Betta with popeye and a potential injury.

[Tam]

@Odd DuckOkay, I'll put him back in the QT tomorrow evening after doing the epsom salt treatment, and I'll keep him in there for at least the first half of treatment with the new meds, and I guess I'll leave out the aquarium salt? I'm kind of glad I put him back in his tank for tonight though because he's been very active in there again, which makes me hopeful that he just really didn't like the QT and was moping about it, since he's been zooming around his tank all day today. Thanks so much for all your help!!

[Odd Duck]

On 12/14/2022 at 8:45 PM, Tam said:

@Odd DuckOkay, I'll put him back in the QT tomorrow evening after doing the epsom salt treatment, and I'll keep him in there for at least the first half of treatment with the new meds, and I guess I'll leave out the aquarium salt? I'm kind of glad I put him back in his tank for tonight though because he's been very active in there again, which makes me hopeful that he just really didn't like the QT and was moping about it, since he's been zooming around his tank all day today. Thanks so much for all your help!!

I would still do the aquarium salt at low dose, at least 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons or a little higher - 1 tablespoon per 3 gallons.  Table salt (sodium chloride) and Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) are completely different things and there’s no reason to lose the benefit of the aquarium salt while doing the daily Epsom salt dips.  They don’t contradict each other.

[Tam]

@Odd Duck Great, I'll keep up the aquarium salt then, I've had it at 1 TBSP per 3 gallons. Tomorrow I'll completely change out the water from the QT to start off fresh and add back in the aquarium salt. I'll feel better knowing he's getting some kind of additional treatment too while I'm waiting for the meds to get here. I wonder if there's anything I can add to his tank to give him something to do so he doesn't get so despondent and feel exposed in the empty tank, I wish I had one of those little suction cup betta tunnels.

[Tam]

Update on Jupiter! He seems to be doing well, he really perked back up while he was back in his tank, he was very active and zipping all over. At one point when I fed him he got so eager jumping out of the water for it that the splash he created actually hit my glasses 😆

As of yesterday evening I gave him the first epsom bath for ten minutes which he had no problems with and now he's back in the QT with aquarium salt. To my eye it seems like his one enlarged nostril is looking smaller and he's very active and alert. I think his eye looks the same, but now I know it'll take time to see any changes there, and I don't expect it to ever quite look the same. I got the frozen bloodworms yesterday and the good news is the meds are actually both going to arrive today, several days early! My question is @xXInkedPhoenixX how much of the bloodworms do I feed him in one meal and how many times a day? Is it just once a day with the bloodworms and then feed him his usual food, or is it supposed to be his every meal?

ETA: Also is it okay for me to thaw a whole cube and keep the leftovers in the fridge until he finishes them?

Edited December 16, 2022 by Tam

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Just once a day is fine, cut pieces off a frozen block. The worms don't stay good for more than a day *maybe* 2.

 

 

 

[Tam]

Thanks @xXInkedPhoenixX! He's back to acting all mopey in the QT, even though I'm pretty sure that's all it is it still makes me a little nervous. He started his meds yesterday and ate the bloodworms no problem, though today he had a not great looking poop and idk what that's about because they were fine before. Tonight will be his 3rd epsom bath and he's been doing just fine with them so I'll do the full 7 days, I'm just not sure how long I should do the meds for? I would really like to get him back in his own tank since he's so miserable in the QT. If I need to do the meds for longer than a week I'm wondering if I could put him back in his tank after the first week and then continue giving him the meds while he's in his own tank.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I would follow what Odd Duck said below: 

Unless you are planning to treat the main tank, I would put him back in the quarantine tank to finish all treatments.  At least the first week.  I don’t recommend acclimating with a weaker solution since so much transferring is likely more stressful than just putting them back in the QT after the soak.  I recommend once daily for 10-15 minutes.  It doesn’t seem to me that more than 15 minutes will accomplish anything more.

Edited December 18, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Tam]

Hello, I'm just checking in to say Jupiter returned to his tank yesterday after 2 weeks in the QT with aquarium salt and the metroplex mixed into his food and he's doing great! He even started making bubble nests while in the QT, and now that he's back home he's happy as ever, zipping around all over the place and never holding still. His eye still looks pretty much the same, but I think it's just always going to look like that, and it's clearly not hurting him so as long as he's happy I'm happy. Thanks so much again for all your help, I learned a lot through this and the support was amazing! I hope you had a good holiday season and have a happy new year! I've included a picture of Jupiter back in his tank, he's such a good lil fish 😊

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Glad he is ok! Happy New Year!

 

 

Edited January 1, 2023 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Tam]

All right, not exactly happy to be returning to this thread, I was hoping I wouldn't need too, but Jupiter is having problems again. He did well in his tank for a couple of weeks making bubble nests and swimming actively, eating enthusiastically, and then over the last couple of days he started either hanging out all the time at the bottom or at the waterline and not moving much. His swimming was kind of erratic at times and he kept shaking his head. I checked his water parameters but ammonia/nitrite/nitrate were all 0ppm, still I was worried there's something going on with the water that I can't test for so I moved him back into the QT last night with aquarium salt since then I would for sure know the water is clean but I'm not sure what to do from here, thinking of maybe treating with another round of kannaplex... I have maracyn and maracyn 2 now as well. I was hoping he'd have perked up a bit more by this morning but he hasn't, and his swimming is kind of weird, like he's not using his fins as much to move around and he's just moving his body more, if that makes any sense. It reminds me of how Lucien was swimming before he died. I got him to eat this morning but he wasn't really excited about it, and he's also not as active and responsive when I go up to the tank. Otherwise I can't really see anything with his outward appearance that stands out as any different. He's not a very old fish, I got him in March of last year so I haven't even had him for a year yet. @xXInkedPhoenixX Would very much appreciate some input if anyone is still willing to weigh in!

ETA: His stomach has been bloating over the the course of the day but he's had a bowel movement so he's not constipated, I wasn't sure what meds to use so I dosed kannaplex. It's really looking a lot like how Lucien died right now, I'm not sure if he'll be able to come back from it, once Lucien started really going downhill it happened very fast 😞

ETA2: He has some of the weird sort of fuzz on his side that Lucien got right before dying too, it's hard to see unless I'm looking at him straight on, but it wasn't even there earlier in the day. I still don't know what the fuzz is because when I look up pictures of fungus it doesn't look like any of it, and it only appears near the end of whatever this is... so whatever it is I can pretty much confirm it's what Lucien had. I have no idea why it didn't respond to meds, or if it did respond to meds the first time he just got reinfected after I put him back in his tank?? I upped the dose of aquarium salt but at this point I don't have high hopes. 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Tam

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

☹️ very sad to see. @Odd Duckmed ideas?

[Odd Duck]

@Tam,I know it’s will probably be hard to get a pic while in a quarantine tub, but;I a can be very helpful.  If possible a pic from the top and one from the side to show the bloating?  Anytime there is bloating or swelling, you can risk at least one Epsom salt soak of 10-15 minutes.  Even if he passed some stool that doesn’t completely rule out constipation.  They may be passing some stool but it may not be passing normally.  So try a soak and if you do the soak in a specimen container you can get pics while he’s soaking.

I would also do the Metronidazole again since that helps with many GI issues and a few skin issues.

Edit to clarify and add: Fish will produce more slime coat when sick.  It is a self-protective, automatic thing and does not necessarily mean things are going the wrong way.  If it worsens, it could be a skin infection, but see what kind of response you get to Epsom soak and Metronidazole treatment - dosing in the food would be best for Metronidazole, if you can get him to eat it.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Odd Duck

[Tam]

@Odd Duck Thanks for the response. Unfortunately I really don't think I can get him to eat at this point, and all the symptoms are identical to what happened to my fish Lucien in the 48ish hours before he died. Whatever it is it goes very quickly, literally a week ago he was swimming around happily and making bubble nests. 

These are the best photos I can get at the moment, he's in the corner of the tank thus the distortion of his face, but you can see his bloating in the first photo, it's a little exaggerated by the curve in the tank but not by that much. In the last photo you can see whatever it is that's on his side, is that his slime coat?? Jupiter is only my second betta so I'm really unfamiliar with these things, I'm trying my best but I feel like I keep failing him. I don't have a specimen container, if he's still hanging on in the morning I'll do an epsom soak but he's looking so bad I hate to have to net him and move him, he's hanging down at the bottom exclusively so I can't scoop him up in a cup like I normally would.

[Tam]

Jupiter is still alive this morning but his coloring is completely washed out and he's very bloated and he darts erratically up to the surface very frequently for air, much more than he normally would, like he can't actually breathe properly. Again all of this is just like what happened to Lucien. I'm not sure doing an epsom salt bath is worth the stress it'll cause him when I don't think it will be able to help him at this point. I have no idea what this is that suddenly comes on and progresses so quickly, he looked pristine even a few days ago, it makes me really worried about getting other fish because I feel like everything I have is tainted, and even with a whole slew of medications and interventions and watching him like a hawk it still didn't prevent this from happening, like I still didn't take action quickly enough 😞 I feel like a total failure that I can't even keep him alive and healthy for a year and I should've done better.

[Colu]

On 1/22/2023 at 5:58 PM, Tam said:

Jupiter is still alive this morning but his coloring is completely washed out and he's very bloated and he darts erratically up to the surface very frequently for air, much more than he normally would, like he can't actually breathe properly. Again all of this is just like what happened to Lucien. I'm not sure doing an epsom salt bath is worth the stress it'll cause him when I don't think it will be able to help him at this point. I have no idea what this is that suddenly comes on and progresses so quickly, he looked pristine even a few days ago, it makes me really worried about getting other fish because I feel like everything I have is tainted, and even with a whole slew of medications and interventions and watching him like a hawk it still didn't prevent this from happening, like I still didn't take action quickly enough 😞 I feel like a total failure that I can't even keep him alive and healthy for a year and I should've done better.

What I would do is start treating with the metronidazole in food as@Odd Ducksuggested if you can't get him to eat dose the tank  and I would also add some aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 1 gallon the will aid essential electrolytes and aid Gill function and Indian almond leaves as they have antibacterial and antifungal properties 

[Tam]

@Colu I can dose the metroplex in the water column but I'm afraid he's actively dying at this point, I think it's too late for anything to help him.

[Colu]

On 1/22/2023 at 8:21 PM, Tam said:

@Colu I can dose the metroplex in the water column but I'm afraid he's actively dying at this point, I think it's too late for anything to help him.

 Sorry to hear that you could try the medication if you think he's two far gone  and  you think he's suffering you can humanely euthanize him with clove oil 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Colu

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

How sad, very sorry. :-( 

[Odd Duck]

On 1/22/2023 at 2:21 PM, Tam said:

@Colu I can dose the metroplex in the water column but I'm afraid he's actively dying at this point, I think it's too late for anything to help him.

I’m so sorry.  Things like this can be very frustrating.  I’ve had a Betta die of what started out like a superficial skin infection but didn’t respond to treatment at all and then progressed very rapidly.  Did I miss the initial symptoms because I had a crazy schedule right then?  Out of pure laziness or lack of observation?  Or was he just that good at hiding symptoms?  We all doubt ourselves at times and we all have good days and bad days at times with our fish or other pets.

What many people are not aware of, is that fish are actually extremely tough!  We think of them as being very delicate and sensitive, and in some ways they are.  But in other ways, they are soooo tough they are very successful at hiding their symptoms, often until they are much farther along in the disease process than in comparison to when a dog or cat would show their symptoms.

@Tam, we know how tough and frustrating it can be when you’re trying to do everything right and things still go wrong.  This is the least judgmental forum I’ve ever been part of and we’ve probably all been in your shoes at one time or another.  Heck, I just recently lost 2 common plecos from my 75 gallon tank, not even a tiny blip in water parameters, but first one passed, then a week later, the other one.  Not a mark on them and full, but not distended bellies.  Just found dead.  The first one I thought got trapped in between pots (his body was really stuck), the second one didn’t show anything and wasn’t stuck anywhere.  🤷🏻‍♀️ I’m a veterinarian, so you can imagine my guilt at not being able to keep a common pleco alive.  Sometimes you just have to accept fish loss as something that happens and we can’t always figure out why without extensive testing and sometimes even with that testing, it still doesn’t give us answers.

As long as Jupiter is trying it’s fair to keep trying meds.  If he completely gives up, or continues to worsen, it might be time to euthanize.  How to mix euthanasia solution for fish is below.  I don’t know if snails or shrimp/crabs/crayfish will be affected the same way, I only have information on fish dosing.  Pardon the formatting/font size, it’s very difficult to change the font size on my iPad for some reason.

Euthanasia solution with clove oil:

For 100 mg/mL stock solution mix 1 part clove oil with 9 parts of 95% ethanol (Everclear, 190 proof), (in the USA, over-the-counter clove oil is ~1 g eugenol/ml clove oil).  Then mix to 40-120 mg/L bath - around 1 ml/L to make it simple.

Example: 0.1 mls clove oil into 0.9 mls Everclear (190 proof ethyl alcohol) = 1 ml stock solution to add to 1 liter of tank water (per quart is close enough).  For larger fish, 1 mls of clove oil into 9 mls alcohol for 10 liters of tank water (2.6 gallons).  For a 10 gallon tank, you will need 4 mls clove oil into 36 mls alcohol.

The alcohol is what lets the eugenol (the active ingredient) dissolve into the water.  Otherwise the clove oil just floats on the water surface and may not be effective.  Keep the fish in the clove oil mixture until at least 20 minutes past any gill movement, then remove the fish from the water, place in a plastic bag with as minimal air as possible, then freeze as quickly as possible for a full 24 hours or more before disposal.

[Tam]

@Odd Duck Thank you, unfortunately Jupiter passed away last night, I buried him next to Lucien today 😞 I'm really at a loss for what to do, I have just the two tanks and will just take down Jupiter's because I could never get it growing plants properly, the only thing it ever grew well was algae, but I'm really attached to Lucien's tank and after all this time it's finally growing well. After leaving it empty since the beginning of November when Lucien died I just recently changed the actual tank out because it had a leak near the top, swapped out the substrate, but put back in all the hardscape, plants and filter, and I was hoping that whatever the pathogen is it would've died out without a host and I could introduce a new fish, but now with Jupiter dying of the same thing I have no idea what to do. I'm afraid now that there could be contamination back from Jupiter's tank into Lucien's despite my best efforts to keep them quarantined from each other. I really really don't want to have to nuke the tank because of all the work I've put into it over the past year and a half, plus the cost of having to throw out everything and replace it is a big obstacle for me. I wish I just knew exactly what this pathogen is so I could be certain of how to treat it, but it seems like once the really obvious symptoms show up it moves too quickly for meds to help. I'm sure that how I treated Jupiter initially helped or else he wouldn't have improved over that time right?? But I don't know if the one round of kannaplex followed by the two weeks of metroplex wasn't enough, or if he just got reinfected once he was back in his tank. If it's so contagious in the tank how could I treat the fish in a QT and then reintroduce it to its tank without it getting reinfected anyway, that's something I've never understood, but everyone says to treat in a QT and then return them to the same tank?? I also have a 16 gallon tank that I want to get going, I have everything gathered to hook it up with co2 and everything, but I'm afraid to even start up that one because it could get contaminated too. If you have any advice/wisdom/experience to share about any of this I'd really appreciate it, because I'm really upset and at a loss for what to do. I still feel very new and inexperienced in this hobby and the last thing I want to do is get another fish and then have it die of the same thing, I would feel so guilty. I really wish this hadn't happened with my first fish and tank, it's so discouraging 😣

If anyone else reads this and can weigh in too I'd also really appreciate it. I feel way out of my depth.

[Odd Duck]

Sorry for your loss.  It's always disheartening.  It doesn’t necessarily mean they died of the same thing or for the same reason.  It could just be that both had immune suppression for whatever reason and passed of similar symptoms.

I would recommend you leave the tank empty of fish for at least a month, do several large water changes, and consider not putting the same species back in the tanks unless you do a full disinfection and reset just to be extra safe.  You could consider putting shrimp in there for several weeks since they eat bacteria and other microfauna.  That might help clear out some pathogens?

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/23/2023 at 7:16 PM, Tam said:

If anyone else reads this and can weigh in too I'd also really appreciate it. I feel way out of my depth.

Needless to say, we've all been there.  This hobby has some difficult days and some trials you have to journey through.  We are here to help and we are here to give you advice and try to get you and your fish on the right path! 

I am sorry for your struggles and losses. 

[Tam]

On 1/23/2023 at 10:19 PM, Odd Duck said:

Sorry for your loss.  It's always disheartening.  It doesn’t necessarily mean they died of the same thing or for the same reason.  It could just be that both had immune suppression for whatever reason and passed of similar symptoms.

I would recommend you leave the tank empty of fish for at least a month, do several large water changes, and consider not putting the same species back in the tanks unless you do a full disinfection and reset just to be extra safe.  You could consider putting shrimp in there for several weeks since they eat bacteria and other microfauna.  That might help clear out some pathogens?

With regards to fish I'm really only interested in keeping bettas, I'm so devastated to have lost both my little guys, I loved them so much and really tried my best for them even if it wasn't enough. The fact that they died within two months of each other when I know there had to have been contamination between the tanks really makes me think it was the same thing, plus the similar symptoms and how quickly they went after the onset of the really obvious ones, but there were a couple things that were slightly different so I guess it's not impossible. And clearly I don't really know very much about this. I'm not sure if that's better though, on one hand it would mean there wasn't contamination, on the other it means I had two different things kill my fish which makes me think I really am just bad at fish-keeping. I just don't know how these illnesses get into tanks in the first place? It's not like I ever slacked off on cleaning, I was always very consistent about it. I'm warming to the idea of getting some shrimps for the tank, though, and letting them have at it for a few months, and then down the line I can decide if I want to risk putting another betta in there. I'm not sure how well they would cohabitate, though I've seen some people pull it off. I've always kind of liked watching the shrimp, maybe a mix of red cherry shrimp and blue velvet shrimp. Do you think I would need to wait the minimum of a month before introducing shrimp too?

I think for right now I'm going to focus on getting my 16 gallon going, and I'm going to work extremely hard at preventing any contamination. I love the hobby and the thought of stopping here is upsetting to me, like I can't imagine not having a tank up and a little betta buddy. Already I realize how I'm constantly looking over at them without even thinking about it, now that my fish are both gone and there's no one to look at. It feels very sad at feeding time too 😞

I really appreciate your replies, thank you again!

On 1/24/2023 at 1:04 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Needless to say, we've all been there.  This hobby has some difficult days and some trials you have to journey through.  We are here to help and we are here to give you advice and try to get you and your fish on the right path! 

I am sorry for your struggles and losses. 

It's been really hard not feeling like a total failure and like if I'd been better my fish would still be alive. It's so frustrating having this mysterious illness and feeling like there's no way to completely get rid of it without destroying everything I've worked so hard on for the past year and half. I suppose following people on social media who have tanks and seeing them keep their bettas for a long time with no illness doesn't help, it makes me wonder what they're doing right that I'm doing wrong. Thank you, I appreciate your kindness!

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/24/2023 at 6:35 PM, Tam said:

It's been really hard not feeling like a total failure and like if I'd been better my fish would still be alive. It's so frustrating having this mysterious illness and feeling like there's no way to completely get rid of it without destroying everything I've worked so hard on for the past year and half. I suppose following people on social media who have tanks and seeing them keep their bettas for a long time with no illness doesn't help, it makes me wonder what they're doing right that I'm doing wrong. Thank you, I appreciate your kindness!

There have been some bettas here brought back from the brink.... It's been amazing to see the recovery. Unfortunately Bettas are one of the most stressed fish in the hobby and it's difficult to get around some of their issues. There are good sources. There are good setups. But sometimes stress happens and it's a matter of genes and that can't be avoided. Things like short fins, certain types, those will increase success.  Honestly, I'd recommend the trip to ACO to pick one. Barring that Jimmy (channel is Jimmy Gimbal) has a video on YouTube about his Bettas I really think you would genuinely appreciate and admire.  Finally, I wanted to specifically mention a journ of someone here and their Bolivian ram. The conversation started with an issue, and led to a very heartwarming, fun, interesting journey with their fish and trying to get that fish more comfortable. It's worth a look just to see the start to finish and progress.  @Chick-In-Of-TheSea

There are a lot of fish, but I would say once you have a tank you like (fish aside) with plants and you're happy, then worry about fish. If you're specifically looking at Bettas, the members only Betta talk was one of the first on the channel and is extremely useful for their care. I can't recommend it enough if you happen to have access to check it out.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

The Bolivian ram journal is in my signature line below. That fish has a lot of personality!