it every other day right before you medicate again. Also remember to put only as much salt back in the tank that you believe to be lost during the water change as salt does not dissipate. 

The other thing you can do to reduce swelling is short Epsom salt soaks. Epsom you can get at the drugstore if you don't have it - JUST MAKE SURE IT HAS NOTHING BUT SALT (some have oils like coconut or lavendar this are no good for your fish). So you mix 1 tablespoon in 1 gallon of water (I use an empty gallon jug and shake it to mix) then I take a small container and put my fish in there with a bit of the Epsom solution. This can be done for 10-15 minutes ONLY, once a day for 5-7 days as long as it doesn't stress the fish more and seems to be helping. 

Hope this helps. I know it's stressful. Betta are very difficult fish to keep. I hope he gets better. Popeye can be tricky. May take a few rounds of Kanaplex then a lot of time and care for them to get back to normal. 

Edited by xXInkedPhoenixX
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Thanks so much @xXInkedPhoenixX for replying, I was hoping you would! I'm really relieved to see a lot of my thoughts confirmed, and for some extra tips! I was already planning on picking up some aquarium salt tomorrow and was thinking of using it in conjunction with the kanaplex, glad to have that course of action reinforced. I always second guess everything a hundred times when it's something new that I'm not experienced with. How much of the aquarium salt should I add per gallon? I was also intending to do a water change every other day before dosing the next rounds of meds. The package says to dose every 48 hours up to 3 times, and then if I need to I can do another course for a total of 6 times as long as the fish isn't stressed. There are some tighter spots in his tank where he would have to squeeze to get through, I'll definitely fix that before he goes back in his tank. He does have one snail as a tank mate but it's doing just fine, so no worries there. The amount of ammonia was small but any amount is concerning. I don't think that's what's caused the popeye but it's definitely an exacerbating factor, definitely doesn't help, and frustratingly I don't actually know how long it could have been a problem because I hadn't checked his water parameters in a while. Checking weekly for a long time and always seeing 0ppm for everything lulled me into a false sense of security. The catappa leaf has only been in the tank for a week + a couple days, I'll do the tea method from now on. I was wondering how putting a leaf in the tank wouldn't just cause ammonia as it broke down, should've gone with my gut on that one. If the swelling in Jupiter's eye gets worse I'll look into an epsom salt bath to reduce swelling, but I get nervous about doing too much and causing more stress... I do have some on hand at least, without any additives. Since the kannaplex is one scoop per 5 gallons I actually filled his quarantine tank with 2 and a half gallons so I could easily halve the scoop, I did it as carefully as I could using a razor blade to level it off and then separate it out. Jupiter has been in the quarantine tank with the meds for a few hours now and is just as active as ever, he never seems to hold still which is the norm for him. The flow of the air stone was a little strong in the 3 gallons without anything else in it to impede the flow so I put a valve on it to lessen the amount of air that gets through and that seems to be working. I'm very helicopter parent with my pets so I'm watching him like a hawk. Thanks so much for your help and encouragement!

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Sometimes, especially when you're new at something it's good to bounce ideas off others or just have others confirm your thought process. There are always other ways to approach the same problem in the aquarium hobby so it can be very confusing and frustrating at times because there is not just ONE right answer. I don't care how experienced any fish keeper is - we ALL run into issues (I'm having a mysterious issue with my Oto tank right now) and it just takes time and thought to figure things out. 

On 12/8/2022 at 7:29 PM, Tam said:

How much of the aquarium salt should I add per gallon?

Go with the package instructions. You can start with half that dose and work your way up to a full dose. I have to look at the box every time I do it! Hahaha! There are times you can up the dosage even more- check out the aquarium salt blog page on the Aquarium Co-op's main site for more: 

https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/aquarium-salt-for-sick-fish

Some countries like Canada don't have access to meds like we do so treating with salt is the only option. 

On 12/8/2022 at 7:29 PM, Tam said:

If the swelling in Jupiter's eye gets worse I'll look into an epsom salt bath to reduce swelling, but I get nervous about doing too much and causing more stress...

I get this. Keep an "eye" on the eye. :-) 

I have 3 gallon QT too, and it's amazing how much flow an airstone can cause. 2 of my Betta rescues are awaiting their tanks with just airstones in the QT with them. I had to dial the air pump back a bit to get them to the right flow. I didn't have any extra nano filters at the time, but these are also very good for future:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07XZ831WR/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

They're gentle on the flow and will help with filtration in QT especially if it will be long term. You can sanitize it after use let it dry out really good then run one in your main tank (it comes with an extra sponge too) so that you can when need be, throw it in a quick QT. Has saved me many times. 

It's good that Jupiter is moving as normal, hopefully eating well too. We couldn't save Lucien but maybe Jupiter will pull through for us! I wish you both lots of luck. Let me know how he's doing. 

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Thank you again @xXInkedPhoenixX for your help, I've been so busy I couldn't reply until now! Jupiter still seems to be doing fine, pretty active and always eager to eat though honestly I think he's bored in the bare tank. I feel bad because he's been happily making tons of bubble nests for the past month for pretty much the first time since I got him and I feel like I've disrupted his fun. I changed his water today and I checked the ammonia levels beforehand and there was 0ppm thankfully. When I notice he's had a bowel movement I've been siphoning it out and he always eats all of his food at mealtime so there's never leftovers in the water. I took out two gallons of water and replaced them, adding a tablespoon of aquarium salt and the next dose of kanaplex after dissolving them first. I got imagitarium aquarium salt from petco and it didn't have any dosing instruction so I followed what aquarium co-op said, except I added a tablespoon for his 2 and a half gallons of water instead of the 3 that it said for the lowest dose, which I hope is okay. His eye hasn't gotten any worse, but I don't know how long it should take for it to get better. Will it actually decrease in size again? I'll do this for as long as I need to but I'm wondering how long I'll have to keep him in the QT for, like weeks?? The first round of kanaplex will be finished on day 8, but I'm not sure how to tell if he needs another round or not.

Edited by Tam
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It can take a very long time until you know for sure what his eye will ultimately look like. I think once you finish the rounds of Kanaplex and if you decide to do a few Epsom soaks it should be safe to put him back in his own tank, just be vigilant of his water parameters. I'm glad he's not getting worse and is still eating/pooping and active. 

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This has helped me a lot with 1 of my bettas.. I plan to follow same course of action with Gargameal. Not sure if Popeye bc it is only the 1 eye. I think it might be a growth of some sort but want to treat it just in case bc my mom recently lost a fish to popeye. She got the Betta from the petstore with Popeyes already and when visiting on the holiday I said mom I think he has popeye. She really knew no better but after pointing out behaviors her Betta was displaying she rushed out and got meds but it was too late. Reason I don’t think mine is Popeye is bc he eats blows nests active and it’s complete opposite behaviors. Snowflake looked lethargic floating sideways at times and eyes bulging. I came on here and glad I did not even consider Epsom salt baths and also gave me some hope that this might not be Popeye and also insight on what to do during treatment with water changes and how long to expect to keep him in hospital tank. Thank you both for the help! I will check back in on Junipers progress as it gives me hope for Gargameal! 

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Okay @xXInkedPhoenixX I'm here for your help again. This isn't really the update I wanted to give, I'm suddenly getting worried about Jupiter's behavior. He seemed fine and active this morning but around afternoon he seemed to be moving more slowly, staying at the bottom of the tank more, and then this evening as I've been keeping an eye on him he spends all of his time resting on the bottom of the tank, particularly under the heater, and pretty much only comes up for air unless I'm standing in front of his tank to get his attention. He ate with his usual gusto this morning and has had a bowel movement today but he maybe seems a little bloated to me, I'm not sure, I could just be over sensitive to that because Lucien had chronic constipation/bloating problems. I haven't given him his dinner yet, but the way he swims up to the surface expectantly when I go to his tank makes me think he'll probably eat it. I checked the water and ammonia was 0ppm. Tomorrow is the last day of treatment and I'm not sure he should be moved back into his tank or if I should continue treatment. I don't know if it's any of the stuff I added to the water that's making him behave this way or not, it's just been the aquarium salt and kannaplex, and some water conditioner when I did water changes. He was still acting normal when I took him out of his tank for treatment, he just had the one popeye and the little injury, or whatever that is, but his behavior was the same as always. Now he's really lethargic, and as a fish that's always been extremely active since I got him this worries me a lot. I took a video of him but I can't upload it here, so here are a few screenshots. I really can't tell if there's anything physically different with him or not, like I can't tell if his other eye looks like it's swelling too now or not... the original one is definitely still larger but it's so hard for me to judge. He doesn't exactly look happy, or like he's feeling well. I'm really not sure what to do at this point 😭

I'm sorry the photos are blurry and not very good, if you think it would help you I can try to take some better ones.

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Edited by Tam
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Ugh! Bettas are SO hard!!! 

Ok I stared at your photos, his right eye was the one in the original photo you had concerns with (right if he's facing you). It's really hard to tell with his coloring but it *seems* a little less swollen to me. I'm telling you popeye is not an easy thing to get rid of- a lot of the time it will never look the same. I haven't treated a Betta, but a catfish and it took months, after I medicated him and did Epsom soaks it was weeks of water changes and salts. It got better. So long road ahead. 

I hope he ate for you. I'm hoping he's moping since he interacts when you are near. Hanging out near the heater? Can you check the temp away from it and close to it? I'm just curious. 

Here is my thought. Once you've finished treating him with Kanaplex. Return him to his tank for a day- maybe he perks up. Go get yourself some Metroplex if you can, Focus too if you can find it (both Seachem). I would *just* thaw a block of bloodworms, mix some Focus (to help bind the med- if you can't get it, just mix in the Metro), and the Metroplex and put it back in the plastic mold- refreeze. Metroplex I'm told is best taken in food. I'd cut a small piece off the block and let it thaw, then feed him the bits you get out of that. for 7 or 8 days. He'll be back in his home and we can see if the Metro which treats bacteria/infections the Kanaplex didn't and hope to see improvement. Daily water tests or changes. 

I'm really crossing my fingers for you and Jupiter. I'm sorry you are going through this. 

Edited by xXInkedPhoenixX
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I can get both metroplex and focus on amazon but it'll take a couple days to get here, I don't think I'll be able to find them locally. I'm already planning on going to petco on thursday so I can pick up some frozen bloodworms then (all I currently have are frozen mysis shrimp) and by then the meds will hopefully have arrived, but shipping is tough right now so who knows. Right now it says the metroplex would get here Saturady and the focus would get here monday 😣 I was just in front of his tank taking more pictures and he was acting very excited and alert, but he does seem to stop and rest at the bottom even then for a bit. When I tell you this fish never holds still I'm not exaggerating, so even this little brief rest is weird for him. I just went and offered him his dinner and no worries about his appetite, he snapped it up eagerly. I've attached the additional photos I took. Thanks again for all your help! I'd be at a loss otherwise.

ETA: I don't think the temp around the heater is really any different than the rest of the tank, and I made sure the heater is actually still working, the QT is the same temp as his usual tank. I think he hangs out by the heater because there's nothing else in the tank for him to cuddle up to. 

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Edited by Tam
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It's still really hard to tell with his eyes on the pictures. You know him best and could tell if it's not normal, maybe look at old pics of him and now side by side (I can create a collage in my phone, try doing that if you can). It's not severe even if both eyes are. 

If you can get Maracyn 2 that could also work (mixing in food is best), I think the big box stores often carry that. You'll be minus the focus but you could still try while you wait for it. Seachem stuff can be harder to find in those stores. If he likes mysis you can use that. Doesn't have to be bloodworms but he might really love those if you can get them. :-) 

Edited by xXInkedPhoenixX
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OK, I’ve skimmed through a bit, but did want to chime in here.  The “hole” on his left side by the affected eye is his nostril.  It does look a bit enlarged and prominent and coupled with the eye being pushed outward makes me think of either infection behind the eye or a tumor behind the eye.  It could be injury, but that doesn’t seem as likely at this point.  Since it seems to have partially resolved and not worsened, I would say infection is far more likely at this point.  There is likely an abscess behind the eye and it is notoriously difficult to get antibiotics into an abscess pocket, so persistence in treatment is key.  Maracyn 2 (minocycline) or Metroplex (metronidazole) would be my first choices for treatment.  You need an antibiotic that is absorbed by mouth to get into deeper tissues.  Use the recipe @Coluhas helpfully provided for the metronidazole and see how things progress.  But be patient and persistent and expect any changes to potentially take weeks to months.  As long as things continue to improve and there is no worsening, keep going.  Pristine water is always the best thing you can provide for sick fish.  Also do the Epsom salt soaks exactly as @xXInkedPhoenixXhas suggested.  It can help to pull a bit of swelling out of the area.

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@Odd Duck I wondered if maybe it was his nostril but then it seemed it had clearly gotten bigger to me and it's just the one that's like that, it never stood out that much before or I'd have noticed it. Makes sense that swelling in the area would be the cause. I'll see about doing the epsom salt soaks, it just makes me nervous because when I've tried to find instructions about it in the past I always got a different salt vs water ratio and amount of time to keep him in etc. I'll use the metroplex as soon as I get it, maybe I'll get lucky and it'll arrive sooner than Saturday. Then when the focus arrives I'll mix that in as well, and until then I'll do the epsom salt soaks. The only maracyn my local petco has is fritz maracyn oxy which is a liquid and I don't think is the right thing.

I'm doing a very thorough cleaning of his tank today and as long as the ammonia issue is resolved I'll put him back in his own tank and keep a close eye on him. He perked up last night after I fed him dinner, and this morning as well after I fed him breakfast, but he still seems a bit listless. Again it could be boredom. I have his QT next to his main tank and last night he saw his snail and got very animated, so I'd like to think he just wants to be back in his home.

@xXInkedPhoenixX When you do the epsom soaks the container you put him in is purely the 1TBSP mixed with the gallon of water right? It's not diluted or anything? Out of nerves for messing up I'll probably only keep him in for 10 minutes 😣 

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@xXInkedPhoenixX Oh also, do I need to have a secondary container with a bit less of the salt in it that I put him in before returning him back to his tank? When I was trying to find good instructions about it before a bunch of places said to have two containers, one with the full salt amount and one with like a quarter of it to put him in for a few minutes after being in the first one, and then put him back in his tank, so as to like, adjust him to the different levels of salinity more gradually. Or is that not important? All the conflicting info about it confused me which is why I never tried it before.

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I get it. There's mixed information all over the net. My motto, keep it simple (I'm also a bit of a rebel so sometimes I might go a little off the path, but only when it seems to work for me). I only use one small container, so I don't have to use much solution, making sure what I choose is too tall for them to jump out but not so tall that it's awkward to get them out. If I can I catch my Betta by hand - but when getting them out of a tank usually easier to net them out. Soak. Then again if you can catch them by hand and put them back great, if not, net them again and release them back into their tank. 

However I do see that you are a careful person, if you would like to do the "acclimation" method, absolutely do so, it won't hurt. I've never had issue with the other way but never hurts to be careful that's for sure. The site I see that recommends it (acclimation), also recommends (soaks) 3-4 times a day. I've only ever done once a day for 5 -7 days. Doing soaks 3-4 times a day would stress ME out! (I'd maybe only be able to tolerate 2x a day at MOST with a poor sick fish). Upon further looking a lot of Betta sites recommend acclimation, so like I said, it shouldn't hurt- go for that. 

Maybe @Odd Duck has a preferred method for whether or not to acclimate from an Epsom bath, I'd go with her direction if she offers one. 

Edited by xXInkedPhoenixX
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All right, I think I'll keep it simple and just do the one container, and I'll only do it once a day and see how he does, if it goes well and seem to be helping I'll do it for the full week. I think I'll take him from the QT and do the epsom salt bath and then put him back into his own tank. Unless the change of 3 different waters would be more stressful? I could put him back in his tank after I clean it this afternoon and then do the epsom salt bath this evening once he's gotten acclimated to his own tank again, then he would go from his tank to the bath and then back to his tank. I dunno if I'm overthinking this, it's kind of what I do with everything 😆

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Lol, I get it. They are in our care so you don't want to do anything wrong. Maybe hold off on the Epsom and return him to the tank. See what @Odd Duck says about the salt soaks (acclimate or not? how often?). This could start tomorrow (soaks). With 3 opinions (or more if offered) we can probably come up with a legit plan! haha! Just let hiim get used to his surroundings at home again. 

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All right, I was already leaning towards letting him acclimate to his tank again, I can start the epsom soak tonight or tomorrow. I'm actually in the middle of cleaning his tank right now and the ammonia was back to 0ppm, so that's a relief!

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Unless you are planning to treat the main tank, I would put him back in the quarantine tank to finish all treatments.  At least the first week.  I don’t recommend acclimating with a weaker solution since so much transferring is likely more stressful than just putting them back in the QT after the soak.  I recommend once daily for 10-15 minutes.  It doesn’t seem to me that more than 15 minutes will accomplish anything more.

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@Odd Duck Ack, well, he's already back in his tank, and the poor guy was so excited to be back too. I still have the QT up though, it just needs a water change. Do you recommend leaving him in the QT for the duration of the epsom salt treatments or the metroplex + focus or both? I won't be able to have the meds til Saturday at the earliest, and I won't have both until Monday at the earliest. And should I continue treating him with the aquarium salt while he's in the QT or just leave the salt that's in there to be removed with water changes? I can put him back in this evening, and then start the epsom salt tomorrow evening... I'm working within weird pockets of time for various reasons so it's a little difficult to juggle. Sorry for all the questions, I just don't want to do anything wrong 😣

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On 12/14/2022 at 5:07 PM, Tam said:

@Odd Duck Ack, well, he's already back in his tank, and the poor guy was so excited to be back too. I still have the QT up though, it just needs a water change. Do you recommend leaving him in the QT for the duration of the epsom salt treatments or the metroplex + focus or both? I won't be able to have the meds til Saturday at the earliest, and I won't have both until Monday at the earliest. And should I continue treating him with the aquarium salt while he's in the QT or just leave the salt that's in there to be removed with water changes? I can put him back in this evening, and then start the epsom salt tomorrow evening... I'm working within weird pockets of time for various reasons so it's a little difficult to juggle. Sorry for all the questions, I just don't want to do anything wrong 😣

Unless we can figure out exactly what’s wrong, I would keep him in the QT.  That doesn’t mean scoop him out again today just to transfer him, that’s just adding un-necessary stress.  Tomorrow after his treatment with Epsom salts, I would put him back into the QT unless you’re willing to risk his main tank getting further contaminated with whatever organism is causing the current issue.  As far as duration, that really depends on his response to treatment, but I would plan on at least a week.

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