How do stores set up ro and de-chlorine systems ?

[anewbie]

I'm trying to figure out how to setup a large de-chlorine and ro system for a fish room. What I envision is two units with two storage tanks (of around 500 gallons) one for ro water and another for water with the chlorine removed. There will then be piping from these storage tanks to two rooms with a number of aquariums and some way to pressure these tanks so you can turn a faucet and the water will flow from them. I can't find any sort of list of equipment needed for these sort of units. Most of the ro units i find are the small ones and even with their storage tank they expect you to take a pail and fill a pail from the storage tank to carry to the aquarium. Surely a store has a more sophisticated setup. I can't even find what sort of unit i need to remove chlorine from the water and then store it in a storage tank (is that like a one stage ro unit?). My plan is to mix ro water with de-chlorinated water for the target hardness required by a specific tank (i.e, black water tank would get nearly straight ro water while a clear water tank might be 70:30 and a live bearer tank might be 0:100 (ro:de-chlorinated).... The closest i found is a consulting company that adds ro water to homes for drinking but it is crazy expensive (for the consultant overhead) and not exactly suitable for aquariums.

[Zenzo]

On 1/24/2022 at 1:04 PM, anewbie said:

I'm trying to figure out how to setup a large de-chlorine and ro system for a fish room. What I envision is two units with two storage tanks (of around 500 gallons) one for ro water and another for water with the chlorine removed. There will then be piping from these storage tanks to two rooms with a number of aquariums and some way to pressure these tanks so you can turn a faucet and the water will flow from them. I can't find any sort of list of equipment needed for these sort of units. Most of the ro units i find are the small ones and even with their storage tank they expect you to take a pail and fill a pail from the storage tank to carry to the aquarium. Surely a store has a more sophisticated setup. I can't even find what sort of unit i need to remove chlorine from the water and then store it in a storage tank (is that like a one stage ro unit?). My plan is to mix ro water with de-chlorinated water for the target hardness required by a specific tank (i.e, black water tank would get nearly straight ro water while a clear water tank might be 70:30 and a live bearer tank might be 0:100 (ro:de-chlorinated).... The closest i found is a consulting company that adds ro water to homes for drinking but it is crazy expensive (for the consultant overhead) and not exactly suitable for aquariums.

I would imagine that most stores would not have a system like this, as it seems to be quite costly. In fact, with the exception of a high-end specialty reef store, I would think that no other fish store would have a system this complex.

To achieve what you are wanting, you may have to consult with a water company that manages drinking water or some commercial application where the expense of the equipment and system makes more sense.

Good luck, and I am curious to see what you are able to find. 

[Colu]

He filter that you can use with auto water change system

[Biotope Biologist]

On 1/24/2022 at 6:52 PM, Zenzo said:

I would imagine that most stores would not have a system like this, as it seems to be quite costly. In fact, with the exception of a high-end specialty reef store, I would think that no other fish store would have a system this complex.

To achieve what you are wanting, you may have to consult with a water company that manages drinking water or some commercial application where the expense of the equipment and system makes more sense.

Good luck, and I am curious to see what you are able to find. 

I agree with Zenzo here RO for that large of a system will be costly and time consuming.
 

I do know at big box chain store we bought 10 gallon buckets of dechlorinating crystals meant for pool applications. This might be the most cost effective. Everything else I have worked with costs upwards of $10K so it’s not really useful even for the most dedicated enthusiasts.
 

chlorine is such an outdated way of keeping water clean. But that’s a side tangent for another day.

[ScottieB]

I see what your saying, look up mixing stations on Reef2reef.

I have a 200g tank plumbed with a 90g per day RO and a float valve so it refills automatically. That water can pumped around my fish room by a simple pump and a hose or diverted into a 50g container that I mix salt in. So basically I have a couple hundred gallons of pure RO water and 50g of mixed up salt ready at any time. With a single switch, pvc pipe and some ball valves I can move a lot of water around. 

You can do the same on a larger scale if you needed. One with RO water and one with straight tap water that you add dechlorinator too. I’ve seen gravity fed units too so nothing has to be pressurized. There’s lots of possibilities out there so, yeah it can be done 
 

 

[Dwayne Brown]

On 1/24/2022 at 8:06 PM, Biotope Biologist said:

 

I do know at big box chain store we bought 10 gallon buckets of dechlorinating crystals meant for pool applications.

I will second this from what friends of mine have told me. Apparently the big box stores would either use pool crystals, bucket of dechlorinator, or sometimes a company made dechlorination solution. From what I have been told for the most part all tanks and systems are connected and a central pump with a filter (or not)  just cycles water throughout all the tanks. Maybe you could look into a way to pump ro filtered water into a refurbished hot water tank(s) for storage? That way you could rig up a way to connect them and use a hose line to fill up tanks. Other then this less than ideal solution I can't think of anything that would cost less than 7k. 

[anewbie]

What does a reef store use for their salt water thank; they need a large amount of ro water. In my case I want to be able to turn a faucet to get ro water from the basement.... that is the solution I'm seeking; the pvc piping is already in place so the only cost is the ro unit (and de-chlorine unit) and whatever will apply the appropriate pressure to the storage tank to move the water that far with decent pressure.

--

what sort of system does  a large store like aquarium-coop use for their large fish room and show room ?

-

For the dechlorinated water (the unit link for example); don't i want to keep the heavy medals for the plants ?

Edited January 25, 2022 by anewbie

[anewbie]

On 1/24/2022 at 11:13 PM, ScottieB said:

I see what your saying, look up mixing stations on Reef2reef.

I have a 200g tank plumbed with a 90g per day RO and a float valve so it refills automatically. That water can pumped around my fish room by a simple pump and a hose or diverted into a 50g container that I mix salt in. So basically I have a couple hundred gallons of pure RO water and 50g of mixed up salt ready at any time. With a single switch, pvc pipe and some ball valves I can move a lot of water around. 

You can do the same on a larger scale if you needed. One with RO water and one with straight tap water that you add dechlorinator too. I’ve seen gravity fed units too so nothing has to be pressurized. There’s lots of possibilities out there so, yeah it can be done 
 

 

The way I would like it to work - is i turn a faucet and the water flows out. The pvc piping is already in place. I don't want a manual pump that is switched on/off for many reasons. The way i envision it working is {ro,dechlorine unit}->{ro storage tank, dechlorinated tank}->???? (how do you pressurize the tanks so the water can flow up 2 floors)->{ro pipe,dechlorinated pipe}->faucets. There are a lot of reasons i would like a design of this nature if feasible. I can go into details later if curious but that aren't too relevant to end goal. A secondary desire is for some sort of alert (phone text for example) when filters on ro/dechlorinated unit need to be changed - after all i don't want to have to test the water daily to see if the chlorine has been removed...

[BuzzDaddy21]

On 1/25/2022 at 5:04 AM, anewbie said:

turn a faucet and the water flows out

I wonder how much pressure would be needed to lift water 20 - 30 feet, how is that pressure maintained (Air compressor) what about an electric pump there are some good units, probably an app to turn on with a phone or what is used to turn on a lawn sprinkler system they move a lot of water. 

I would have to think about this and what would be the most cost effective.  

[ScottieB]

Mmm ok. 
so pushing water against that kind of head pressure is feasible with a big, external pump but that doesn’t solve your primary issue of having the water come out a tap. The RO holding tank and even the Dechlor tank is doable but pressurizing the whole system is tough. 
Something that you might look into would not necessarily mean pressurizing the system but using a specific pump designed to pull well water and circulate it to a house.

something like a Grundfos pump

[gardenman]

Both Flip Aquatics (freshwater) and Tidal Gardens (saltwater) have old YouTube videos showing their systems that use RO and water storage options. Both have recently (last year or two, maybe three?) finished equipping new buildings/facilities and have shown detailed descriptions of the systems they've got in place. Now, both are larger scale than what you have in mind, but they'd be good places to look to get an idea or two. LR Bretz has a how to install an RO system video from 2017 on his YouTube channel. I remember also seeing a video of his where he'd bought/been given a commercial RO unit that he was planning to install. I don't know if there are videos featuring that installation or not. 

[Biotope Biologist]

I would think that in your case then having the storage tanks before the sink and an inline pump to the sink as @ScottieB described would be your best bet. The issue with RO is it has a very specific volume per hour push through limit that cannot be pressurized. It’s very similar to how UV sterilization works if you try to exceed the manufacture specs on volume per hour limit you get diminishing returns.

 

having like a float valve in the tanks connected to an electronic switch similar to a fuel cell for cars would be good with the tap always on but the RO system connected to the switch so that whenever you get low on RO water it automatically pumps into your tanks to another float valve limit. 
 

Then you could also use the larger capacity RO system @Colu suggested but not break the bank on commercial RO systems

 

If you watch aquarium coop’s video behind the scenes you can see they do things the old fashioned way at least in the Edmonds store. I don’t know the process at the expansion. 

 

[anewbie]

If the holding tank is large enough Would the weight of the water generate enough pressure to push the water out ?

[Biotope Biologist]

On 1/25/2022 at 8:06 AM, anewbie said:

If the holding tank is large enough Would the weight of the water generate enough pressure to push the water out ?

Most likely not as the pipes will likely have to travel horizontally then up to the sink. But I don’t think necessarily you need a big pump. If I’m not mistaken they sell small inline pumps for water-use in camper vans that may be enough for what you need. You only need a flow rate of maybe 1.5 gpm out of the pump especially since you likely won’t have alot of travel distance in the pipe.

[anewbie]

the room with the ro unit and storage tank has no sink; you keep saying i don't have a lot of travel distance; but the piping is at least 30 feet long from the storage tank to the fish room; with at least 18 feet of vertical movement.

Edited January 25, 2022 by anewbie

[Biotope Biologist]

Ah then the flow rate will have to likely be stronger.
 

In my head I was envisioning a water closet that shared a wall with the fish room.

[anewbie]

Yes the mechanical room i the basement will house these units and storage tank. The piping will then go upstairs.

[KaitieG]

I know NOTHING about plumbing, but we do have a well, and it has a pressure tank that's in our basement.  Is that something that could work for you?  You can find examples just by googling "Pressure tank"

[anewbie]

On 1/25/2022 at 1:04 PM, KaitieG said:

I know NOTHING about plumbing, but we do have a well, and it has a pressure tank that's in our basement.  Is that something that could work for you?  You can find examples just by googling "Pressure tank"

I'm not sure that is the right solution as from my reading the water going into the tank is pressured; in this case the input is from an ro unit which is low pressure; for a well (as an example) you have a pump that pushes the water from the well into the tank and the pump applies the pressure...

[ScottieB]

So more thoughts on this. If we look at two separate issues:

1. RO/Dechlorinators and water storage - Easily managed with a standard RO unit like these and the declorinators are similar, separate units like this one. Water tanks are easy to find at places like tractor supply if you google water holding tanks you can find all different sizes and shapes. I used This one  because it was large and was made to fit through standard doors since I put it my basement. 

2. Getting water the up to where you need it is the challenge. The head pressure (distance) can be overcome with pumps like this one or similar. The chart on most of the descriptions indicated Max head pressure which you could calculate using online calculators but with 30 feet of distance and 18 feet of vertical including a bunch of bends you might have like 40-50 feet. One method might be just run the water in closed loop from the tank up to where you need it? Have a PVC valve which you could open to essentially bleed water out of the loop. Another alternative (and its what I use to move water from my basement to my 300g display for water changes) is a simple outlet and a wireless remote switch. Its more like having water on demand. Theres a delay in getting the pump running and water up to where its going but its pretty simple to set up. 

I'll keep thinking about it and see what else I can come up with.

[anewbie]

On 1/25/2022 at 2:51 PM, ScottieB said:

So more thoughts on this. If we look at two separate issues:

1. RO/Dechlorinators and water storage - Easily managed with a standard RO unit like these and the declorinators are similar, separate units like this one. Water tanks are easy to find at places like tractor supply if you google water holding tanks you can find all different sizes and shapes. I used This one  because it was large and was made to fit through standard doors since I put it my basement. 

2. Getting water the up to where you need it is the challenge. The head pressure (distance) can be overcome with pumps like this one or similar. The chart on most of the descriptions indicated Max head pressure which you could calculate using online calculators but with 30 feet of distance and 18 feet of vertical including a bunch of bends you might have like 40-50 feet. One method might be just run the water in closed loop from the tank up to where you need it? Have a PVC valve which you could open to essentially bleed water out of the loop. Another alternative (and its what I use to move water from my basement to my 300g display for water changes) is a simple outlet and a wireless remote switch. Its more like having water on demand. Theres a delay in getting the pump running and water up to where its going but its pretty simple to set up. 

I'll keep thinking about it and see what else I can come up with.

This is helpful but there is a key issue with how to get the water to the rooms. The water has to flow continous on demand because i want one of the large tank to use a drip system where approx 1.5 GPH is flowing into the tank and then down the drain via the sump. I don't think we can form a continous loop with the water tank. Also looking at the tank you linked - while I like the dimension of the 500 gallon tank; I don't see a way it could be used for this application. That is the input from the ro unit would have to go to the top to flow down into the tank but there is no way to auto-shut the thing off; and while you could connect a pump to the output and use a smart switch to turn it on (i use the ones controlled via the phone); it wouldn't flow continously and it would be error prone (for example what happens if you close the faucet before you stop the pump - then pressure is going to build up until something gives.

[gardenman]

The phrase "continuous on demand" has me a bit confused. They're kind of opposites.  If you want a continuous flow then something like the pressure tank suggested earlier makes more sense. The way they work is they're connected to a larger pump that pumps water into the tank until it reaches a pressure set by a pressure switch. The one on my house is a 20/40 switch.  They come in a variety of PSI ratings though with 40/60 being more common. When the pressure in the tank drops below 20 PSI the pump comes on until the pressure in the tank is at 40 PSI again. This lets the pump run intermittently rather than nonstop minimizing wear on the pump and ensuring a constant stream of water in a certain pressure range. If you want the water on demand rather than continuously, then a remotely operated pump would be a better option, perhaps using a smart plug or timer. 

[anewbie]

On 1/25/2022 at 7:18 PM, gardenman said:

The phrase "continuous on demand" has me a bit confused. They're kind of opposites.  If you want a continuous flow then something like the pressure tank suggested earlier makes more sense. The way they work is they're connected to a larger pump that pumps water into the tank until it reaches a pressure set by a pressure switch. The one on my house is a 20/40 switch.  They come in a variety of PSI ratings though with 40/60 being more common. When the pressure in the tank drops below 20 PSI the pump comes on until the pressure in the tank is at 40 PSI again. This lets the pump run intermittently rather than nonstop minimizing wear on the pump and ensuring a constant stream of water in a certain pressure range. If you want the water on demand rather than continuously, then a remotely operated pump would be a better option, perhaps using a smart plug or timer. 

Since the input is an RO unit which will not be able to meet the demand of the pump; it sounds like I would require two tanks; one to store RO water; and one to be pressurized ? Is this correct ? I.e, the RO unit fills a tank; then i can pump water from that tank to another tank at the desired pressure. I don't see a way to do it with just one tank as you described the process unless i am missing something (unless there is an RO unit that can actually produce water fast enough to meet the needs of the pump - or maybe the pump is very slow and it is just building up pressure in the pressurize tank ?

Edited January 26, 2022 by anewbie

[gardenman]

On 1/25/2022 at 8:23 PM, anewbie said:

Since the input is an RO unit which will not be able to meet the demand; it sounds like I would require two tanks; one to store RO water; and one to be pressurized ? Is this correct ? I.e, the RO unit fills a tank; then i can pump water from that tank to another tank at the desired pressure. I don't see a way to do it with just one tank as you described the process unless i am missing something (unless there is an RO unit that can actually produce water fast enough to meet the needs of the pump - or maybe the pump is very slow and it is just building up pressure in the pressurize tank ?

If your only continuous output is the 1.5 GPH output and your RO system makes more than 1.5 GPH then you wouldn't have an issue with a single holding tank. The pressure tank would not be a holding tank. You'd have the holding tank collecting the RO water, then a pump would be plumbed into that as though it were a well, then the output from the pump would go to the pressure tank. In essence you're making your RO water holding tank into a well. Then the pump pressurizes the water and moves it to the pressure tank for distribution. Home Depot sells the pressure tanks for around $180 for a 20-gallon size and the pumps are around $270. So, for less than $500 you could create your pressurized system. You'd need an RO holding tank larger than 20 gallons, but it wouldn't have to be huge if you're only using 1.5 GPH. 

[anewbie]

On 1/25/2022 at 7:36 PM, gardenman said:

If your only continuous output is the 1.5 GPH output and your RO system makes more than 1.5 GPH then you wouldn't have an issue with a single holding tank. The pressure tank would not be a holding tank. You'd have the holding tank collecting the RO water, then a pump would be plumbed into that as though it were a well, then the output from the pump would go to the pressure tank. In essence you're making your RO water holding tank into a well. Then the pump pressurizes the water and moves it to the pressure tank for distribution. Home Depot sells the pressure tanks for around $180 for a 20-gallon size and the pumps are around $270. So, for less than $500 you could create your pressurized system. You'd need an RO holding tank larger than 20 gallons, but it wouldn't have to be huge if you're only using 1.5 GPH. 

THat is essentailly what I said - 2 tanks - the holding tanks and the pressure tnak - actually 4 tanks - because i also need a pair for dechlorinated water.  The scale is  a bit off - I actually need around 4 GPH continous and then more water during water changes for the tanks that are not on the drip system. I would guess I need at most around 200 gallons in an hour; so maybe a 200 gallon holding tank for ro and then a 50 gallon pressure tank. That would actually give me around 250 gallons - or something along that line - i have to think about the actual amount i need but i guess as long as the holding tank is large enough to meet my needs the pressure tank can be small since it can constantly refill itself from the holding tank. What sort of pump did you actually use? I.e., how does the pump auto shut off - is that circuit in the pressure tank ?