The line between hobby and job

[Cinnebuns]

I used to be a hard-core gamer in world of warcraft in some top 100 guilds in the world. Eventually I decided to play the game casually but I had a hard time transitioning from treating the game like a job to treating it like a game. That transition taught me something. It taught me that if I'm playing for fun, then I should never feel forced to do a particular task. 

I also used to be a professional clasical/jazz percussionist. I remember the day I had to go to rehearsal and said out loud "*sigh* it's time to go to work."  Until that moment I had never thought of music as work and never thought it possible. 

These 2 experiences have shaped how I view the line between hobby and job. This line is different for everyone but I believe it is important to think about where that line is for you. Not doing so can cause you to view your hobby as a job and decrease your enjoyment of it, or, if it is a job, cause you to forget what you love about it and forget to keep your hobby alive. 

For me, it comes down to choice. In a job you have much fewer choices with much more severe consequences. You don't do the work, you risk your job, you don't make money, and more bad follows. In a hobby there is still consequences but often not as dramatic. 

A great example for me happened tonight, which I mentioned in another thread. I was super tired and my cories decided to start to spawn. If it was my livelihood to raise fish you better bet I wouldn't have questioned that decision and would have stayed awake to collect eggs, but because it is my hobby I had a choice. This night I did stay up to collect eggs because I chose to, but there have been many nights I went to sleep. I believe if I were to force myself to collect when I do not CHOOSE to then my mindset would slowly turn my hobby into a job which I want to avoid. 

I'm interested to hear how others view this and how they manage it. Like is said, everyone's line will be in a different place and in a different shape, but everyone has one. How does yours look?

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/3/2022 at 11:25 PM, Cinnebuns said:

I'm interested to hear how others view this and how they manage it. Like is said, everyone's line will be in a different place and in a different shape, but everyone has one. How does yours look?

I have had waves of "excitement" with the hobby, but I think the answer to the question you posed has a few other topics that speak to where you're at.

One of my things growing up that I really enjoyed was watching, learning, and getting hands on in the kitchen.  My mom tells me that before I could even speak I was watching Yan Can Cook and all I remember is growing up watching Emeril and being so annoyed I had to go to bed some nights.  I'd watch Maria Batali, Good Eats, Tyler Florence and Wolfgang Puck and I would just absorb everything. I had no idea how to cook, but I studied and learned from them.  I would help my mom with dinner almost every night growing up and that was how I learned all the family recipes. Eventually she let me cook. Corrected me, and I never "did it the right way", but I've come to learn that cooking isn't about being right and precise. Not for me and how I enjoy doing so.  I will say, despite my dreams and wanting to be some passionate chef cooking italian food somewhere, I opted not to go that route because I didn't want it to be something I ended up hating. I love it so much and it's such a release for me emotionally, mentally, that I just don't want it to be something I do to death. I want cooking for others, those moments, to be special and unique.

Please enjoy....
 

The other thing I enjoy doing is writing. I won't get into specifics and honestly "writing" comes in so many forms that it's not about one type for me.  I enjoy the process and the moment.  I enjoy trying to tell a story and trying to articulate (be it poorly at times) in some way how exactly I want to describe the essence of a moment. Maybe it's such the smallest detail that only I'd ever pay attention to and appreciate, but it's something that I try to put words to something that is..... integral. There's a powerful energy to that feeling and it's something where I do have days where I can write 5-15 pages without even blinking. Other days I will flat out refuse to do so because I'm not mentally able to dedicate myself to that medium.  There are other days where I mentally am ready for it, but physically just don't have the time or place to do so.  I'll think about what to say in my mind, try to take mental notes for later, but later never comes.  Again, it's one of those things where I don't share some of those things because I just don't want it to become a negative. I think that mentality speaks volumes.

With my aquarium, it's a place of peace, serenity, and it's a place where I can take my design mind and put it to use. Even just messing with what way the rock is laying on the substrate, spending time to observe, it's a great way to escape uneasiness and anxiety in that way for me.  When I'm frustrated I will go and clean filters. When I need time to meditate, I will get some tea or coffee or a beverage and go observe the fish.  I cannot recommend that last one enough.  I'd love to challenge everyone to take 15 minutes and just stare. Force yourself to sit there long enough and be absorbed into that world and ignore the things around it....

I definitely understand what you mean when you say there's a line between it being a job and being a hobby.  I think something like having too many tanks really does hurt a lot of hobbyists. It also can be down to perspective and how you want to view the work. If you focus on making time to enjoy the glass box, maybe that makes it something a job won't ever become....  I can't think of the last time someone meditated at work. I do understand what it's like to go to work and "get away" from it all. To feel less stressed because you are working extremely hard at the desk.

[Brian]

On 6/4/2022 at 2:25 AM, Cinnebuns said:

believe if I were to force myself to collect when I do not CHOOSE to then my mindset would slowly turn my hobby into a job which I want to avoid. 

This happened to me with Discus.  It was small scale only three spawning pairs at the peek of me keeping them.  But, everything was manual.  At the time I had about 35-40 tanks and all manually maintained.  Out of those tanks at any given time about 6 aquariums had Discus in them.  I remember the day well, all day thinking I need to get home to cut the grass (It takes about 90 minutes with a tractor) it had been raining for a couple days and finally dried out enough to cut.  I also was going to my daughter’s basketball game (missing the game wasn’t an option) I really enjoyed watching her play and didn’t miss a game in 10 years. And I had three tanks of Discus fry all under 40 days old.  I said to myself, I’m done…. Never did another water change on a Discus fry tank.  A buddy had been begging to buy my adults.  That weekend I sold all my adults and all most of my juveniles and young adults to him.  I kept 8 young adults.  Over the next 8-10 years those would spawn in a community tank.  I never tried to raise the fry.  

[PineSong]

On 6/4/2022 at 3:26 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I definitely understand what you mean when you say there's a line between it being a job and being a hobby.  I think something like having too many tanks really does hurt a lot of hobbyists. It also can be down to perspective and how you want to view the work. If you focus on making time to enjoy the glass box, maybe that makes it something a job won't ever become.... 

Great topic, @Cinnebuns.  When I was having to sort guppy fry every couple of days, it felt like a job. I decided to reduce the amount of breeding I am doing to prevent constant sorting. If I want something like more red chili endlers, I will just buy them, and I will only breed the fish I'm interested in seeing "how will these fry turn out?" like variable guppies, so I'm getting the most enjoyment out of the chores that are involved.

In my own experience, monetizing my hobbies or involving other people's expectations in them turns enjoyment into dread. If I want to knit a sweater or plant a garden it's 100% fun hobby, but if someone asks me to do the same thing for $XXX now I hate the feeling that I 'must' do it and that makes it a job. 

Last but not least, I want my hobby to be easy. I don't want to keep fish that are hard or tricky in any way. Easy to feed, easy water parameters, and peaceful. Just like I don't knit with splitty yarn or sew with stretchy knits or grow persnickety plants, as much as I admire when other people do!

I love seeing the tricky fish others are into and learning about spawning them, raising the fry, etc. but I enjoy watching it like you might enjoy watching football but not want to play 😉 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

It was my intention when I started my 20 gallon tank to only have 1 tank. I intentionally picked 2 species (Harlequins and Otos) that were deemed peaceful and "very hard to breed". I didn't want to breed, I just wanted a pretty tank to maintain and watch the fish. Nature had other plans and Otos for whatever reason multiplied. They were a lot of work to raise- and I personally find it very hard to just let nature take its course in my house (outside I can let things be). So I caught all the ones I could and raised them best I could with no prior or even a lot of current knowledge I could find specifically on raising them. 

Now I have 5 tanks- but I see the line- and it's here and I'm sitting comfortably behind it. Only 2 tanks now dedicated to Otos (1 sits empty "just in case" we get more) so I can't blame them for the expansion 😉-  What's funny is I've noticed I don't have a lot of time to just sit and watch my tanks which had been my intention when I started the hobby again- I spend the vast majority of my time with them hands in the water- what I didn't expect to find- that this is my favorite part. I love the maintentance. I love checking in with them every day. I can compact the time and only take about 20 minutes- or I can spend hours tinkering. During that time I don't spend 1 second thinking about negative things (unless it's tank related- but not nearly as heavy as the negativity outside my front door)- it's a meditation, a ritual- a cleansing and positive experience every day. Something to be proud of- something that can always be counted as a positive. A quote comes to mind whenever I think of my pets, "When I count my blessings, I count you twice."

[Cinnebuns]

On 6/4/2022 at 9:26 AM, PineSong said:

In my own experience, monetizing my hobbies or involving other people's expectations in them turns enjoyment into dread.

Fully agree. That was completely my experience with music. Once I started getting paid for it my mind changed from "this is fun" to "this is a job."  I never thought of other people's expectations but that's so true too and I can see that in all my past and precious hobbies. 

 

On 6/4/2022 at 10:01 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

what I didn't expect to find- that this is my favorite part. I love the maintentance.

It's funny but that's the same for me. Thats why everyone's line will be so drastically different. Some people enjoy maintenance while others view it as work. I actually sometimes will feel an itch to do maintenance and get frustrated if there's none to do lol

[Patrick_G]

I’ve been thinking about auto water change systems. For any tank over about 20 gallons water changes become a big deal. At the 40-75 gallon size you get to the point where your carrying 6-12 five gallons buckets of water through the house or you’re running hose for the python. It’s definitely starting to fall into the work category for me. I’m still using 5 gallon buckets, I’m going to order a python and see how that goes. 

[Cinnebuns]

On 6/4/2022 at 2:38 PM, Patrick_G said:

I’ve been thinking about auto water change systems. For any tank over about 20 gallons water changes become a big deal. At the 40-75 gallon size you get to the point where your carrying 6-12 five gallons buckets of water through the house or you’re running hose for the python. It’s definitely starting to fall into the work category for me. I’m still using 5 gallon buckets, I’m going to order a python and see how that goes. 

I rarely use my 5 gallon bucket because I have a hard time lifting it. I usually use a 2.5 gallon bucket. Then again, my largest tank is only 29 gallons and most are 10s. 

[PineSong]

On 6/4/2022 at 2:17 PM, Cinnebuns said:

It's funny but that's the same for me. Thats why everyone's line will be so drastically different. Some people enjoy maintenance while others view it as work. I actually sometimes will feel an itch to do maintenance and get frustrated if there's none to do lol

Yes, I love gravel vacuuming and have to stop myself from doing it too often. 

@Patrick_G, I can see how hauling that much water would be very job-like. In my lottery-winning dreams, I picture adding a really nice sunporch to my house where the water could go straight from the tanks to the garden. 

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/4/2022 at 1:02 PM, Cinnebuns said:

I rarely use my 5 gallon bucket because I have a hard time lifting it. I usually use a 2.5 gallon bucket. Then again, my largest tank is only 29 gallons and most are 10s. 

I forget who, they said they just used an old 1/2 gal milk carton or a large measuring cup/bowl.

[Patrick_G]

On 6/4/2022 at 4:16 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

forget who, they said they just used an old 1/2 gal milk carton or a large measuring cup/bowl.

I use a little tiny bucket and a houseplant watering can for my 3 gallon tanks. One is literally on the counter next to a sink, so no bucket necessary, It doesn’t get any easier. 🙂 

 

[Cinnebuns]

On 6/4/2022 at 6:16 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I forget who, they said they just used an old 1/2 gal milk carton or a large measuring cup/bowl.

Before I got a tank larger than 10 gallons I was using a 1 gallon ice cream bucket

[modified lung]

My day job and my hobby are both raising fish. But it's easy for me to separate the two.

My favorite parts of the hobby is experimenting and learning new stuff. That's how I cull the existential boredom. But at my job, although they give me a lot of freedom, I can't do whatever I want. It has to be "relevant to the business model" or some nonsense like that.

[OnlyGenusCaps]

What a great, and I think important topic, @Cinnebuns!  Especially when one gets involved in clubs or forums like this, there is a natural tendency to encourage others - which leads to some, in their new found excitement, taking on more than they might have wanted to.  I can get like this all on my own, but I've seen this happen to others often.  The one thing about MAS that can sometimes trouble me is the not too subtle pushing of folks to expand their hobby. 

This thread really hit home for me as well as someone who recently underwent a pretty serious hobby transition.  I was heavily involved in the exotic plant community, specializing in carnivorous plants.  I had 3 grow rooms in my basement, each with different climate control systems to mimic conditions on different parts of the planet to best match the conditions different plants prefer.  For various reasons, it all started to feel like work.  At some point, I decided I needed to scale back.  I stepped ways from my board appointments, and scaled back my plant keeping dramatically.  I'm now down to just a few.

As I expand my fish and frog keeping, I am trying to be far more cognizant of my relationship with this as a hobby.  I'm not sure I am succeeding, and I didn't when I was first seriously expanding this hobby - which is why I still have a 300 gallon custom acrylic aquarium that is not set up a year later.  The cost of error seems so high...  That said, over the years I have come to realize that projects, and more broadly striving to accomplish/achieve more is something I genuinely enjoy.  I suppose what I need to be better about is think about what the maintenance, which always seems burdensome, is like once the project is done. 

Speaking of...

On 6/4/2022 at 2:38 PM, Patrick_G said:

I’ve been thinking about auto water change systems. For any tank over about 20 gallons water changes become a big deal.

I can't recommend an AWC enough.  For me it takes what feels like the most burdensome aspect of keeping aquatic environments out of the equation.  I certainly wouldn't have as many or as large of tanks as I do were it not for AWC systems.  My one tank not on one, is a 42 and I have been trying to figure out how I can get that hooked up to one.  For me, AWC is a game changer in my ability to enjoy this hobby.  Full stop. 

[Cinnebuns]

On 6/5/2022 at 7:33 AM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

That said, over the years I have come to realize that projects, and more broadly striving to accomplish/achieve more is something I genuinely enjoy. 

Same here which can create its own problem. That's the major issue I had with stepping back in hard-core gaming. I actually enjoyed some of the parts that made it feel like a job. It's such a dangerously slippery slope tho that can crash faster than you expect. I feel like people like you and me that get enjoyment out of this have to watch the line the most because of how easy it is to crash. 

[BuzzDaddy21]

On 6/4/2022 at 3:38 PM, Patrick_G said:

auto water change systems.

With only 6 tanks, a AWCS didn`t seem practical plus it would be very difficult. I hated changing water/gravel vac every week to the point of quitting because it became a job. I couldn`t enjoy the hobby. (This was part of the reason I left 30 years ago.) I had fish /plants dying and couldn`t keep water conditions stable, my first step was to quit listening to those so-called experts. After completely changing 5 of 6 tanks, I don`t change water or gravel vac. now and when I service the filters, that is almost the only time new water is added. I want to enjoy my aquariums and not have it become a job. I`m able to do that now without a lot of maintenance. 😜    

[Biotope Biologist]

On 6/3/2022 at 11:25 PM, Cinnebuns said:

I used to be a hard-core gamer in world of warcraft in some top 100 guilds in the world. Eventually I decided to play the game casually but I had a hard time transitioning from treating the game like a job to treating it like a game. That transition taught me something. It taught me that if I'm playing for fun, then I should never feel forced to do a particular task. 

 

I connect to this deeply. Although I’ve never been able to transition back. That fear sits in the back of my mind with every hobby. I played “StarCraft II” as a fellow blizz kid and became rather good at it. In fact I was top 20 in North America server good and top 10 Zerg. Looking back that still feels very weird to say. But I was scouted by Team Liquid. Had no idea who they were. At the mention of practice 3x a week moving to 5x a week upon being accepted by the rest of the team, it was all too much. I have not played that game since that day. As soon as I thought of it as work it lost all passion in my mind.

I approach hobbies with that in mind. I strive to be good, it’s the competitive nature in me. And the scientist in me researches all things at length. But I can’t turn anything I do into monetary value. It makes it a chore. And as others have said the not so subtle push from friends and family to turn it into a career, makes it that much harder to delineate these things. I have a lot of hobbies, I am a old fashioned renaissance man. But people often forget how taxing it is to turn a hobby into a career. How unrewarding monetary value is versus personal gain. I have friends who were successful at turning their hobbies into profession, but I don’t envy their existence.

 

I got out of fish keeping for a while. I needed to change the way I thought about it. I took fish death as a personal attack on my abilities. I see people writing posts here who feel the same. But being in the industry professionally changed that idea. It’s hard losing a pet, but as long as you do everything in your power to make them happy than you have succeeded. 

 

[BeeD]

Previous version came off preachy. I was only speaking for myself. Rephrasing... To me it's just time. Time is money. If a hobby is hard, okay. If I do it 8 hours a day and make no money, then it's like having a job and it just isn't practical. Otherwise I'll put up with a lot.

Then again I'm really not that ambitious with my  tanks. I set them up so that I can go months just feeding them and enjoying them, occasionally cleaning a sponge filter, which allows me to make money and work on my future.

Edited June 6, 2022 by BrettD

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

On 6/4/2022 at 12:25 AM, Cinnebuns said:

I used to be a hard-core gamer in world of warcraft in some top 100 guilds in the world. Eventually I decided to play the game casually but I had a hard time transitioning from treating the game like a job to treating it like a game. That transition taught me something. It taught me that if I'm playing for fun, then I should never feel forced to do a particular task. 

I also used to be a professional clasical/jazz percussionist. I remember the day I had to go to rehearsal and said out loud "*sigh* it's time to go to work."  Until that moment I had never thought of music as work and never thought it possible. 

These 2 experiences have shaped how I view the line between hobby and job. This line is different for everyone but I believe it is important to think about where that line is for you. Not doing so can cause you to view your hobby as a job and decrease your enjoyment of it, or, if it is a job, cause you to forget what you love about it and forget to keep your hobby alive. 

For me, it comes down to choice. In a job you have much fewer choices with much more severe consequences. You don't do the work, you risk your job, you don't make money, and more bad follows. In a hobby there is still consequences but often not as dramatic. 

A great example for me happened tonight, which I mentioned in another thread. I was super tired and my cories decided to start to spawn. If it was my livelihood to raise fish you better bet I wouldn't have questioned that decision and would have stayed awake to collect eggs, but because it is my hobby I had a choice. This night I did stay up to collect eggs because I chose to, but there have been many nights I went to sleep. I believe if I were to force myself to collect when I do not CHOOSE to then my mindset would slowly turn my hobby into a job which I want to avoid. 

I'm interested to hear how others view this and how they manage it. Like is said, everyone's line will be in a different place and in a different shape, but everyone has one. How does yours look?

If I am not enjoying the process I don't do it and sometimes find something else to replace it. In the fish room I generally keep some sort of new project going every 6-12 months or so because that is how I keep up my enjoyment. This weekend is setting up a 47" diameter x 12" high folding dog pool as a daphnia pond experiment. I am looking forward to seeing how that turns out along with the new group of 2" hairy puffers just added to that not yet successful breeding project up here. 

use lots of live plants, and bigger water volumes by doing over flow sump systems in a rack on most  tanks I have. This limits my need for heavy water changes or longer maintenance days, I use auto feeders to make sure everyone gets a set schedule of a set portion of mixed dry staple foods, and use timers for my lights. The fishroom tasks that are not automated are mostly optional.  I don't really need to rinse filter media or change water for 14 days or so but I often do so every week ish. I also run a temperature regulated faucet. When i do change water its a matter of a fraction of a second to get the water temperature where i want it for refilling. The lack of a need to do things that are labor intensive too often  really takes the stress out of the equation for me and keeps it all much more enjoyable, 

With the exception of feeding fry when I decide to raise them, I mostly only watch the tanks daily and note behaviors of everyone to myself then do optional feedings of worms, shrimp, crayfish or frozen foods when I am down there and the room runs itself otherwise. I have left on a vacation for 17 days with no issues to any of t he tanks. I just did my 25% water changes skimmed some of the floating plants off the surface, rinsed the sponges out, and refilled the autofeeders. Fry feeding, if it were an all the time thing ,would be a job for me, an enjoyable job, but a job nonetheless. 

The most stressful portion of the fishroom is if i ever ship anything out in trade etc. It always takes a long time to get completed and is much harder than I think it will be when I am working at it.

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/10/2022 at 10:26 PM, mountaintoppufferkeeper said:

If I am not enjoying the process I don't do it and sometimes find something else to replace it. In the fish room I generally keep some sort of new project going every 6-12 months or so because that is how I keep up my enjoyment.

Definitely the way I do things as well.  I try to evolve my tanks instead of add / subtract them.  It's an interesting challenge to work within the constraints of what you have and to try to make something so different than what you've had setup for a while. To make something new, unique, and motivating. 

[sumplkrum]

My tanks are always an experiment.
The experiment may be 'breeding fish', or it may be 'can I get this stable enough that I barely have to do anything?'

It's an exploration. A low-key seeking of knowledge.
There are goals, but none of them are life-changing commitments.

There are chores involved the same as there would be for anything. If your hobby is cars there's a mountain of stuff to maintain and pay for. If you like music or art, you have to practice to maintain them. If you like gaming, you're always putting time into playing or coordinating with others for group events. ... There's always a cost in time or money - usually both.

Most hobbies are a choice you earn nothing from. In most cases everything is an investment with some intangible benefit. Thus an enjoyment or fulfillment.

[KaylynnWall]

This debate about turning a hobby into a career is fascinating.  Fish keeping has always been a passion of mine, and lately I've been wondering if I could take it to the next level.

On the one hand, it would be amazing to dedicate my work to something I love.  Who wouldn't want to get paid to geek out about water chemistry and exotic fish all day?  But on the other hand, there's the risk of burning out on your passion or facing the pressure of deadlines and client expectations.

For those of you who have made the leap from hobbyist to professional, any advice for a newbie like me?  Was the transition smooth sailing, or did you hit some choppy waters?  Also, if anyone has recommendations for good online resources or even https://www.veterinaryschoolsu.com/ to learn more about the professional side of aquatics, I'd love to hear them!

Edited April 2 by KaylynnWall