Here we go again with columnaris

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Today I transferred 10 fish from a one month quarantine tote to the display tank but upon viewing them through glass, 2 are clearly sick. Does this look like fungus or something else? One fish is affected on the body and another has a spot on the head.

 

 

During quarantine they had paracleanse followed by Level 2 salt.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

My gut is telling me columnaris which I’ve dealt with before, same species of fish at that time as well. @Colu do you think so? Kanaplex and jungle fungus time?

Edited October 9, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Colu]

It looks like the start of columnaris I would start treating with kanaplex and Jungle fungus clear straight away to get on top of it before it starts spreading to your other fish @Chick-In-Of-TheSea

Edited October 10, 2022 by Colu

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Thanks @Colu I started the treatment.

I moved those fish out to quarantine.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 10/9/2022 at 8:43 PM, Colu said:

It looks like the start of columnaris I would start treating with kanaplex and Jungle fungus clear straight away to get on top of it before it starts spreading to your other fish @Chick-In-Of-TheSea

I guess do the Kanaplex/JF a second time? Wait how long in between treatments?

[Colu]

On 10/15/2022 at 8:47 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

I guess do the Kanaplex/JF a second time? Wait how long in between treatments?

What I would do is two 50% water changes then redose the medication following the treatment plan

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Thanks @Colu. Any salt?

[Colu]

You can use salt 1 table for 5 gallon will add some essential electrolytes to give them more energy to fight of the infection 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

The guy in quarantine is doing well.  I lightly fed him Xtreme Krill flakes.  I don't feed fish on parasite meds, but if it's other meds I sometimes offer just a tiny bit.  This also helps me to check on him, because I use a tote and the water is green from the fizz tabs and hard to locate him, especially with the extra bubbles on top (caused by the meds). 

He was eager for the snack, and he looks like he is improving.  He is on day 2 of the 2nd course, with the 2 TBSP of salt for his 10-gallon tote.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Alright. Today is the last day for 2nd course. He still has a patch on top but the other ones went away. So I will be doing salt only now, after I give him a break. I need to do some water changes. He still has some salt in there which I will add back with each water change.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[nabokovfan87]

@Chick-In-Of-TheSea We were talking slightly in the journal, I totally forgot about this thread.  In terms of meds and the main tank.  Do you have any Ich-X or jungle fizz tabs and the other meds you've been using to treat this? 

https://veterinaryresearch.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1297-9716-44-27
From section 3 of the above page.

Quote

F. columnare produces two types of mucus. The first one is an acidic polysaccharide and is made visible by ruthenium red staining. Another type of mucus is a basic, partially acetylated polygalactosamine, which cannot be stained with ruthenium red. Pate and Ordal described a capsular material which coated the surface of the bacterial cell that could be stained with ruthenium red [70]. They stated that the ruthenium red-positive material was probably an acid mucopolysaccharide that might be involved in the adhesive properties of the cells. The exact role of the mucopolysaccharides was however not further illuminated in this study. Decostere et al. demonstrated that the adherence capabilities of a highly virulent F. columnare strain to the gill were significantly reduced following treatment of the bacteria with sodium metaperiodate or incubating them with D-glucose, N-acetyl-D-glucosamine, D-galactose and D-sucrose [11]. Treatment with pronase or trypsin did not cause any significant inhibition of adhesion [11]. The same research group noted that the highly virulent strain had a thick capsule with a regular and dense appearance, whereas the capsule of the low virulent strain was much thinner. This made them to speculate that a lectin-like carbohydrate substance incorporated in the capsule might be partially responsible for the adhesion to the gill tissue.

The survival time of fish experimentally challenged with F. columnare by intraperitoneal injection with iron-free human transferrin (Sigma) was reduced when iron was injected prior to exposure. The effect of iron was only evident in one of the two strains examined when the challenge was delivered via immersion. These results indicate that iron depletion may limit the virulence of F. columnare more in systemic infections than in external infections. This hypothesis is supported by data indicating that administration of transferrin prior to challenge increased survival after challenge by injection but had little or no effect on bath-challenged fish [94]. However, the results found were not consistent for all strains tested and no statistical data were presented.

Several immunization experiments adopting different administration routes, have proven that fish can be protected from subsequent F. columnare infections by activating the adaptive immune system [20, 22, 95–98]. High agglutinin titers and good protection were obtained in trout following subcutaneous or intraperitoneal injection with heat-killed F. columnare cells [22]. Schachte and Mora obtained a high agglutinin titer in channel catfish by intramuscular injection of heat-inactivated cells of the pathogen, but the actual level of protection was not examined [99]. Becker and Fujihara reported that rainbow trout injected with heat-killed cells produced an agglutinating titer of 1:5120, and that 60-70% of the trout later survived an injection of 10⁶ live F. columnare cells [96]. Tilapia (Oreochromis niloticus (L.)) could mount a significant humoral response in plasma and cutaneous mucus to F. columnare after intraperitoneal immunization with formalin-killed sonicated cells in Freund’s complete adjuvant [97]. Protection levels were not investigated in the latter study. Protection was obtained after oral immunization with heat-killed or formalin-killed cells of F. columnare in the fish feed of three-month-old coho salmon (Oncorhynchus kisutch) [22, 100]. However, the protection as observed in these studies did not go hand-in-hand with high agglutinin titers. Bath-immunization with a bacterin was shown to protect carp against experimental challenge but antibodies against F. columnare were not detected in sera from immunized fish [101]. Song’s work with bacterins demonstrated unequivocally that immersion vaccination could result in high levels of protection, but field test results were inconsistent [102]. Song was able to demonstrate that there was cross-protection between isolates and that there may be a common protective antigen among the strains tested [102]. Polyvalent vaccines have also been tested. Using intraperitoneal injections of a combination of formalin-killed F. columnare, Aeromonas salmonicida and Yersinia ruckeri antigens, interference from A. salmonicida antigen was shown to suppress responses to two other antigens [100]. Commercially available oral and bathing vaccines have been successfully tested in largemouth bass (Micropterus salmoides) fry and salmon, respectively [95, 103]. Vaccination trials are further elaborated on below.

I think treating the tank for bacterial may make sense for this situation, even just one dose to try to clean any remnants in the tank.  Something is causing the stress on the fish and letting it re-infect.  I'm just thinking out loud, but trying to sterilize all the equipment you can, any buckets, containers, etc. and then trying to remove any stress.  I know you're doing awesome with that last part and the fish don't have any reason to be stressed anymore so it's gotta be lingering somewhere.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 10/20/2022 at 9:21 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

@Chick-In-Of-TheSea We were talking slightly in the journal, I totally forgot about this thread.  In terms of meds and the main tank.  Do you have any Ich-X or jungle fizz tabs and the other meds you've been using to treat this? 

https://veterinaryresearch.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1297-9716-44-27
From section 3 of the above page.

I think treating the tank for bacterial may make sense for this situation, even just one dose to try to clean any remnants in the tank.  Something is causing the stress on the fish and letting it re-infect.  I'm just thinking out loud, but trying to sterilize all the equipment you can, any buckets, containers, etc. and then trying to remove any stress.  I know you're doing awesome with that last part and the fish don't have any reason to be stressed anymore so it's gotta be lingering somewhere.

The fish in question is a new fish I bought. He is not a relapse case; it’s just that the day I added him to the main tank I could finally see what his symptoms were. I couldn’t tell he had symptoms through the plastic of the QT tote. Qt tote gets sanitized as well as nets, buckets, anything else that touches that water, between each fish purchase.

(Symptoms noticed within 5 minutes of getting him into glass tank)

[redfish]

On 10/20/2022 at 8:21 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

@Chick-In-Of-TheSea We were talking slightly in the journal, I totally forgot about this thread.  In terms of meds and the main tank.  Do you have any Ich-X or jungle fizz tabs and the other meds you've been using to treat this? 
 

@nabokovfan87

Is Ich-X similar to Jungle fizz for treatment?

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Ich X treats fungal infections and Jungle Fizz treats fungal infections as well as bacterial infections.  It gets a little bit more complex with gram-positive and gram-negative treatments.  @Colu is pretty good with that type of thing and maybe can help?

Might as well give an update on the little dude as well.  He's still doing good; good appetite and activity level.  Still looks patchy - more than I'd like - but he completed 2 treatments of JF/Kanaplex and now he's on a level 2 salt after having a whole bunch of water changes.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Colu]

On 10/24/2022 at 6:40 PM, redfish said:

@nabokovfan87

Is Ich-X similar to Jungle fizz for treatment?

Ick x treats ich and opportunistic fungal infection's jungle fungus clear fizz tab's treat's gram negative and some some gram positive bacteria and also treats dermal fungus 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Colu

[Mahi27]

Just wanted to chime in that I have the same problem going on right now and I found this thread just by searching the forum. Except I didn't realize what was going on in my Vienna guppy tank last spring and, as a result, have spread it to virtually all of my 14 other tanks. 

 

It's incredibly frustrating and worrisome and heartbreaking. I don't like seeing my fish sick. I culled the entire guppy tank after treating with single rounds of Maracyn + Ich X, Maracyn 2, and salt, and seeing some improvements but still losing a guppy a day or so. 

Literally as soon as I finished saying goodbye and dosing the tank with clove oil, it finally clicked that actually *all* of my tanks had at least one fish with the same strange patchiness on their back and side. And that unless I wanted to give up this entire hobby and all my fish, I needed to keep pursuing treatment. 

I'm on Day 3 of @Colu's jungle fizz/kanaplex regimen. Praying that it works. So far everybody is ok -- even snails and shrimp and my giant loveable a-hole crayfish, Shredder. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 10/24/2022 at 2:31 PM, Mahi27 said:

Just wanted to chime in that I have the same problem going on right now and I found this thread just by searching the forum. Except I didn't realize what was going on in my Vienna guppy tank last spring and, as a result, have spread it to virtually all of my 14 other tanks. 

 

It's incredibly frustrating and worrisome and heartbreaking. I don't like seeing my fish sick. I culled the entire guppy tank after treating with single rounds of Maracyn + Ich X, Maracyn 2, and salt, and seeing some improvements but still losing a guppy a day or so. 

Literally as soon as I finished saying goodbye and dosing the tank with clove oil, it finally clicked that actually *all* of my tanks had at least one fish with the same strange patchiness on their back and side. And that unless I wanted to give up this entire hobby and all my fish, I needed to keep pursuing treatment. 

I'm on Day 3 of @Colu's jungle fizz/kanaplex regimen. Praying that it works. So far everybody is ok -- even snails and shrimp and my giant loveable a-hole crayfish, Shredder. 

So sorry you are going through that @Mahi27. I’ve had good luck with the JF/Kanaplex treatment for columnaris on more than one occasion. Do you have the option to move your invertebrates out of medicated tanks?

Shredder is an epic name for the crayfish. 

Do be careful not to use nets or other equipment/ gravel vacs between tanks and wash your hands before touching the next tank, etc

Edited October 24, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Mahi27]

Hi @Chick-In-Of-TheSea, thank you for your reply. You said you've had success with the treatment on multiple occasions...does that mean your fish are getting reinfected? Do you think these are new introductions of the disease or is it the same infection rebounding continually?

In regards to the inverts, I think I will actually consolidate some of the fish into fewer tanks and leave the inverts where they are and w/c the meds out. So you do think they're at risk?

pic of Shredder attached... 🙂

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 10/24/2022 at 2:44 PM, Mahi27 said:

You said you've had success with the treatment on multiple occasions...does that mean your fish are getting reinfected

There was one rebound case where a little one went through treatment and looked good but when I put him back in the tank everyone bullied him. He relapsed due to the stress of the attacks. No one else in the tank was affected and I always moved the sick fish out to my quarantine tote immediately.

my most recent case occurred in a new fish I bought. He’s in the quarantine tote and finished 2 courses and now he’s getting level 2 salt treatment. Columnaris is very stubborn. 

On 10/24/2022 at 2:44 PM, Mahi27 said:

So you do think they're at risk?

pic of Shredder attached

Yes. Inverts do not tend to do well with meds in general. 
 

Shredder is EPIC!

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Here’s my previous thread 

 

[redfish]

On 10/24/2022 at 12:53 PM, Colu said:

Ick x treats ich and opportunistic fungal infection's jungle fungus clear fizz tab's treat's gram negative and some some gram positive bacteria and also treats dermal fungus 

How does Jungle Fizz fit in with the recommended med trio?  Is it a replacement to anything (Maracyn, Ich-X, ParaCleanse)  or is it another med to add as needed?

[Colu]

On 10/24/2022 at 8:26 PM, redfish said:

How does Jungle Fizz fit in with the recommended med trio?  Is it a replacement to anything (Maracyn, Ich-X, ParaCleanse)  or is it another med to add as needed?

Jungle fungus clear fizz tab's are one of only few medication still available containing nitrofurazone I use that in conjunction with kanaplex to treat more severe bacterial infection such as columnaris body rot subborn cases of fin rot

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/24/2022 at 10:40 AM, redfish said:

Is Ich-X similar to Jungle fizz for treatment?

Jungle - Fungus Clear Tabs:
ACTIVE INGREDIENTS: NITROFURAZONE, POTASSIUM DICHROMATE

Hikari - Ich-X:
For Aquarium: Water, Formaldehyde (<5%), Methanol (<2%), Malachite Green Chloride (<0.1%)

So directly, no.  They both are designed for fungal, one might work better for a specific issue.  I do know a lot of us tend to have Ich-X handy. That's why I mentioned it.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Got an ammonia reading of .25 this morning on the QT tank.  Expected.  It's the salt.  When adding a bunch of salt at once, it slows the bacteria, but the bacteria will spring back.  To combat this, I added Prime.  This method is controversial.  Some would say do water changes.  But then you blow through a bunch of product that way.  The bacteria will spring back.  It just takes a couple of days.  I will test daily and treat daily if test results warrant.  Little fellow is doing well.  Symptoms are still there but they have improved.  The guy in the recovery unit looks good, symptom wise, but he also looks a bit scrawny.  He too eats well.  I'm just not confident enough to put him back in the display tank just yet.  Knowing my gang, they bully weak ones.  So we shall stay the course.  He has some more friends now (shrimp) and I think the little increase in activity helps his boredom.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Here are some photos of fishy in recovery unit and ill fishy.